That's debatable but I do know this and nobody cane refute it..God knows who will and who won't!
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The case for the possibility of losing salvation?
- Thread starter StefanM
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ALL who reject Jesus are already guilty, so that means all of us before being saved![/QUOTE]
This was never the question, of course we're all guilty and that's why we need Christ! Maybe go back to the original comment by tim71 so you have a better understanding of the question we're trying to answer!
I'm not going to agree or disagree on your 1st question but without a doubt God knows who will or who won't! The scripture does speak of those God foreknew and scripture speaks on predestination so you can research those scriptures and draw your own conclusion! Now for the book of life I better understand what you're getting at..the book of life has the names of those belonging to God written in it so your name won't be found in it unless you are saved, those who die rejecting Christ were never in it to begin with! I hope that answers your question!
Changed my mind, I am going to answer your question! I personally do not believe God just randomly chose people to save, I believe that he knows who will and who won't! I would need to ask this question to better answer your question..can we reject God's calling? If we can't reject God's calling then I would have to say God did indeed pick out those he wanted to save! It's a difficult question to answer I suppose! I'm still a fairly new Christian and l lack a lot of knowledge! I probably shouldn't even be trying to answer questions on here lol
Salvation is provided for ALL.
It is a payment already made.
It requires one to Have faith, trust, believe & submit to receiving forgiveness, BEFORE it becomes effected.
Once forgiven, the salvation is received by the individual.
Once an individual receives Salvation, it can not be lost.
A person can not become "un-saved".
A person WHO "goes through the motions". Alter call for example, and CLAIMS to believe, BUT DOES NOT, is one who has called on the Holy Spirit and LIED, which can NEVER be forgiven, thus, the man NOT FORGIVEN, is a man who therefore can not become a recipient of Salvation.
Such a man can claim, he WAS SAVED, (because he went to an alter call, was water baptized, or whatever), but that is false. He was NEVER saved, if he claims to have been saved, then claims he no longer believes.
A Saved man IS submitting his life unto God, and His Keeping.
Once saved, the Spirit of God, ie the POWER of God within the man, Keeps the man unto Himself.
A Saved man, shall become Gods inheritance. (which God shall "redeem" / call / collect / rapture unto Himself) all together.
We, are too weak to KEEP our vow of faith unto God ~ without His Power in us, which He provides for us.
Can you point me to scripture supporting this please? Scripture says there is only one sin unto death and that is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit which is a rejection of Christ/unbelief! I don't recall ever reading scripture supporting that!
Lying to the Holy Spirit IS Lying to the Holy Spirit and there is no forgiveness for such act.
A man who calls on the Lord, claims he believes, when he doesn't, IS lying to the Holy Spirit.
A man without forgiveness, can not be saved.
A spirit being, such as Satan, can not be forgiven.
Matt 12
[32] And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Acts 5
[3] But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
[4] Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
[5] And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost:
Isa 14
[12] How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
[13] For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
[14] I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Ananias deliberately lied, there are many that believe they're saved because they weren't taught right, big difference! My sister for instance thinks she is saved because her parents made her get baptized when she was 11, is she condemned? No! I don't know if God has ever called her to repentance but if he were to she can be saved because she was baptized in ignorance! Same as Paul blasphemed God but he done it in ignorance, just as my sister was baptized in ignorance! There are many being mislead into thinking they're saved but if they learn different and repent then they can be saved!
Point one ~ your sister. Water did not save your sister. Faith is what saves a person. A vow is what seals a person. She knows her own belief and if she believes she IS saved, she has announced her own belief by the one who saves, ie Christ Jesus.
Point two ~ intentional lying. Precisely! It is not a secret, men have publicly declared belief and before witnesses called on the Lord and professed belief, BUT yet do not "really" believe. The reasons why they publicly profess are numerous. Probably the worse case I would say, is for a minister to make such claim.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friend...yterian-minister-who-doesnt-believe-in-god-2/
Point three ~ many mislead. Agree.
God chooses those to whom the death of Jesus will have that Grace applied towards...
On the lost ever have Blasphemed against the Holy Sprit, and the lost keep on rejecting His work in their lives!
The Blasphemy against the Spirit cannot be done today, only at time of Christ!
To your point ~
Yes God knows all things. Man doesn't. It is man who makes his own choices. It is God who already knows a mans choice.
Yes God calls (chooses, picks, etc.) those men WHOM God KNOWS (before the man), what the man will of his own accord choose.
For example; before John the Baptist ever "exited" his mothers womb (ie was earthly born); John was given the indwelling Holy Spirit. Amazing eh? John had not yet been born, had not made one announcement of submitting unto God.....but yet God chose John to fulfill prophecy of announcing Jesus the Lamb of God. Yes, God chose John, because God already knew John would choose to be faithful to God. And Biblical history bares the testimony, that John was a faithful believer and dutiful servant.
God knows what every earthly man SHALL do, pick and choose. And God has prepared a place for all.
Those who stand with Him, and those who stand against Him.
uh, no. Only at the time of Christ? From the beginning has been the time of Gods Power and Wisdom, (who IS Christ) and Word, (who is Jesus); Yesterday, Today and Forever is the Time of Christ.
Gen 1
[2] And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
1Cor.1
- [24] But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
Luke 4:14
And Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit, and news about Him spread through all the surrounding district.
You do believe in Jesus as being God, and the Holy Spirit also as being God?uh, no. Only at the time of Christ? From the beginning has been the time of Gods Power and Wisdom, (who IS Christ). Yesterday, Today and Forever is the Time of Christ.
Gen 1
[2] And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
1Cor.1
Gods Spirit is His Power.
- [24] But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
Luke 4:14
And Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit, and news about Him spread through all the surrounding district.
1Cor.12
We can "NAME" our parts, if we choose, (as some do here on this forum, name their word...( ie like Yeshua1 or stevenWM1963, etc.) God named His Word, Jesus.
We can "REVEAL" our word, by sending it forth out of our mouth...(ie speaking, writing) God sent His word forth out of His mouth in the likeness as a man.
We can "HIDE" our "spirit", (from other men) which is OUR TRUTH in our hearts; even while our minds can plot deceit and speak forth lies. We know our truth in our hearts, and so does God.
God named His Truth, Jesus.
As God declared He with in His Word and His Word is with Him, one with the other and one IS the other.
Isa 45 [23] I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Has every knee bowed or every tongue sworn yet? No. Thus Gods Word which has gone out of Gods mouth, is still being heard, spread, and with us today.
Isa 48 [3] I have declared the former things from the beginning; and they went forth out of my mouth, and I shewed them; I did them suddenly, and they came to pass.
From the beginning has Gods word came forth out of His mouth.
Isa 55 [11] So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
What "thing" did not send His word to?
Mary's womb. And from Mary's womb was revealed the "holy thing", God sent to her womb, and what it was to be called.
Luke.1
John 19
[28] After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
[29] Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth.
[30] When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
After all things of Gods Word, manifested in a body, was accomplished, that BODY returned to God and His Word in Spirit remains on earth.
Heb.10
[4] Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.
Isa 48
[12] Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.
- [12] For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
- [25] Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?
We can "NAME" our parts, if we choose, (as some do here on this forum, name their word...( ie like Yeshua1 or stevenWM1963, etc.) God named His Word, Jesus.
We can "REVEAL" our word, by sending it forth out of our mouth...(ie speaking, writing) God sent His word forth out of His mouth in the likeness as a man.
We can "HIDE" our "spirit", (from other men) which is OUR TRUTH in our hearts; even while our minds can plot deceit and speak forth lies. We know our truth in our hearts, and so does God.
God named His Truth, Jesus.
As God declared He with in His Word and His Word is with Him, one with the other and one IS the other.
Isa 45 [23] I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Has every knee bowed or every tongue sworn yet? No. Thus Gods Word which has gone out of Gods mouth, is still being heard, spread, and with us today.
Isa 48 [3] I have declared the former things from the beginning; and they went forth out of my mouth, and I shewed them; I did them suddenly, and they came to pass.
From the beginning has Gods word came forth out of His mouth.
Isa 55 [11] So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
What "thing" did not send His word to?
Mary's womb. And from Mary's womb was revealed the "holy thing", God sent to her womb, and what it was to be called.
Luke.1
- [35] And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
John 19
[28] After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
[29] Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth.
[30] When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
After all things of Gods Word, manifested in a body, was accomplished, that BODY returned to God and His Word in Spirit remains on earth.
Heb.10
- [5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
- [10] By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
[4] Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.
Isa 48
[12] Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.
John.1
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2] The same was in the beginning with God.
Rev 1
[8] I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
I am one of those who believe that you can lose salvation. 1 Timothy 4:1 says that "in the later times some will desert the faith and occupy themselves with deceiving spirits and demonic teachings" (NET). If they desert the faith, they must have previously held to it. John 15 talks about believers who can be removed as a branch from a vine.
When Paul is writing to the Philippians that he "[was] sure of this, that [God] who began a good work in [them] will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (1:6), he was speaking to the ones who were known by God to be eternally saved. God exists outside of time.
In 1 John 2:19, John writes that if they were saved forever, they would have continued with them. Therefore, statements made to these initially saved people, like Paul's above, that God will complete their salvation to the end, are not really addressed to them, otherwise they would have continued meeting with them.
That being said, I do believe that you can regain salvation, just like Peter did (Luke 22:32). "When you have turned back, strengthen your brothers" (NET). James 5:19-20 says that "...if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone turns him back, he should know that the one who turns a sinner back from his wandering path will save that person’s soul from death..." (NET), showing that it is possible to be returned to the faith.
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Deserting the faith, is not ~ having GAINED Salvation and then becoming UN-Saved.
Anyone can have faith. It is precisely what one has WHEN they are following along, hearing, reading and learning ABOUT God. Take note of Judas. He followed, he learned, he listened, he believed ~ ie he had faith. But what he did NOT have was the indwelling Spirit.
Judas stopped trusting and believing, and thus lost faith.
The minute he didn't understand something, he jumped ship and stopped believing, stopped following, didn't trust, and thus departed the faith.
So it is true, one can have faith and then depart the faith.
It is true, one MUST have faith BEFORE He calls on the Lord to SUBMIT unto the Lord.
Every one of the Disciples (except Judas) continue following even when they didn't understand, even at times when some doubted, and wondered.....they never stopped trusting.
Every one of the Disciples (except Judas) we find in Scripture them declaring to the Lord they BELIEVE in Him (that is them calling on the Lord and confessing / submitting unto Him) and thereafter every one of the Disciples receive Salvation of the Lords Spirit coming within them to restore their soul and quicken their spirits.
Yes a man can depart the faith. However a faithful man who has received Salvation (restored soul) and a Quickened spirit (ie their natural spirit born again into a spiritual spirit), also have the indwelling of Gods Spirit (Power of God) and such man shall NEVER depart the faith.
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