The CALL, Is there One Call to All or not

[Brother Bob]

1. "Prophecy to these (dead) bones, and say to them, 'O dry bones, hear the word of the Lord!'" (Ezek. 37:4 Notice, those dead bones had no ability to hear the word of the Lord. God had to give those skeletons life first, before they had the ability to hear the word of the Lord.)

2. "a dead man was being carried out...Then He came and touched the open coffin...and He said, 'Young man, I say to you, arise.'" (Lk. 7:14 The dead man couldn't hear, until Christ first gave His miraculous power to him.)

3. "Your daughter is dead...He...took her by the hand and called saying, 'Little girl, arise.' Then her spirit returned, and she arose immediately." (Lk. 8:49-55 The dead girl had no power to arise until Christ gave it to her.)

4. "Lazarus, come forth!" (Jn. 11:43, Lazarus was dead! He had no ability to come forth. First, God had to make him alive before He had the ability to come forth.)

No one said they had the POWER but that they could hear Jesus while they were dead is the point.

Amen,

Bingo,!!

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello ED,

I agree with this last sentence.

As to the first sentence- "I'd like a second opinion please, Doctor!" as the patient said who was told he had to have emergency surgery, when he was feeling perfectly healthy. AND I believe I just found a good one! Seems to be pretty clear to me!

Ed

Lets just ask THE Doctor

Christ said....

40But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

41Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

46Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

47He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Tis very clear indeed. Do you not agree?


In Christ...James

 

[Blammo]

40But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

41Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

46Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

47He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

John 1:11-13 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

[EdSutton]

Sir the context is clear. The "all" in that text shall be raised in the last day. They all come to Christ. Do all men come to Christ? No. Are all men given to Christ by the Father? No. And when I say come to Christ, I mean believing or receiving him.

Well, I'm all for context. Let's look at it briefly. So I'll quote from the very reliable sources of Jesus, God the Holy Spirit, and John. I do tend to trust them, as to context.

26 Jesus answered them and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. 27 Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”
28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
30 Therefore they said to Him, “What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’”[b]
32 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
34 Then they said to Him, “Lord, give us this bread always.”
35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Rejected by His Own

41 The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.” 42 And they said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”
43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’[c]Therefore everyone who has heard and learned[d] from the Father comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me[e] has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.” (John 6:26-51 - NKJV)

I believe in the text, the raising up refers back to "No one" and "draw", not forward to "All", from the similie used by Jesus. Be that as it may. To my knowledge, there are two passages that speak of some 'drawing', and both have 'all' in their context. Does all mean all, or merely a part of the 'all'? Is this 'all' somehow differrent from that of, say, Rom. 3:23, where 'all' have sinned and come short of the glory of God", or a couple of other locales including Rom. 5: 12 where "all" sinned (in Adam) and "death spread to 'all 'men. or Gal. 3:22 where 'all' are confined under sin? How about II Peter 3:9 where it is said "...but that 'all' should come to repentance." Is there a difference in 'all' as opposed to 'all'?

Maybe it is just me, but somehow, I just cannot see the Bible and God as anywhere akin to George Orwell and Animal Farm 'where "all" the animals in the barnyard are equal; it's just that some are more equal than others.'

For my God is not like that, as unlike most theologians from all points along the spectrum, "Truly, I understand that God is no respecter of persons." (Acts 10:34b)

Ed

 

[jne1611]

Well, I'm all for context. Let's look at it briefly. So I'll quote from the very reliable sources of Jesus, God the Holy Spirit, and John. I do tend to trust them, as to context.
I believe in the text, the raising up refers back to "No one" and "draw", not forward to "All", from the similie used by Jesus. Be that as it may. To my knowledge, there are two passages that speak of some 'drawing', and both have 'all' in their context. Does all mean all, or merely a part of the 'all'? Is this 'all' somehow differrent from that of, say, Rom. 3:23, where 'all' have sinned and come short of the glory of God", or a couple of other locales including Rom. 5: 12 where "all" sinned (in Adam) and "death spread to 'all 'men. or Gal. 3:22 where 'all' are confined under sin? How about II Peter 3:9 where it is said "...but that 'all' should come to repentance." Is there a difference in 'all' as opposed to 'all'?

Maybe it is just me, but somehow, I just cannot see the Bible and God as anywhere akin to George Orwell and Animal Farm 'where "all" the animals in the barnyard are equal; it's just that some are more equal than others.'

For my God is not like that, as unlike most theologians from all points along the spectrum, "Truly, I understand that God is no respecter of persons." (Acts 10:34b)

Ed

OK Ed. On those grounds of interpretation, I will ask you then, "Who does Christ refer to in the whole passage as being raised up in the last day"? Anyone but those given to Him? The "does all mean all" is the most dead argument in the book. There are plenty of passages that use the word "all" that would force you to either accept that it is not speaking of the whole human race or that it means the whole human race will be saved. That's the importance of context.
And if you do tend to trust Christ according to context, then trust this:

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Those drawn are those raised in the last day. Those taught, hear & have learned of the Father come to Christ. Who are they?

Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Answer: Those given to Christ by His Father.

So, if you are true to your tendency to believe the context of the Lord, then you have no problem with the fact that His elect will be drawn, taught, hear, & learn of the Father, & so come to Christ for salvation.

Joh 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Only those given to Christ by the Father will receive eternal life. No more, No less.

 

[Jarthur001]

No one said they had the POWER but that they could hear Jesus while they were dead is the point.

Amen,

Bingo,!!

Hello Bob,

The point as I see it...Who gives life??

Tis God.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
Tis God..Man had nothing to do with it.

Psalms 16:11 You will show me the path of life; In Your presence is fullness of joy; At Your right hand are pleasures forevermore.
Tis God that SHOWS..Tis not man that leads the way.



Psalms 36:5-9 Your mercy, O LORD, is in the heavens; Your faithfulness reaches to the clouds. Your righteousness is like the great mountains; Your judgments are a great deep; O LORD, You preserve man and beast. How precious is Your lovingkindness, O God! Therefore the children of men put their trust under the shadow of Your wings. They are abundantly satisfied with the fullness of Your house, And You give them drink from the river of Your pleasures. For with You is the fountain of life; In Your light we see light.
Tis God that gives life in rain..Man has nothing to do with it.


Luke 9:23-25 Then He said to them all, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me. "For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it.
If Man comes on his own...He will lose his life. Tis God...that gives life to the one with no life. God saves

John 5:21-27 "For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. ...........(Snip)

......... "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, "and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
Tis God that gives life...Tis God that lets the dead hear....and notice...THOSE THAT HEAR...live.

John 10:27-30 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. "I and My Father are one."
Tis God that gives to the Son..Man had nothing to do with it.

Romans 5:20-21 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Tis God though GRACE that gives life..Man is died in sin


2 Peter 1:2-3 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue,

Tis God that gives life and CALLS His elect ..The called ...are only believes .

Revelation 2:7 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God."'
IF you can hear...hear this...Tis God that gives from the tree of life


In Christ...James

 

[EdSutton]

No one said they had the POWER but that they could hear Jesus while they were dead is the point.

Amen,

Bingo,!!

Correctemundo, BrotherBob!

Uh- What night is 'Bingo' night, at your church? I might drop in for it occasionally. What could I win?

Ed

 

[jne1611]

Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
Joh 6:42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
Joh 6:43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
The context is clear. Those given are drawn by the Father, believe on the Son, & are raised at the last day.

 

[Jarthur001]

[/B]

John 1:11-13 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Indeed.

Not born of Blood......Nation

Not born into it by your father.....

Not Born because we will it so....

BUT..........

BORN OF GOD​

Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[jne1611]

Indeed.

Not born of Blood......Nation

Not born into it by your father.....

Not Born because we will it so....

BUT..........

BORN OF GOD​

Thanks for pointing that out.

:thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs: Amen!

 

[reformedbeliever]

Granted, I'm somewhat late even looking at this thread. Someone has said that "Fools rush in where angels fear to tread." So, I'll lay claim to everything 'cept the first word in that sentence. Probably still this is foolish, however.
Uh- who's the 'Ed' that the thread referred to earlier? That's first off.

Second, it seems to me that the above paragraph is extremely long on 'theological speak' and double-talk, and extremely short on Scripture, save in the use of some Scriptural words and terms. Uh- anyone else notice this? Or is it just me?

Back to the sidelines, I trot.

Ed

First....I have no idea who the Ed is that some thread refers to. Which thread?
Second, if you have no clue to which scripture speaks of those who are chosen before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4) then I suppose there is no reason to discuss this with you. Umm ....... last time I checked we were discussing theology ( theological speak ). What double talk? If you really do need the obvious scripture references, just let me know and i'll try to help you. I think that Blammo knows exactly what I was saying to him. Maybe you can get him to explain what I was saying. I'm tired today and don't really feel like re-hashing it.

 

[Jarthur001]

First....I have no idea who the Ed is that some thread refers to. Which thread?
Second, if you have no clue to which scripture speaks of those who are chosen before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4) then I suppose there is no reason to discuss this with you. Umm ....... last time I checked we were discussing theology ( theological speak ). What double talk? If you really do need the obvious scripture references, just let me know and i'll try to help you. I think that Blammo knows exactly what I was saying to him. Maybe you can get him to explain what I was saying. I'm tired today and don't really feel like re-hashing it.

Hello reformedbeliever,

I'll take the Ed part, for it was me that posted the Ed reply to the OP.

This thread was a carry over from a now closed thread. The passage that was being looked at near the end of the last thread was Romans 8. The subject was Called....and Allan did not think the Bible ever used the word other then in one form. That being all men are called. This is where Romans 8 was posted and showed to Allan that in some cases it is used as election.

Allan replied with many verses...but in addressing the text in Romans 8...highlighted his main point. That point was Ed. Let me show you...

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified

Thus I ask...what does Ed have to do with it?

Being that everyone other then you has overlooked this...let me answer. The only thing Ed has to do with the statement is that it shows that it has been done. So it changes nothing, does it?

Now the next word that was used alot to show there is only one calling is.."foreknow". If you read the OP Allan puts a small twist on what is said by most freewillers. In doing so, I guess he thinks he has made things fit together. But has he said any thing new? Lets look.

It is said by freewillers that God elects because He foreknows who will believe. There are 2 things that must be addressed here.

1) When did God know, what He knows?

2) If God knows, is it now set in stone never to change?

 

[Blammo]

Indeed.

Not born of Blood......Nation

Not born into it by your father.....

Not Born because we will it so....

BUT..........

BORN OF GOD​

Thanks for pointing that out.

You think I have a problem with that? :laugh: When have I ever said that I gave myself eternal life?

I believed and was born of God. It was His will and His work. I have never said otherwise.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Hello reformedbeliever,

I'll take the Ed part, for it was me that posted the Ed reply to the OP.

This thread was a carry over from a now closed thread. The passage that was being looked at near the end of the last thread was Romans 8. The subject was Called....and Allan did not think the Bible ever used the word other then in one form. That being all men are called. This is where Romans 8 was posted and showed to Allan that in some cases it is used as election.

Allan replied with many verses...but in addressing the text in Romans 8...highlighted his main point. That point was Ed. Let me show you...



Thus I ask...what does Ed have to do with it?

Being that everyone other then you has overlooked this...let me answer. The only thing Ed has to do with the statement is that it shows that it has been done. So it changes nothing, does it?

Now the next word that was used alot to show there is only one calling is.."foreknow". If you read the OP Allan puts a small twist on what is said by most freewillers. In doing so, I guess he thinks he has made things fit together. But has he said any thing new? Lets look.

It is said by freewillers that God elects because He foreknows who will believe. There are 2 things that must be addressed here.

1) When did God know, what He knows?

2) If God knows, is it now set in stone never to change?

:laugh: Thanks brother. I had no idea what Ed was talking about.... as he apparently has no idea what I was talking about when I responded to a question Blammo had. I think if he really went back and read all the replies to the thread, he would maybe not be so confused. Brother bob seemed to not understand what I was saying either....... didn't have a clue. I think they thought I was saying that babies go to hell.... oh well..... thats what they want to believe calvinists advocate. Maybe it cranks their tractor to believe such nonsense... whatever! It may be that they just really don't have a clue...lol. At least Blammo knew what I was saying, since he said I gave him a good answer. Maybe Blammo is becoming a calvinist! :laugh: Just yanking your chain Blammo... Grace and peace

 

[Jarthur001]

You think I have a problem with that? :laugh: When have I ever said that I gave myself eternal life?

I believed and was born of God. It was His will and His work. I have never said otherwise.

Good..

For many overlook the part..."not by the WILL of man".

I'm glad you do not.

 

[jne1611]

Good..

For many overlook the part..."not by the WILL of man".

I'm glad you do not.

It seems more and more people do not see this verse as coupling with the receiving of Christ in the verse before.

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello Allan,

I may not have much time this week, so I thought I would just go ahead and address other matters in your post, while I wait on your "foreknow" reply.

From the OP...

Now scripture tells here also:

Quote:
16So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen

Note if you will "BE" called, so in other words "have been".
You may say Allan you just answered you own question. Wait brother, just wait... Also in relation to the parable it is speaking of those whom God called to be laborers for Him. And when the Owner of the Vineyard asked why these men were standing around they stated, because no one has "hired - invited/called" us. But the question now is did ALL go, we see no they did not. Yet it was the same Call from the Master or God. Again this same phrase is used elsewhere, so before we get to set on what it means just yet, let us look at Mat 22 also.

So no one will be mislead by context, lets post the whole text.

1And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,

2The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,

3And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

4Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.

5But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:

6And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.

7But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

8Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.

9Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.

10So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

11And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

12And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

13Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

14For many are called, but few are chosen.

Now you posted many verses...look at john..matt...romans...but never did address this fully.

In verse 14...who is this group? Is the "called" saved? Are the "chosen" saved? Who is cast into outer darkness? Was "all" or "many" invited? If this calling is for service, are some saints not called to serve? If this is for service, if you do not serve are you cast out into darkness? Notice it was the person that was cast out.

Or..is this salvation?

 

[Allan]

Please don't forget Jauthor this is a carry-over you were also apart of in some respects. Further, ther have already been complaints at the lengths of this OP - and you of all people know I can be extremely lengthly so can you see me going into detail (which I will as asked) in the OP on every verse. No one would have come here :laugh:

But I am getting ready for work right now but will address it once at work tonight. It is good guard turkeys :laugh:

 

[jne1611]

Please don't forget Jauthor this is a carry-over you were also apart of in some respects. Further, ther have already been complaints at the lengths of this OP - and you of all people know I can be extremely lengthly so can you see me going into detail (which I will as asked) in the OP on every verse. No one would have come here :laugh:

But I am getting ready for work right now but will address it once at work tonight. It is good guard turkeys :laugh:

Don't worry about the complaints Allan. You started the thread, if they don't like it, they can go to another thread.





http://smiley.smileycentral.com/download/index.jhtml?partner=ZSzeb095_ZNxpt237YYUS&utm_id=7923

 

[Allan]

For a person that has spent the last few weeks saying to many people (Calvinist) hold to logic and/or theology and not the Bible, you just blow your idea with this long OP.

Before I go much further:

Jauthor: Do you ever actually "READ" my posts. For some reason you can not represent what I'm talking about or have indeed said.

What I stated on the other thread of Calivinst Preaches, teachers and theologians was that Calvinists state logic ISN"T a big part of their theology. What I said is that I disagreed and that it IS a big part with regard to the order in which you present Gods decrees and some of the very decrees themselves that are undoubtedly there but not spoken of out right. (ie. the fall of man) It is something postulated. I never said logic was a bad thing or that I disagree with anyone who uses it. Secondly, I NEVER stated Calvinists hold more to logic and or theorlogy than the bible. That was either your personal exageration or mix up with me and someone else. Let us keep this on what we actually say, at least try, after all this IS the BB :laugh: