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The Biblical Propitiation Of God's Wrath, and PSA.

Zaatar71

Active Member
No one is refuting any of this, and they should not desire to-
We may not artificially separate redemption as ransom from the guilt of sin from the other categories in which the work of Christ is to be interpreted. These categories are but aspects from which the work of Christ once for all accomplished must be viewed and therefore they may be said to interpermeate one another. This fact as it applies to redemption appears, for example, in Romans 3:24-26. "Being justified freely," Paul says, "by his grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus: whom God hath set forth a propitiation through faith in his blood . . . to show forth his righteousness at the present time, in order that he might be just and the justifier of him who is of the faith of Jesus." Here not only are redemption and propitiation collocated but there is a combination of concepts bearing upon the intent and effect of Christ's work, and this shows how closely interrelated these various concepts are.

This passage exemplifies and confirms what other considerations establish, namely, that redemption from the guilt of sin must be construed in juridical terms analogous to those which must be applied to expiation, propitiation, and reconciliation.

Redemption from the power of sin may be called the triumphal aspect of redemption.

In his finished work Christ did something once for all respecting the power of sin and it is in virtue of this victory which he secured that the power of sin is broken in all those who are united to him. It is in this connection that a strand of New Testament teaching needs to be appreciated but which is frequently overlooked.

It is that not only is Christ regarded as having died for the believer but the believer is represented as having died in Christ and as having been raised up with him to newness of life.

This is the result of union with Christ. For by this union Christ is not only united to those who have been given to him but they are united with him. Hence not only did Christ die for them but they died in him and rose with him (cf. Rom. 6:1-10; 2 Cor. 5:14, 15; Eph. 2:1-7; Col. 3:1-4; I Pet. 4:1, 2).

It is this fact of having died with Christ in the efficacy of his death and of having risen with him in the power of his resurrection that insures for all the people of God deliverance from the dominion of sin. It supplies the ground for the exhortations "Even so reckon ye yourselves to be dead indeed to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 6:11) and gives force to the apodictic assurance, "Sin shall not have dominion over you" (Rom. 6:14). It is this fact of having died and risen with Christ, viewed as an implication of the death and resurrection of Christ once for all accomplished, that provides the basis of the sanctifying process. And it is constantly pleaded as the urge and incentive to sanctification in the practice of the believer.
 

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
@JonC

The mean of the word "propitiation is to turn aside or avoid something, particularly wrath or anger. I think this is evident in that it is in Christ we "escape the wrath to come". Jesus IS the Propitiation for the sins of the Wirld (the ONLY Propitiation).

The whole world of 1 Jn 2:2 is only comprised of them saved from wrath. It cannot apply to any who are currently under Gods wrath or died under His wrath. Christ cant be the propitiation for anyone under Gods wrath, impossible. These unbelievers are under Gods wrath Jn 3:36

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

These particular unbelieving will not see life, meaning never be saved unto life everlasting !
 

Zaatar71

Active Member
@JonC



The whole world of 1 Jn 2:2 is only comprised of them saved from wrath. It cannot apply to any who are currently under Gods wrath or died under His wrath. Christ cant be the propitiation for anyone under Gods wrath, impossible. These unbelievers are under Gods wrath Jn 3:36

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

These particular unbelieving will not see life, meaning never be saved unto life everlasting !
Yes Brightflame, thankful for your clear post and a correct understanding of biblical propitiation. It is actual and not merely potential.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Thanks for your response. You have offered your ideas on it!

God does both... he punishes sins either in the sinner, Divine wrath poured out directly resulting in second death,

or the Divine substitute. Penal Substitutionary Atonement, the biblical answer, not an "interpretation, but rather an exposition of the various texts many of which are contained in the PDF. No one here will be able to contest, or refute this PDF, or the sermon transcripts offered.
People who call this a theory in trying to explain away an exposition of the texts, fail big time from what I can see.
Thanks again for your participation on this thread.

Anyone who reads this thread, is welcome to quote any portion of what has been offered, the scriptures used, and then offer your response yo what you quote, and try and show how you think they missed the truth. I have not seen anyone ever do that.
Again, you ate welcome.


The problem with defining Penal Substitution Theory as "biblical" is the fact that it is foreign to the Bible (foreign to the text of Scripture). It was a reform of Aquinas' theory, but neither theory were derived from Scripture (it is secular philosophy where the theorist went to Scripture looking for support).

I just do not understand why penal substitution theorists find Scripture so inadequate.

The readon it is a theory has nothing to do with interpreting or explaining Scripture. Penal Substitution Theory adds to Scripture. Adding is not explaining.

For example, Jesus died for our sins. That is biblical. Penal Substitution Theory adds "instead of us'" and "experiencing God's wrath". That is not explanation but addition.

Scripture states that God will forgive sins upon repentance ("turning" to Him). Penal Substitution Theory holds that God is unable to forgive sins because doing so would be unjust per 16th century judicial philosophy, so God must punish sins in order to allow the wicked to escape punishment.

The word "biblical" should never be paired with Penal Substitution Theory. This is why most Christians reject Penal Substitution Theory. It is why many within reformed circles are rethinking the philosophy (it was a 16th century philosophy that is no longer considered valid, except as a holdover in a few religious cults).
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
@JonC



The whole world of 1 Jn 2:2 is only comprised of them saved from wrath. It cannot apply to any who are currently under Gods wrath or died under His wrath. Christ cant be the propitiation for anyone under Gods wrath, impossible. These unbelievers are under Gods wrath Jn 3:36

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

These particular unbelieving will not see life, meaning never be saved unto life everlasting !
I agree. My point was thar Penal Substitution Theory is foreign to the biblical text (foreign to "what is written"). Penal Substitution theorists rely on what other penal substitution theorists tell them (Note how much support is on this thread from men and how little from God). They test what they think the Bible teaches by what they think is taught in the Bible (as silly as that sounds).

The problem, of course, is the teachings of Penal Substitution Theory stands in opposition to what is actually written in the Bible (if you take God's Word as complete and accurate).
 

Zaatar71

Active Member
I agree. My point was thar Penal Substitution Theory is foreign to the biblical text (foreign to "what is written"). Penal Substitution theorists rely on what other penal substitution theorists tell them (Note how much support is on this thread from men and how little from God). They test what they think the Bible teaches by what they think is taught in the Bible (as silly as that sounds).

The problem, of course, is the teachings of Penal Substitution Theory stands in opposition to what is actually written in the Bible (if you take God's Word as complete and accurate).
These God called "men" understand the scriptures and have listed scriptures that teach this biblical truth.
Your 5 responses you have offered no scripture, which is strange as you suggest you are about "what is written"???
These"men"have offered more than 54 scriptures to zero you have offered.
You have not attempted to quote any of the material and offer on it.
Calling the teaching a theory, saying these men offering scripture is not bible teaching is a bit shallow, as it is God who has given these scriptures that these men understand a believe. trying to explain away the verses is not getting it done.
PSA has been the faith once delivered to the saints. Your inability to quote these "men" and demonstrate where they are off, is lacking and unless and until you can do that.....no one is following your ideas as far as we can see.
Your opinion stated here ...[This is why most Christians reject Penal Substitution Theory] is just your opinion, nothing more.
All Christians I know understand Jesus taking the penalty of the sins of His Covenant Children. Your idea of denying this and suggesting most Christians deny this...is far fetched.
 

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
I agree. My point was thar Penal Substitution Theory is foreign to the biblical text (foreign to "what is written"). Penal Substitution theorists rely on what other penal substitution theorists tell them (Note how much support is on this thread from men and how little from God). They test what they think the Bible teaches by what they think is taught in the Bible (as silly as that sounds).

The problem, of course, is the teachings of Penal Substitution Theory stands in opposition to what is actually written in the Bible (if you take God's Word as complete and accurate).
Im speaking of propitiation in 1 Jn 2:2 and why it excludes them under wrath !
 
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