The CALL, Is there One Call to All or not

[Allan]

Wow, I appreciate the interaction on here and the somewhat civillty of interactions. I am going to try to deal with each as I can >>>Edited<<<, and MAYBE answer to some degree or other if there is One actually calling or Two seperate Callings.

JNE1600: Thank you for your patience here.

Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

No problem here, as most everyone (Non-Cal that is) I know on the BB would agree with you. But The difference is how those who were given were first identified which gives rise to the Call(s). Which I'm sure is why you then gave me these to ponder:

Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Again, I have no problem with these verses as Jesus knows them that will respond, but this does not require to seperate types of Calling. One being effectual and only for the sheep, and another call that does nothing but is still given by God wherein no one does anything with.

It is plain as day that the "Calling" - "invitation" is accepted only by the "elect" - "sheep" & rejected by the "non -elect" - "goats".
And as far as the particularity of the call itself & its nature & character. It is only given to the elect.

You have not even shown proof so far with regard to types of Calling. You have only showed there ARE those who will respond but not that it necessitates to seperate and distinct calls. Trust me - I'm with you so far, maybe not in your particular view per-say, but the truth these verses entail.
Now with respect to your next listings:

1Co 1:26 For ye see your calling [invitation], brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
1Co 1:27 But God hath chosen [To choose, select, choose for oneself] the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
1Co 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
1Co 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
1Co 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

I will start here with something off of verse 26 which I highlighted. Note this phrase or these two words are not really there but conveying intent of idea. Research the Greek or other translations like NASV says

[B]1 Cor 1:26[/B] For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble; 
New American Standard Bible © 1995 Lockman Foundation

or :

For consider your call, brethren; not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth;
Revised Standard Version © 1947, 1952.

The context is actaully about (at least I beleive it is) those who have believed, via His calling. We see this in context shows WHY there is not boasting or glorying before God as there is nothing from MANS perspective to give glory to himself. IT is what the world would consider foolishness that there is no disquishable greatness to any of these that would earn such a great prize or gift. This is why in verse 27 it states God has chosen - not in relation the elect but in relation to God not using mans system to determine worth. Notice also that Paul speaks of those "things", we are not things so it in these verses are not refering to man but that system OF man that determins ones worthiness. We see in verse 29 that Paul bring it back to people and that since what we have in not based on any system proving ourselves worthy, we loose anything by which we may glory of ourselves. Verse 30 states "We are in Christ, due to Him..." Keep it in context, as in God is the one who called us based on nothing we have done, or are. But before we leave off here please go up a few verses from 27 where you began:

1Cr 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

See, here is the premise of the suceeding verses of which you spoke regarding the call. The call was foolishness to the world but salvation to them "THAT BELEIVED". They are elect because they believed, but God who they would be, for He foreknew THAT THEY WERE and decreed them to be saved, thus it is the same calling to all but only those who WILL believe are saved and thus is the truest measure of mans willful rebellion and thus exact nature of Gods just punishment.

WIth regard to 1 Cor 1 24 . This is speaking (in context) as an identifier of those who at present had believed based on Gods calling (as in accordance with verse 21) and not a designator of a group. Thus is it either ONE calling toward all or two seperate types of calling (one effectaul the other feeble OR having no intent to convert)

Your second posting you Highlighted for me I have already dealt with above being that it is not actually there and more specifically deals with the intent of Paul to show these people had no earthly reason to claim such a heavenly gift.

 

[Allan]

Originally Posted by Blammo
That is correct. Show me where it says all who are drawn will obey the gospel?

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen

By JNE1600
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Those drawn, are raised at the last day. What does that tell you? There is no talk of the drawn rejecting Christ in the context is there? All of those given are drawn, taught, and come to Christ.
And Matt 22:14 says nothing about being drawn by the Father

I would like to jump in here as well since it is refering to the OP.
Matt 22:14 is refering to the drawing and it pretains to the OP of Calling. Many BE CALLED but few are Chosen.

Second: Let us let scripture show who those are that are raised. Those who were chosen or who where chosen based on their believing.

Jhn 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, will have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

What is the nothing that Christ shall not loose. It those by which the very will of the Father is repeated with a qualifier of those who will be raised up and not lost.
But you will notice as is in line with the OP They believe because a call but what consistantly distinquishes them is not the pre-election, but what the do - believe.

 

[Allan]

that depends on the meaning of "draw him"

That Pete is the purpose of this thread. The typical Calvinist holds there are two calls. I state there is only one call and that call is effectual to any who will beleive.
Effectual defines the act after the fact thus denoting a completed work. The entire Call in effectual to any who will believe, beginning from the call but awaiting for the one thing God requires - belief He will. This is why being the elect isn't enough, nor is being The Called or Chosen, but belief that seperates Children of God and Children of condemnation.

 

[Allan]

Whatever, you stated earlier:

the decrees do not depend on foreknowledge of any man's choices.

Yes, I hear that but that is about all I hear. Faith cometh by hearing brother, *shrug* You have not shown otherwise. When a scripture is given that is not in line with your thougths. Don't throw out others first, Deal with what is there. Then add your verses and let them see what you have to say.

 

[Allan]

Just re-posting this in case it got lost. Man you guys are fast. :godisgood:

However, I will try to address as much as possible but I am backed up a bit in some things which is why I haven't responded till now. AND my wife is getting a little irritated with me on the computer so much lately (studies, e-mail, blogging) so I promised to degress somewhat. I have to head out to preach this morning so I wll addess only what I remember off the top of head. JNE1600 I will get back with you since it was you and I that first began this conversation, please be patient with me


Ye please look CLOSELY at the first AND at the next verse Pinoy:

Quote:
John 1:12- " But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:"
Now, watch the next verse:John 1:13 - "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the


NOTE: To those who RECEIVED Him, it was to THEM He GAVE the right to be called the Sons of God
The next first states NOT that God MADE (irresistable call) them recieve but that any who DID RECEIVE but the next verse shows this salvation is not due to mans wanting OUTSIDE of God as I have stated many time before. It is the next verse that clarifies this as salvation is not due to a blood line (by blood) any good a man can do (by the will of flesh) nor is it by mans desire (by the will of man) OUTSIDE of God.

There is none on here that I know of who deny a person CAN NOT come to Christ unless God initiate the relationship.

However the reason for this OP: Is there one calling to the few, or is the calling to all - with regard to the empowering for that salvation we hold most dear.

Man if left to himself will not seek God, therefore it is God who must initiate. That is what John 1:12-13 is about in context of the verses 1-18. Moses brought the law but Jesus brought Grace and truth. He is the light that LIGHTETH every man that cometh into the world - guess which translation

And as BLAMMO stated scripture; Faith COMES by hearing and hearing BY the Word of God. Not in any phrasology: Faith comes only to the elect by hearing and hearing by the Word of God..

REFORMEDBEILVER Stated:

Quote:
Those who reject His call are damned as a result.

Uh, not accoding to your theology~ They were damned BEFORE they heard the Call remember: God knew before creation that man would fall and it was from THERE (mans decision for damnation) that God decreed the Elect from those IN damnation already.

 

[Jarthur001]

Before I go much further:

Jauthor: Do you ever actually "READ" my posts. For some reason you can not represent what I'm talking about or have indeed said.

What I stated on the other thread of Calivinst Preaches, teachers and theologians was that Calvinists state logic ISN"T a big part of their theology. What I said is that I disagreed and that it IS a big part with regard to the order in which you present Gods decrees and some of the very decrees themselves that are undoubtedly there but not spoken of out right. (ie. the fall of man) It is something postulated. I never said logic was a bad thing or that I disagree with anyone who uses it. Secondly, I NEVER stated Calvinists hold more to logic and or theorlogy than the bible. That was either your personal exageration or mix up with me and someone else. Let us keep this on what we actually say, at least try, after all this IS the BB :laugh:

yes allan, i read them. I am not saying someone should not post long worded post..i sure do. It was the context and logic of the post. Just a little ribbing as you do others.

No Calvinist said they did not use logic. All do. Its part of being a human. Your post was fulll of it. The point in the other thread was that Calvinist do not start with a logic blueprint and work toward the Bible, but rather start with the Bible to draw the blueprint. This is what all should do. And then we have conjectural which is brought up many times also, in which we see the OP full of. But no big deal Allan, for this is part of all of our studies and post as well. If we did not conjectural, we would not post. That is part of it also, for we all have views.

I just wanted to point out that you do this just as much as you say others do. But I will not keep bringing it up over and over.

Now back to the subject...........

Romans 8...Ed and foreknow.
and...

Matt



In Christ...James

 

[Allan]

James, It looks like I can finally address your posting raying: :smilewinkgrin:

So no one will be mislead by context, lets post the whole text.

Quote:
1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen

.
Now you posted many verses...look at john..matt...romans...but never did address this fully.

In verse 14...who is this group? Is the "called" saved? Are the "chosen" saved? Who is cast into outer darkness? Was "all" or "many" invited? If this calling is for service, are some saints not called to serve? If this is for service, if you do not serve are you cast out into darkness? Notice it was the person that was cast out.

Or..is this salvation?

First off James, who said these verses refer to service in the specific nature it was given? Cotext shows what this is refering to but has a buttress of that which preceeds this parable, That being another parable of like manner concerning salvation which BTW this new parable is still addressing that same group speaking with Jesus regarding the same context again. The calling and salvation. Now within this parable we do see service and most specifically that of the Jewish people doing the preaching/calling and are called servents in the first. However that is not the main thrust of the parable but potion within it.

In verse 14...who is this group?

1. Which group James, The many called or the few chosen?

Are the "chosen" saved?

2. According to scripture, Yes. They were clothed in the garments of a wedding feast, and those not in correct apparel given by the Host were excluded in the fellowship.

Who is cast into outer darkness?

One who did not have what was required to be in attmitance. It had nothing to do with whether he was invited.
3.

Was "all" or "many" invited?

Since there was already those who had rejected the invitation James, it necessitates it was not given to all, and still of the many only few came.
PLEASE NOTE HOWEVER: The King did not send out His servents to an already pre-determind list like the original guests but sent them to bid ANY WHO WOULD COME.

If this calling is for service, are some saints not called to serve?

It is not about service. The only service with it context is about the Jewish preachers/prophets calling to the Jewish nation. And then the Jewish Apostles calling to any who will come.

If this is for service, if you do not serve are you cast out into darkness? Notice it was the person that was cast out.

No again, and the person cast out - was not cast out for lack of service since none there is being shown to be serving but coming to this feast. The person thrown out was not in correct apparel given by the Host when the Host come unto His own, and therefore was excluded from the fellowship as not one of His. He didn't have what he needed in order to partake of the grace of the Host.

 

[Allan]

yes allan, i read them. I am not saying someone should not post long worded post..i sure do. It was the context and logic of the post. Just a little ribbing as you do others.

No Calvinist said they did not use logic. All do. Its part of being a human. Your post was fulll of it. The point in the other thread was that Calvinist do not start with a logic blueprint and work toward the Bible, but rather start with the Bible to draw the blueprint. This is what all should do. And then we have conjectural which is brought up many times also, in which we see the OP full of. But no big deal Allan, for this is part of all of our studies and post as well. If we did not conjectural, we would not post. That is part of it also, for we all have views.

I just wanted to point out that you do this just as much as you say others do. But I will not keep bringing it up over and over.

Now back to the subject...........

Romans 8...Ed and foreknow.
and...

Matt

In Christ...James

James if you must then go back and look. I never stated this:

...snip...The point in the other thread was that Calvinist do not start with a logic blueprint and work toward the Bible...snip...

and even had to correct those who that that was what I was advocating. Actually I think it was you I made the correction too. Either way it matters not...

James as I just stated in an earlier post to you, I have no problems with Logic being applied by anyone as long as scripture is the guide for the logical course we take. And I agree that though we hold to the same truths it is the mechanics of those truths by which we differ in view.

I love a good ribbing (especially with B-B-Q sause - southern style) but lets keep it to accuctual things stated or intended. By the way I like my ribs spicy HOT~!! :laugh:

 

[whatever]

Whatever, you stated earlier:

the decrees do not depend on foreknowledge of any man's choices.

Yes, I hear that but that is about all I hear. Faith cometh by hearing brother, *shrug* You have not shown otherwise. When a scripture is given that is not in line with your thougths. Don't throw out others first, Deal with what is there. Then add your verses and let them see what you have to say.

I guess I'm not sure what we disagree about. Yes, faith comes by hearing. I am not sure why you think that I would think otherwise. Can you help me "get it"? God's decrees and the means by which God's decrees are fulfilled (e.g., faith) are separate things. Am I getting warm?

 

[Allan]

I guess I'm not sure what we disagree about. Yes, faith comes by hearing. I am not sure why you think that I would think otherwise. Can you help me "get it"? God's decrees and the means by which God's decrees are fulfilled (e.g., faith) are separate things. Am I getting warm?

The whole faith cometh by hearing.. was more toward follow through with your explaination and scritpture otherwise how can my faith or anyone elses be challenged and grow with substance for me to chew on, and the same is vise versa.

We differ in the two basic points for here. The call being one effectual call to those who WILL believe. And that brings up my second point but not so much in my OP, of If God elects then why scriptual mandate that to be saved you must believe. Could it possible be because this is the requirement God decreed as a means for salvation. Now the question is Why, if He determines who He will MAKE believe and who He will leave in darkness.

I just think these a pertinent questions with regard to the call. You don't have to answer them all at once though otherwise you'll be here all day like I was all night catching up on posts. :BangHead:

 

[webdog]

Dead men do not hear.

Tell that to Lazarus.

 

[webdog]

Then you were no longer dead at that point. You did not come to life because you heard it. The Spirit brought you to life so you can hear the call to eternal life.

Faulty logic. We are made alive upon faith in Christ, this is what Scripture teaches. This just goes to show that in the same sense a physically dead Lazarus could respond to God, so can a spiritually dead (separated, btw, not "corpse") person respond.

 

[Pastor Larry]

I state there is only one call and that call is effectual to any who will beleive.

This is non sensical. The "effectual call" is designated by the fat that the call "effects" the outcome, or brings it to pass. It does not become effectual after someone believes. They believe because it is effectual. So your position must reject the effectual call. You can't just redefine it.


Rom 8 makes clear that there is a process from foreknowledge right on through to glorification. In the passage, all who are foreknown partake of each of the other aspects, right through to glorification. One of those aspects is called. The called are justified. There is no room for some to be "called" with that call and not also be justified. All who are called are justified, according to the verse.

1 Cor 1 also makes clear that to the "called" Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God. That is not true of hte others because "the called" are contrasted with those who reject salvation.

So exegetically, it is absolutely essential to acknowledge the existence of an effectual call, which brings faith in all those to whom it is given. To do otherwise is to change the text of Scripture, what God has revealed to us.

 

[Brother Bob]

When did C. H. Spurgeon become scripture?

 

[jne1611]

Hello Allan.
Thanks for your reply. I will adress your comments one by one as I have time.

1. Quote Allan: No problem here, as most everyone (Non-Cal that is) I know on the BB would agree with you. But The difference is how those who were given were first identified which gives rise to the Call(s). End Quote.

Tell me exactly what you were alluding to on this point. When you say "were first identified" are you referring to God knowing they would believe? After your answer, we can go on with this one.

 

[jne1611]

Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Quote Allan: Again, I have no problem with these verses as Jesus knows them that will respond, but this does not require to seperate types of Calling. One being effectual and only for the sheep, and another call that does nothing but is still given by God wherein no one does anything with.
End Quote.
I think I see where you and I differ. You see, again I cannot speak for everyone else, but, I see, the general call as the proclamation of the gospel, I.E. God's word. The effectual call is actually the general call applied with the power of the Holy Ghost. The only difference is the Spirit applies with power those Words to one & not another. There may be some Calvinist's who would disagree so I do not speak for all on this point. Only myself. But as I said before, the call itself is for Christ's sheep. When Christ says my sheep hear my voice, he is not just talking about those saved, but all of his sheep, even those who have not yet believed on him. His point is that all the flock of God will be brought in safely by him. The reason for the general call, is that the elect are scattered in the world. But the fact remains that they and they alone hear and receive the message. Can you agree with this?

 

[jne1611]

Quote Allan: You have not even shown proof so far with regard to types of Calling. You have only showed there ARE those who will respond but not that it necessitates to seperate and distinct calls. Trust me - I'm with you so far, maybe not in your particular view per-say, but the truth these verses entail. End Quote.

I tried to substantiate my claim by Rom 8. Those who are "the Called" or "The Invited" according to His purpose. It is impossible to fit any one but the elect into this context. I saw your argument & have already addressed it. I will say this about it. There is not per say, two callings, in the sense that God makes two calls, (In this I see we agree, so I may have to concede to you on this) but one, given that the calls purpose is to save God's elect. For the call or invitation or calling in Rom. 8 applies only to God's elect. The calling in Matthew 22:14 only matters to the chosen. There is no way to say it was effectual to the rejected, for, they rejected the message, only the chosen received it.
In essence, what I am saying, is, the call is designed to reach the elect by the application of the Holy Ghost & not apart from His work. It is given to every creature by the proclamation of the gospel, but is only effectual to the elect - "those given".

 

[jne1611]

1Co 1:26 For ye see your calling [invitation], brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
1Co 1:27 But God hath chosen [To choose, select, choose for oneself] the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
1Co 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
1Co 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
1Co 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Quote Allan: The context is actaully about (at least I beleive it is) those who have believed, via His calling. We see this in context shows WHY there is not boasting or glorying before God as there is nothing from MANS perspective to give glory to himself. IT is what the world would consider foolishness that there is no disquishable greatness to any of these that would earn such a great prize or gift. This is why in verse 27 it states God has chosen - not in relation the elect but in relation to God not using mans system to determine worth. Notice also that Paul speaks of those "things", we are not things so it in these verses are not refering to man but that system OF man that determins ones worthiness. We see in verse 29 that Paul bring it back to people and that since what we have in not based on any system proving ourselves worthy, we loose anything by which we may glory of ourselves. Verse 30 states "We are in Christ, due to Him..." Keep it in context, as in God is the one who called us based on nothing we have done, or are. But before we leave off here please go up a few verses from 27 where you began:
End Quote.
Again, I agree with you as to the context. I see your point. on the italicized words. I do disagree to your interpretation that the choice has no relation to the elect themselves. In fact, that is precisely who Paul is talking about. If of course, you see that "us which are called" are "the elect of God themselves" & by the time he gets to verse 31, no matter what your opinion of the base things, despised things, etc. The application is made to us as he makes it clear in verse 30 Of God are we in Christ! We have no room to glory, because if God had not chosen us & put us in Christ we would have been cast to hell! That is why we cannot glory in the flesh, but in God only!

 

[jne1611]

Quote:
1Cr 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
Quote Allan: See, here is the premise of the suceeding verses of which you spoke regarding the call. The call was foolishness to the world but salvation to them "THAT BELEIVED". They are elect because they believed, but God who they would be, for He foreknew THAT THEY WERE and decreed them to be saved, thus it is the same calling to all but only those who WILL believe are saved and thus is the truest measure of mans willful rebellion and thus exact nature of Gods just punishment. End Qoute.

I have no problem accepting this, namely, that the gospel is the means by which God calls His elect. I think I have made my stand clear on this. Again. Those who believed are God's elect. But you said they were elect or chosen because they believed. There is not 1 Scripture to support this. The elect believe because they are the elect.
Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Note: They believed because they were ordained, they did not believe & then get ordained anymore that those in John 6 come to Christ to become given by the Father. And also, there is no Scripture in the Bible to support that God chose because of foreknown faith. If there is, please give it.

 

[jne1611]

Quote Allan: WIth regard to 1 Cor 1 24 . This is speaking (in context) as an identifier of those who at present had believed based on Gods calling (as in accordance with verse 21) and not a designator of a group. Thus is it either ONE calling toward all or two seperate types of calling (one effectaul the other feeble OR having no intent to convert) End Quote.
I would have to disagree. It does designate a group, for the word is to us as well & we are all believers "God's elect".:smilewinkgrin: