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The Catholic "Salvation"
- Thread starter Brother Adam
- Start date
D
dumbox1
Guest
DHK,
To summarize paragraph 1213 very briefly, "Baptism is a very good thing," for the reasons mentioned. But that paragraph says nothing about the question of "what about those who aren't baptized." The paragraphs I posted up above do.
Mark H.
To summarize paragraph 1213 very briefly, "Baptism is a very good thing," for the reasons mentioned. But that paragraph says nothing about the question of "what about those who aren't baptized." The paragraphs I posted up above do.
Mark H.
D
dumbox1
Guest
DHK,
Paragraph 1215, in the "what is this sacrament called?" section, deals with various phrases associated with the sacrament.
The paragraphs I posted above deal with whether God can save someone who's not baptized. (Hint: the answer is, "God is God and can save who he wants. It's not for us to put limits on him." Which is the meaning of the last sentence of paragraph 1257).
Mark H.
Paragraph 1215, in the "what is this sacrament called?" section, deals with various phrases associated with the sacrament.
The paragraphs I posted above deal with whether God can save someone who's not baptized. (Hint: the answer is, "God is God and can save who he wants. It's not for us to put limits on him." Which is the meaning of the last sentence of paragraph 1257).
Mark H.
"Which is why it says "many" -- it's only talking about some of the folks covered by the rest of the paragraph."
--"There are many..." "They...they...They...they"
There is never any differentiation between the "there are many," and the "theys" throughout the rest of the paragraph. One is to assume then, on the basis of how it is written, that the Catholic Church is writing to those who already have an affinity with the sacraments and an adoration of Mary. The purpose is stated at the end of the paragraph--to draw them back into the One True Church.
1215 This sacrament is also called "the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit," for it signifies and actually brings about the birth of water and the Spirit without which no one "can enter the kingdom of God."[7]
This paragraph on baptism (inspite of what you say) is explicitly clear) in its theology. The sacrament of baptism signifies the birth of water and of the Spirt. Without it no one can enter the Kingdom of God.
In other words there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church. There could be no more explicit statement than that one. There are many other such statements both in the Catechism and in Vatican II. Catholics just don't want to admit it.
DHK
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dumbox1
Guest
Dear DHK,
Your desire to have someone condemn you rather reminds me of a child with a "kick me" sign on his back -- except that you're sticking the sign there yourself.
It's after five and I've got to run, but I'll leave you with our Lord's words to the adulterous woman in John 8:
"Has no one condemned you?"
"No one, sir," she said.
"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."
In Christ,
Mark H.
Your desire to have someone condemn you rather reminds me of a child with a "kick me" sign on his back -- except that you're sticking the sign there yourself.
It's after five and I've got to run, but I'll leave you with our Lord's words to the adulterous woman in John 8:
"Has no one condemned you?"
"No one, sir," she said.
"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."
In Christ,
Mark H.
D
dumbox1
Guest
P.S. -- Paragraph 15 of Lumen Gentium really isn't as complicated as you're pretending. "They," "many" -- ordinary English words. Try reading it again.
DHK,
When I get a little extra time, I have to respond to Mark on some issues, but it appears to me after scanning over the last 3 pages of this thread that Mark is saying when a person chooses not to believe the Catholic doctrines, then we are not condemned by the Catholic Church.
1. We don't care whether we're condemned by the Catholic Church or not
2. All those Catholic volumes of rules don't apply to anyone who is not a Catholic.
3. In the remote chance that Jesus was a Catholic and the Apostles were forerunners of Catholicism etc,..........we are still standing tall with God because Jesus said "If they are not against us; they are for us".
Either way, we're saved and Catholicism has no voice in the matter.
They're only attempting to control their own members.
Otherwise, Catholicism doesn't matter.
Later,
Singer
When I get a little extra time, I have to respond to Mark on some issues, but it appears to me after scanning over the last 3 pages of this thread that Mark is saying when a person chooses not to believe the Catholic doctrines, then we are not condemned by the Catholic Church.
1. We don't care whether we're condemned by the Catholic Church or not
2. All those Catholic volumes of rules don't apply to anyone who is not a Catholic.
3. In the remote chance that Jesus was a Catholic and the Apostles were forerunners of Catholicism etc,..........we are still standing tall with God because Jesus said "If they are not against us; they are for us".
Either way, we're saved and Catholicism has no voice in the matter.
They're only attempting to control their own members.
Otherwise, Catholicism doesn't matter.
Later,
Singer
It is not merely me; it is all. The Catholic Church, like any cult, condemns all who are outside its fold. It plainly teaches that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church. Catholic Baptism is the only door to salvation. Without it you cannot be saved. Very exclusive indeed.
DHK
DHK,
What Mark is trying to say is that we should not take Catholics or their publications at their word.
If "There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church" does not mean as it appears to us, then quite likely we misunderstand "The One True Church" phrase. Either way it would ultimately only apply to Catholics Anyhow.
These Catholics have spent 10 threads trying to discredit themselves and I'm becoming convinced.
Makes me wonder why so many thousand resistors of Catholicism were killed by Roman Catholics over the centuries when it didn't even apply to them.
MAN I'VE GOT ALOT TO LEARN.
Food for thought.
Singer
[ February 12, 2004, 05:59 PM: Message edited by: Singer ]
What Mark is trying to say is that we should not take Catholics or their publications at their word.
If "There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church" does not mean as it appears to us, then quite likely we misunderstand "The One True Church" phrase. Either way it would ultimately only apply to Catholics Anyhow.
These Catholics have spent 10 threads trying to discredit themselves and I'm becoming convinced.
Makes me wonder why so many thousand resistors of Catholicism were killed by Roman Catholics over the centuries when it didn't even apply to them.
MAN I'VE GOT ALOT TO LEARN.
Food for thought.
Singer
[ February 12, 2004, 05:59 PM: Message edited by: Singer ]
Here's one to research, Mark H.
The search did not turn up anything.
trying2understand
2,000 Posts Club
Member # 1565
posted May 31, 2003 12:54 AM
Hey, I'll come right out and say it.
Salvation is through the Church.
Christ established one Church for that very purpose. It is through the Church that Christ
established that we find Christ and it is through the Church that we live a Christ filled life.
If you guys want to putter around the edges in your little nondenominational assembly,
that's up to you.
But if you want to meet our Lord in the flesh in this life, you'll have to meet Him in the Church.
Ron
The search did not turn up anything.
trying2understand
2,000 Posts Club
Member # 1565
posted May 31, 2003 12:54 AM
Hey, I'll come right out and say it.
Salvation is through the Church.
Christ established one Church for that very purpose. It is through the Church that Christ
established that we find Christ and it is through the Church that we live a Christ filled life.
If you guys want to putter around the edges in your little nondenominational assembly,
that's up to you.
But if you want to meet our Lord in the flesh in this life, you'll have to meet Him in the Church.
Ron
Brother Adam
New Member
Mel is schismatic, not to mention fallible.
Just trying to douse the flames as Christians work hard to tear each other apart.
Shame on you Jason
Gibson said:
"There is no salvation for
those outside the (Catholic) church," Gibson
replied. "I believe it."
And speaking of his Protestant wife:
"And it's just not fair if she doesn't
make it; she's better than I am. But that is a pronouncement from the chair. I go with it."
Gibson said:
"There is no salvation for
those outside the (Catholic) church," Gibson
replied. "I believe it."
And speaking of his Protestant wife:
"And it's just not fair if she doesn't
make it; she's better than I am. But that is a pronouncement from the chair. I go with it."
1. How do you know that Mel is schismatic? Just curious.
2. The point was that a conservative catholic does not know what the supposed meaning of 'no salvation outside the church' means, which goes to the point of the concept being unclear. Not to mention that the idea did change from its original intent.
3. Do you think, as a stated protestant, that the Pope is infallible? In reading many of your posts I find myself wondering if you are a catholic or a protestant or something else. There are times when you do rightfully question protestants, but at other times you clearly demonstrate an amazing amount of misunderstanding of the catholic teachings (yes, I said that) and why many of them are false.
jason
Carson Weber
<img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">
How do you know that Mel is schismatic?
Because I told him.
My employer had a private screening with Mel and asked him, "Is John Paul II the legitimate successor of St. Peter?"
Mel answered, "No."
He then asked, "Is there any chance you could be wrong?"
Mel paused a good ten seconds and then answered, "No."
Mel is what we call a sedevacantist.
Because I told him.
My employer had a private screening with Mel and asked him, "Is John Paul II the legitimate successor of St. Peter?"
Mel answered, "No."
He then asked, "Is there any chance you could be wrong?"
Mel paused a good ten seconds and then answered, "No."
Mel is what we call a sedevacantist.
Brother Adam
New Member
1. How do you know that Mel is schismatic? Just curious.
Carsons answered this several times.
3. Do you think, as a stated protestant, that the Pope is infallible?
No.
In reading many of your posts I find myself wondering if you are a catholic or a protestant or something else.
Its better to ask than wonder.
There are times when you do rightfully question protestants, but at other times you clearly demonstrate an amazing amount of misunderstanding of the catholic teachings (yes, I said that) and why many of them are false.
Prove it.
Carsons answered this several times.
3. Do you think, as a stated protestant, that the Pope is infallible?
No.
In reading many of your posts I find myself wondering if you are a catholic or a protestant or something else.
Its better to ask than wonder.
There are times when you do rightfully question protestants, but at other times you clearly demonstrate an amazing amount of misunderstanding of the catholic teachings (yes, I said that) and why many of them are false.
Prove it.
GraceSaves
New Member
This has already been demonstrated. If nothing else, Carson's employer, Scott Hahn, has had a personal discussion about Gibson's faith WITH Gibson.
Mel is not a conservative Catholic, the end. Mel is a conservative Catholic who rejects the Second Vatican Council and the authority of the present pope, thus putting him in schism.
No, it was simply fleshed out in a council that Gibson rejects.
No. It was re-evaluted given the presently growing Protestant population that was not present in previous centuries. All that was done was, as is said in the Council documents, to view it from the positive side and not just the negative side. From the positive side, we can see the fruits of the Catholic Church present in ecclesial communities, namely, in valid Baptisms.
Three is for Adam, so I'll leave it for him.
That is what we call hearsay.
Do you actually have any evidense that he is a schimatic (a public statement of the nature you describe would suffice). If not, do you honestly feel you are in a position to assert that Mr. Gibson is in fact a schismatic? (answer: you are not).
jason
GraceSaves
New Member
The Italian newspaper Il Giornale quoted Mel saying that the Vatican is a "wolf in sheep's clothing." Do a Google search - you'll find countless references.
That, and he built his own church, apart from any Diocese.
That, and he built his own church, apart from any Diocese.