The bumpy road to the partial openness of God

[glfredrick]

Hi Quantumfaith, hopefully you are just referring the the highlighted portion, as I expounded at some length.

There are two views of Omniscience currently in vogue. The classical view, God knows everything imaginable, and the more modern, God knows what He chooses to know. If God has chosen to know everything, past, present and future, then it follows that the future is really fixed and our choices are simply illusions, like the compatibilist saying the past determines the future. Similarly, if God ordains (meaning predestines) everything that comes to pass, again we have the doctrine of exhaustive determinism, and we do not ever make choices where we autonomously alter the outcome of our lives. So even if we only open the door a little bit, it directly attacks the under girding of Calvinism.

Anyway, that is how I see it.

Not much of a God who is limited in some way pertaining to the fulfillment of His divine purpose and will, is it?

Perhaps that is the issue... Lowering God to the point where He is manageable by rebellious human beings who are yet being enticed by the same enemy that worked on Eve in the Garden... "Did God truly say?" :BangHead:

 

[quantumfaith]

Hi Quantumfaith, hopefully you are just referring the the highlighted portion, as I expounded at some length.

There are two views of Omniscience currently in vogue. The classical view, God knows everything imaginable, and the more modern, God knows what He chooses to know. If God has chosen to know everything, past, present and future, then it follows that the future is really fixed and our choices are simply illusions, like the compatibilist saying the past determines the future. Similarly, if God ordains (meaning predestines) everything that comes to pass, again we have the doctrine of exhaustive determinism, and we do not ever make choices where we autonomously alter the outcome of our lives. So even if we only open the door a little bit, it directly attacks the under girding of Calvinism.

Anyway, that is how I see it.

Thank you, yes I was referring to the highlighted portion. Appreciate your response and your contributions.

 

[quantumfaith]

That was a good book. Ever read Hawking's "A Brief History of Time?"

Yes, GL, it has been several years, have not read his latest work, as it seems he continues to attempt, however subtlety, create a model of the cosmos, without the requirement of a beginning.

 

[quantumfaith]

Not much of a God who is limited in some way pertaining to the fulfillment of His divine purpose and will, is it?

Perhaps that is the issue... Lowering God to the point where He is manageable by rebellious human beings who are yet being enticed by the same enemy that worked on Eve in the Garden... "Did God truly say?" :BangHead:

GL, I "know" and "understand" your disposition against "free will" in any flavor, save that as it is defined by classical reformed theology, but it is certainly a logical argument that God can (if he so choose) "limit" himself in any manner he deems to so, if not, then He is not all powerful. I really do not think it is a "fair" allegation to level at others, that being, that any view of God's Sovereignty, other than "reformed" is a diminished view of that Sovereignty.

The classic he said/she said situation is erroneously applied with regard to Cals and (no names), whereas, we "no names" claim the Cals have a diminished view of the "love and justice" of God, while the Cals claim that we "no names" have a diminished view of His sovereignty. The truth, most likely, if we could actually "get inside" one another's heads, is that neither claim is actually true.

 

[JesusFan]

What if God had so ordained it that while he does know all possible outcomes to what could happen in any given situation, and has His divine plan for each different way a decision could go, has chosen to "blind" Himself to knowing what will actually be done until the person selects, choses, which way he will go, THAN God will "see" it and select the proper will/plan based upon that specific chose made out of all possible ones?
(Don't believe that is happening at all, but would someone teaching this "open" knowledge of God see it this way?)

 

[Van]

Hi JesusFan, please study Lamentations 3:19-26, and John 21 and tell me if scripture does indeed teach God has a new plan for us every morning because His lovingkindness never fails.

 

[quantumfaith]

What if God had so ordained it that while he does know all possible outcomes to what could happen in any given situation, and has His divine plan for each different way a decision could go, has chosen to "blind" Himself to knowing what will actually be done until the person selects, choses, which way he will go, THAN God will "see" it and select the proper will/plan based upon that specific chose made out of all possible ones?
(Don't believe that is happening at all, but would someone teaching this "open" knowledge of God see it this way?)

This is close to a "hybridization" between "openness" and molinism. At least, that is how I am reading your supposition.

 

[Cypress]

What if God had so ordained it that while he does know all possible outcomes to what could happen in any given situation, and has His divine plan for each different way a decision could go, has chosen to "blind" Himself to knowing what will actually be done until the person selects, choses, which way he will go, THAN God will "see" it and select the proper will/plan based upon that specific chose made out of all possible ones?
(Don't believe that is happening at all, but would someone teaching this "open" knowledge of God see it this way?)

The partially open view has God knowing everything that exists to be known. Also everything that is possible. Where we all on some level take issue with or are on some level surprised by the open view is when it states that the future does not exist to be known except the future that God has predetermined. This in many peoples estimation is where mans understanding of time leaves much to be desired as it relates to God. So to answer your question directly, someone teaching the open view would not teach that God blinds Himself to future knowledge .
As explained thus far by Van, I don't know if he has really made a clear distinction as to whether the future actions of free creatures is something knowable or not knowable in his bumpy path. Maybe I missed it, if so, somebody please refer me to it. Thanks

 

[Van]

My view, Cypress, is based on what scripture says. As you noted, where we all at some level take issue, is when we go beyond what scripture says and make claims about what we do not know. If we peel the onion of speculation and conjecture, we arrive at where such speculation was introduced in Christian theology from Greek metaphysics. Does the bible say God fulfills His prophecies, i.e He causes them to happen, He brings them about, which is right next door to He creates the future according to His purpose. And if that future includes outcomes that result from our autonomous choices, that is the future that God brings about. Either we stick with the Bible, or with the inventions of men. Whoever believes in Him will not perish. Sounds like a choice and an outcome God brings about.

 

[quantumfaith]

My view, Cypress, is based on what scripture says. As you noted, where we all at some level take issue, is when we go beyond what scripture says and make claims about what we do not know. If we peel the onion of speculation and conjecture, we arrive at where such speculation was introduced in Christian theology from Greek metaphysics. Does the bible say God fulfills His prophecies, i.e He causes them to happen, He brings them about, which is right next door to He creates the future according to His purpose. And if that future includes outcomes that result from our autonomous choices, that is the future that God brings about. Either we stick with the Bible, or with the inventions of men. Whoever believes in Him will not perish. Sounds like a choice and an outcome God brings about.

Van, I mean you no disprespect, but even after reading this, I still "don't get it", are there some articles scholarly and biblical that you could point me to, in order to more fully grasp?

 

[Van]

Can you be more specific on what you do not get? Does God foresee or fulfill prophecy. Is that the issue?

Prophets do not foresee, but make statements according to the Word of God they have received, and therefore can be said to "look forward toward the future" and relate the circumstance God says He will bring about.

Lets look at Matthew 13:14. "In there case, the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfulled which says, "You will keep on hearing but you will not understand; you will keep on seeing but will not perceive."

 

[Van]

If you think I simply found one obscure verse to pour my theology into, look up the following from many NT authors:
Mark 15:28
Luke 21:22,
John 12:38,
Acts 3:18,
James 2:23, and
Revelation 17:17.

All this fortune telling jazz is completely unbiblical.

 

[JesusFan]

what if God has apredetermined paln/will for each individual response possible in every decision being made, yet has "willed" Himself to "wait" until the other party chooses which action they will take, than he already predeternmined plan goes into actually effect?
God stays absolute control, as the path chosen by other party already he has foreordain what must now come to opass on the path, but He had to "see" which of the possible paths other chose to select?

In salvation..

God already has chosen, elected those he will to etrnal life, but based upon which time in the plan of God they chose to come aboard... God will have different plan for depending just when the elected person realises his election and chooses to act upon it!

Again, I do not believe in this, but this would seem to try to be a "workable" solution to open/closed view on Gods way of being Omnscience......

 

[Iconoclast]

Not much of a God who is limited in some way pertaining to the fulfillment of His divine purpose and will, is it?

Perhaps that is the issue... Lowering God to the point where He is manageable by rebellious human beings who are yet being enticed by the same enemy that worked on Eve in the Garden... "Did God truly say?" :BangHead:

Yes GL,
Satan keeps trying to undermine God,His Word,and His eternal purpose.They who do this need to learn the lesson on Dan4:35.

 

[Van]

JesusFan, I do not see the need to wade into pure speculation. You say God has elected individuals to eternal life before creation, but that is simply impossible because God says in passage after passage, He elects individuals during their lifetime. Why cling to one or two verses with a mistaken view, and nullify near a dozen verses that say it ain't so?

We must base our beliefs on what the bible says, rather than on speculation on what it does not say. We are to walk by faith and not lean on our own understanding based on speculation. Lets stick with what it says.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 says God chooses us through faith in the truth. We had no faith in the truth before we heard the gospel. When God chose Christ before the foundation of the world, He chose us in Him, not individually, but corporately, as the target group of His redemption plan, whoever believes in Christ.

 

[Gabriel Elijah]

Van—I almost hesitate to say anything else to you—b/c I don’t wont you to think that I dislike you as an individual or that I’m out to get you—b/c I’m not—just be careful with some of your teachings—at times you have some very good & deep thoughts---However your conclusions & personal interpretation of Scripture is often questionable at best! I know your retired—but have you ever considered taking some biblical/theological classes on the collegiate level—you don’t have to agree with everything that is taught—but it will allow you to bounce your ideas off trained professionals & they can help you smooth out some of your rough edges. Just a thought—peace my brother!

 

[Van]

Never met a Calvinist who did not disparage those who hold differing views, they need to study more, they deliberately twist scripture, and the latest comment is Satan keeps trying to undermine God word. ROFLOL

I have read, well at least looked through, several books written by Calvinists and found what I believe is shoddy work. On the other hand, my views are shared with many scholars, because everything I say I try to corroborate from commentary by folks with degrees in Bible Study or Theology.

Feel free to copy and paste a snippet from a published source that supports any of your doctrines, i.e T, U, L, and I. I will respond with why I think the view is not biblical.

But just to lob ad homenims my way simply advertises that Calvinism is largely supported by logical fallacies. Anyway, that is my take.

Final thought, you have posted more than once you are worried I will stop liking you.
As a professing Christian, when I render what I think you need, it is as if I was rendering aid to Christ. In other words, my lovingkindness toward all professing Christians is not conditioned on them treating me as I would like to be treated. That is not an option. Just saying

 

[Gabriel Elijah]

Never met a Calvinist who did not disparage those who hold differing views, they need to study more, they deliberately twist scripture, and the latest comment is Satan keeps trying to undermine God word. ROFLOL

I have read, well at least looked through, several books written by Calvinists and found what I believe is shoddy work. On the other hand, my views are shared with many scholars, because everything I say I try to corroborate from commentary by folks with degrees in Bible Study or Theology.

Feel free to copy and paste a snippet from a published source that supports any of your doctrines, i.e T, U, L, and I. I will respond with why I think the view is not biblical.

But just to lob ad homenims my way simply advertises that Calvinism is largely supported by logical fallacies. Anyway, that is my take.

Final thought, you have posted more than once you are worried I will stop liking you.
As a professing Christian, when I render what I think you need, it is as if I was rendering aid to Christ. In other words, my lovingkindness toward all professing Christians is not conditioned on them treating me as I would like to be treated. That is not an option. Just saying

Van—I have no idea if that was directed at me—but I never once said (in a serious manner) that I was worried about you not liking me (I honestly could care less)—I’ve only said things so you know I’m not trying to pinpoint you personally & bully you. But since you are so well self educated would you mind listing the “shoddy” Calvinist works you’ve read & a list of scholars who agree with you—I’d be interested in knowing who it is you think has a handle on good theology!

 

[glfredrick]

Never met a Calvinist who did not disparage those who hold differing views, they need to study more, they deliberately twist scripture, and the latest comment is Satan keeps trying to undermine God word. ROFLOL

I have read, well at least looked through, several books written by Calvinists and found what I believe is shoddy work. On the other hand, my views are shared with many scholars, because everything I say I try to corroborate from commentary by folks with degrees in Bible Study or Theology.

Feel free to copy and paste a snippet from a published source that supports any of your doctrines, i.e T, U, L, and I. I will respond with why I think the view is not biblical.

But just to lob ad homenims my way simply advertises that Calvinism is largely supported by logical fallacies. Anyway, that is my take.

Final thought, you have posted more than once you are worried I will stop liking you.
As a professing Christian, when I render what I think you need, it is as if I was rendering aid to Christ. In other words, my lovingkindness toward all professing Christians is not conditioned on them treating me as I would like to be treated. That is not an option. Just saying

This isn't about Calvinist or Arminian...

It is about doing proper theology, which you are ATTEMPTING to do in these posts, but without much coherence.

We're not lobbing ad homenims toward you, if anything, in respect and love, we're pointing out that you are not really coherent in your statements, often holding points in contradiction with other points. An unteachable mind is a dangerous mind... We, each of us, must be willing to grow in understanding, in technique, in wisdom, and in experience as we all process the SAME Scriptures, which had one distinct understanding as they came off the pen of the original writer. It is our task to discover that ONE understanding, then apply that via implications to our own set of circumstances in context with the rest of the Word of God, because the Word, nor God, is divided against it or Himself.

 

[Van]

Folks, did you notice that I specifically demonstrated a point of incoherence, saying "all" means everything imaginable according to the Calvinists when it says God is all knowing, but does not mean everything imaginable when Christ dies for all.

So what do I get lobbed in my direction, generalized charges without citing any specific problem. This tactic is as old as the hills, post some absurdity, then refer back to it as if you had made some cogent point. LOL

And do not forget now I have an unteachable dangerous mind.... No ad hominems are being lobbed my way. How could I be so oversensitive. And on it goes, one inane effort after another to shift the discussion to my personal problem, rather that the False Doctrines of Calvinism. Keep your eyes on the ball folks, it is going to be a bumpy ride.