The CALL, Is there One Call to All or not

[Brother Bob]

Sorry to be a pain...Just to make sure.

The word spirit in Job 32:8...you feel this is "Holy Spirit" the 3rd person of the Godhead?

and...you feel also that this passage is talking about God giving understanding...the understanding in which we have been talking about...as in toward salvation?

This is how you see this?

I see it as the Spirit of God teaching all men what is right which is to follow Him and what is wrong. I also believe that God's Spirit the same one is trying to persuade men to follow good which will lead to repentance, a new birth and Salvation.

ARTICLE 5. We believe that sinners are called to repentance and believe in the Gospel and regeneration of the soul and sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, and none shall fall away and be lost.

 

[Jarthur001]

I see it as the Spirit of God teaching all men what is right which is to follow Him and what is wrong. I also believe that God's Spirit the same one is trying to persuade men to follow good which will lead to repentance, a new birth and Salvation.

ARTICLE 5. We believe that sinners are called to repentance and believe in the Gospel and regeneration of the soul and sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, and none shall fall away and be lost.

Bob,

I'm sorry but you are wrong. Where as I do hold to the fact Holy Spirit is the one that gives understanding for salvation for I have posted this many times in this thread, it is wrong to say this text is teaching it. You are abusing the Bible for your doctrine. You can not do this Bob. Even if the doctrine is right, you still cannot do it. Again, I agree that Holy Spirit gives understand for salvation, but this context is talking about the natural man. Read the whole book and the context is clear. The spirit in this text is not God, but rather showing man has a living spirit in him. Even the understanding here is talking about intellect of man. God gives man his brain and way of reason...is the meaning of understanding here.

The only thing you can claim here is this is a "picture" of how it is in Salvation. This however would still be up for debate for those that do not hold to what you and I do. One needs to apply what Augustine called the 'analogy of Scripture,' or 'the analogy of faith.'...other wise we force presupposition on the text....which is just what you have done.



In Christ...James

 

[Brother Bob]

the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding

Who is the Almighty James?

James; before there was a law a man's concious either accused or excused him. Where do you think he got his concious when some have theirs seared with a heart iron. I think I am right when I say the Almighty giveth them understanding that it comes from God and not the mind of a man.
The mind of a man certainly is not the "Almighty".

The inspiration of the Almighty giveth the spirit of man understanding.

Titus 2:

"11": For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

"12": Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

"13": Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

"14": Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

 

[jne1611]

Amen brother..and we were all in that same boat before God worked in our heart.

As to Acts 7....



I can understand why you say this. Let me just point out one thing and get your input. Do you think that he is saying that the "uncircumcised in heart and ears"...or those in that state....those blinded to the truth because of sin....those that can not hear/spiritually understand the gospel. That these are the ones that will ALWAYS resist?

Never heard it put that way. Good point!

 

[Jarthur001]

the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding

Who is the Almighty James?

James; before there was a law a man's concious either accused or excused him. Where do you think he got his concious when some have theirs seared with a heart iron. I think I am right when I say the Almighty giveth them understanding that it comes from God and not the mind of a man.
The mind of a man certainly is not the "Almighty".

The inspiration of the Almighty giveth the spirit of man understanding.

Yes..understanding does come from God. But this is not the same understand we have been talking about on this thread. And no one has said that the mind of man is the Almighty.

Look Bob...just read the whole book when you have time. I don't feel like typing pages on this.

Believe what you want. I just disagree.
************

As to Titus 2

Titus 2:

"11": For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

"12": Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

"13": Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

"14": Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

This passage is talking about salvation...where as the other was not. It was talking about ALL men given a brain to think.

 

[Brother Bob]

Yes..understanding does come from God. But this is not the same understand we have been talking about on this thread. And no one has said that the mind of man is the Almighty.

Look Bob...just read the whole book when you have time. I don't feel like typing pages on this.

Believe what you want. I just disagree.

If you don't have the time then you should just go on past my posts James. There is no way "The Almighty" is the mind or thoughts of man and it says The Almighty giveth the spirit of man understanding, I know its talking about being angry at Job and the strife between men but it also is talking about the age of man the the wisdom and that "The Almighty" which is God, giveth the spirit of man understanding. Not my words it is scripture and if you don't want to take it so be it, but you will not convince me that the Almighty is talking about man.

It does not change at all the question you ask me and that is:

Bob,


Please tell me how a person believes before he has understanding. Thanks.

I don't believe he can James. I have always said the Spirit of God Strives with all men.

 

[Jarthur001]

If you don't have the time then you should just go on past my posts James.

/B]

right you are...

 

[Allan]

Hello again James,
I see you've become the life of the party :smilewinkgrin:

This word (Foreknowing) is so often misused, it is a shame.

I certainly agree.

1) What does God know?
2) When did He knew what He knows?
3) Will the things that God knews about the future ever change?*

* A note to number 3. In other words...If God knows I will be in a house fire on Dec 23rd of 2008 at 1:23 am, and God has known this from the time that the world was made, will this event happen to me?

Answers:
1. Everything, for nothing is outside His knowing, even His decrees.
So to better phrase it would be that it is not about "what" He knows but what He "decided in accordance to this Knowing.

2. Before He decreed it. Since we do not know how Gods mind opperates specifically (if you do please tell me - then please help me to understand women :tongue3: ). Now I'm not trying to humanize God here but since "knowing Gods Mind" is impossible per-say so the prostulation I bring is the best analogy in our relm we have. So IMO this is a safe venture to assume that to decree something means you HAVE fore-knowledge of it (knowledge before hand) of that which you just decreed. Can you decree something you have NO knowledge of, that is senceless.

3. No, when God decreed it to be so (according to His purpose, plan and pleasure - as you put it) it will be so.
NOTE to your Note on #3: Since everything was settle from the foundation of the world it is incumbent upon us to know God was pleased with His Plan and Purpose. Therefore it was settled there (before His decree) by Him ordaining /appointing/decreeing it to be. A plan must be thought out, a purpose must have direction and therefor thought out and a decree of how things will be Must also be thought out before any of these can become action.

Therefore all that He did in a best guess of the mind of God senerio is that God Fore-Knew/Fore-know

An Early Church Father who held this view, and is considered one of the establishers of the reformed faith states this:

Quote:
God, then, in His foreknowledge, has not chosen the works of any man which He himself would give, but in His foreknowledge, He has chosen faith as He has chosen him whom He foreknew would believe in Him and to whom He would give the Holy Spirit so that, by performing good works, he would obtain eternal life.”
-St. Augustine, "Explanation of Certain Passages from the Epistle of the Apostle to the Romans", Ch.60

Bolding is my emphasis added.

And as you note he even ends with the traditional "P"erseverence of the saints. That in doing good (Spiritually or Godly good) work due to the Holy Spirit we obtain Heaven or better, these show we have assurence of Heaven.

I will deal with the Greek concerning Fore-Know as the both the Greek (gnostos) and Hebrew (yada) for know have diversified meanings but still within the framework of its root(s). What I will deal with will be the most common applications those of Fore - Know (love) and the other distinct and seperate form Fore - Know (knowledge),. or is there really two forms of this compound word???


Fore-know [Knowledge before] Gr. proginosko (pros - Before \ ginosko - Knowledge)
Fore-know [love before] Gr. ?? Wait there isn't one!!

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello Allan,

Hello again James,
I see you've become the life of the party :smilewinkgrin:

If this be a party, why no party mix???

Answers:
1. Everything, for nothing is outside His knowing, even His decrees.
So to better phrase it would be that it is not about "what" He knows but what He "decided in accordance to this Knowing.

2. Before He decreed it. Since we do not know how Gods mind opperates specifically (if you do please tell me - then please help me to understand women :tongue3: ). Now I'm not trying to humanize God here but since "knowing Gods Mind" is impossible per-say so the prostulation I bring is the best analogy in our relm we have. So IMO this is a safe venture to assume that to decree something means you HAVE fore-knowledge of it (knowledge before hand) of that which you just decreed. Can you decree something you have NO knowledge of, that is senceless.

3. No, when God decreed it to be so (according to His purpose, plan and pleasure - as you put it) it will be so.
NOTE to your Note on #3: Since everything was settle from the foundation of the world it is incumbent upon us to know God was pleased with His Plan and Purpose. Therefore it was settled there (before His decree) by Him ordaining /appointing/decreeing it to be. A plan must be thought out, a purpose must have direction and therefor thought out and a decree of how things will be Must also be thought out before any of these can become action.

Therefore all that He did in a best guess of the mind of God senerio is that God Fore-Knew/Fore-know

Ok..that is your view of foreknowing. Now lets look at more key words about God, before we pull it all together.

Creation and Gods foreknowing.
I'm sure you believe God was before creation, so I will not ask this. Only one here. Believe it or not, there is more after this.

>>> Was "Let there be light" based on Gods foreknowing?

In other words..IN YOUR VIEW AS YOU LAID OUT ABOVE (based on your "best guess of the mind" toward Gods foreknowing)... it would be fair to ask....
Did God make, in this case did God make light, because God foreknow light must be made, for God foreknew light was made, and no one else was there to make light, so God made light at the foreknown point in which He foreknow light was to be made?

 

[Allan]

James,
Man your up early!

If this be a party, why no party mix???

There would have been but since I foresaw this place was going to be busy I decreed it will be eaten by me. *burp!* Scuse me! :tongue3:

>>> Was "Let there be light" based on Gods foreknowing?

In other words..IN YOUR VIEW AS YOU LAID OUT ABOVE (based on your "best guess of the mind" toward Gods foreknowing)... it would be fair to ask....
Did God make, in this case did God make light, because God foreknow light must be made, for God foreknew light was made, and no one else was there to make light, so God made light at the foreknown point in which He foreknow light was to be made?

**Boogle** :laugh: And I thought I could be the most confusing person here.

Yes but lets tweek something in your statement: God did not make light because He knew it must be made; He made light because He knew it must be as it is apart of His plan not that He forsaw He needed it. (as in working through differing plans to see which one is better)
All of this was Known to God and set in His plan due to knowledge of how something WILL work and what WILL be NEEDED in relation to how a thing will work, that all things be accomplished due TO His Work! :laugh: :thumbsup:

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello Allan,

**Boogle** :laugh: And I thought I could be the most confusing person here.

If you think that was a twisting, fact find statement you will just love my end point, when and if I make it there before we both die.

Yes but lets tweek something in your statement: God did not make light because He knew it must be made; He made light because He knew it must be as it is apart of His plan not that He forsaw He needed it. (as in working through differing plans to see which one is better)
All of this was Known to God and set in His plan due to knowledge of how something WILL work and what WILL be NEEDED in relation to how a thing will work, that all things be accomplished due TO His Work!

Speaking of plans....

We now have foreknowing based on Gods plan, if i read you right from above.

So..lets see if I follow you right.
God did not act on His foreknowing that light would come about, and thereby need to decree light into place because of that foreknowing nature. Rather the foreknowing came from the fact that God had a plan all along to make light and from this plan of God, came the foreknowing part of his nature, for it was HE that planned to make light all along, therefore He foreknew of it.

Is this what you are saying?



In Christ...James

 

[Allan]

What I'm saying is that God knew what He needed in order to fulfill that which He wanted. Beyond that James is really stretching it, as we don't and can't comprehend Gods knowledge but on a finite level of those things revealed in scripture. All we really know is Foreknow first, then predestined... That aside nothing is done without knowledge and this I believe includes God IMO as He speaks consistantly of His plans and purposes.

However for the finite IN Time we see everything as from a beginning and try to plan out for every senerio that we can hopefully have or what could be considered the best plan based on knowledge. This is why we have contingency plans or just in casers.

The eternal God sees everthing in the moment of now so technically everything He knows IS and there is no rendering of best guess senerios, as He sees what IS (IMO entails Mans free responsibilty and God interaction for His purposed plan - both as one thought) and therefore His plan is the BEST there can be based on His Perfect knowledge.

Now do we "actually" know if God looked at multiple differing plans, I personally don't think so since God is also perfect IN knowledge. *boogle* I'm glad I'm not God. :BangHead: I would quit! And if perfect in Knowledge He is perfect in ordering the What, How, When, and Wheres of His plans.

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello Allan

You will begin to see my point here. This came sooner then most of the time, for you seem to be more upfront then most.

What I'm saying is that God knew what He needed in order to fulfill that which He wanted. Beyond that James is really stretching it, as we don't and can't comprehend Gods knowledge but on a finite level of those things revealed in scripture. All we really know is Foreknow first, then predestined... That aside nothing is done without knowledge and this I believe includes God IMO as He speaks consistantly of His plans and purposes.

The 2 bold lines do not jive.

WHICH WAS 1ST....

1) God wanted/plan/reason/desire/longing/pleasure...WILLED..and THEN....foreknow what he needed for the plan

or..

2) God foreknew 1st...and then planned/reason/desire/longed/willed/predestined

or.

3) both at the same time?


Which is it Allan?

 

[Allan]

You are seeking a definitive answer in a place the none can actually be given James. Conjecture is not definitive by nature but with do regard I will give you your answer:

I stated:
(1) What I'm saying is that God knew what He needed in order to fulfill that which He wanted... (2) All we really know is Foreknow first, then predestined...

I copied what you bolded.

You replied:
The 2 bold lines do not jive.

Actually I only addressed His foreknowing and not predestining. If you take (1) and the add to it THEN based on His perfect Knowledge (What He saw as Pleasing to Him) He destined or decreed it to be and since it is before it WILL BE it is PREdestining an action before it's time.

Just a note on Predestined:
In the simplest rendering; To decide something WILL BE before it comes TO be.
This does not infer there is no knowledge of WHAT will be before it is determined TO be, but that whatever has been decided WILL BE before it has come to be due to the Knowledge one had before determining it's set course.

1) God wanted/plan/reason/desire/longing/pleasure...WILLED..and THEN....foreknow what he needed for the plan

or..

2) God foreknew 1st...and then planned/reason/desire/longed/willed/predestined

or.

3) both at the same time?

We could say that in God it may very well happen all at once or maybe it is seperate acts like man (though I doubt it) but then I've never meet God in person to ask Him. I have given my answer I think quite clearly - He foreknew THEN predestined... But just to be sure maybe I'll call Kenneth Copeland and ask him since he talk to God personally all time and even seen Him to. :laugh:

This is where we as man apply logic to better (hopefully) understand the possible 'logical' order in which God does things. But this does not mean God actaully does things in the set logical assuption we place it in. Though sometimes He does give a little insight (maybe not to full understand) but that we may know it was done in His full knowledge.

 

[Jarthur001]

I have given my answer I think quite clearly - He foreknew THEN predestined... But just to be sure maybe I'll call Kenneth Copeland and ask him since he talk to God personally all time and even seen Him to. :laugh:

Allan,

One does not need to know the order, for the order is not the problem as we shall see in just a few more post.

Your idea on this ..is that God foreknew and then predestined.

I'm sure you agree no matter what order you place this, it all happened before creation.

so..in your view foreknowing and presdestined are not linked.

Looking at your order and using your view of understanding, God 1st knew Joe would believe, then you are saying God presdestined Joe to believe, then God made Joe.

Likewise, God knew Sally would never believe, and God presdestined Sally, and then God made Sally.

I know you may remove the Sally being predestined. But this is not the point. Did God give his Son to die for those He know would not believe? Was it the goal of God to save all of mankind? Did Christ die for the Whole world? Is Christ not willing that any should perish?

Stick with me...we are near the end. not end of the world...end of my point.

 

[Allan]

Looking at your order and using your view of understanding, God 1st knew Joe would believe, then you are saying God presdestined Joe to believe, then God made Joe.

Likewise, God knew Sally would never believe, and God presdestined Sally, and then God made Sally.

Uh, no. You are still following my view with your mindset.

Mine entails some different distinctions than yours do.
Man has the responsibility to choose when given the option. (= the Call) Man must even choose to do common good. (non-salvic, tainted, and unrighteous though it is)
Gods predestining is not about God knowing what one WILL do and then MAKING him do it. This predestination is a merger of the common free-will view with a Calvinistic twist (Those who don't hold to the "L" typically state this - That I personally know).

What I'm speaking of is God knowing they WILL believe the truth and what He knows they will do He predestines or decrees that their choice to BE - for accepting or rejecting.

All things move to His soveriegn end and are at work by His own Hand that all glory be His. This includes Him allowing Man the responsibility to accept or reject His Truth He reveals to Man without negating His planned purpose of ALL things. How, Because He knows ALL things and Mans choice is ALREADY in perfect union with His Plan. What an amazing God - :godisgood:


However, I do not remove predestined from Sally as God Knew that She would not Believe before her in a created stated did not believe. His predestining of Her is simply God saying So Be It!! Yet He still knows how He is played out in her life and the world according to His purpuse and Plan. :thumbsup:

 

[Jarthur001]

Allan,

This predestination is a merger of the common free-will view with a Calvinistic twist (Those who don't hold to the "L" typically state this - That I personally know).

Say what????


Now tell me how predestination works? Or better..predestination (proorizo) its meaning....and then tell me how it has a merger of the other partys freewill.

The reason why I ask...as it stands now I see no use of predestination in your order. What I mean is, if God foreknows, what does God predetermine or decide beforehand will happen? In other words could we not just say God foreknows and that is it. At this point in your view I see no need for God to decree anything. Sorry, just trying to understand your side.

 

[Brother Bob]

Allan; is it?
That they be predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son is what is predestinated if God foreknows at some time they believe.

 

[Jarthur001]

Allan; is it?
That they be predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son is what is predestinated if God foreknows at some time they believe.

I will wait and see what Allan says....

But your view is novel...

God foreknows Joe will be saved..
God also foreknows the new life Joe will now live in Christ.
God also foreknows that Joe has a changed life now, that on Sat. Dec 23rd, 2006 Joe will lie to his wife.
God also foreknows Joe will die in March 1st of 2007.
God foreknows Joe will be with Him in glory.
as it turns out...God knows everything that will happen to Joe.

God foreknows and then God predestinated what?

Again with this view God predestinated nothing. We could remove predestinated and it would change nothing. Allan and I have already went over this part. Allan says God is not locked in to what He foreknows and must only carry it out.

Allan has already said that God does not make because He knows....but because of a plan.

Yes but lets tweek something in your statement: God did not make light because He knew it must be made; He made light because He knew it must be as it is apart of His plan not that He forsaw He needed it. (as in working through differing plans to see which one is better)
All of this was Known to God and set in His plan due to knowledge of how something WILL work and what WILL be NEEDED in relation to how a thing will work, that all things be accomplished due TO His Work

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=885294&postcount=250

So where is the plan? The "plan" has to be before foreknowing if this is the driving force.

So far in this view all we can say is God knows...no plan....no decree..no predestinated....Just God knows.

 

[Brother Bob]

Wasn't talking to you! predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son is what is predestinated and that is to the believers for God sees all and is everlasting to everlasting. If God's plan is for the believers to be conformed to the image of His Son and He foreknows (according to time of man) who will believe then they are at some time predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son which leaves out your pre-chosen.