The Catholics are not lost

[DHK]

Show the class again just where in Scripture do we read salvation is by grace alone, faith alone, and Christ alone?

In the risen Christ
-

Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
Salvation is by grace. And it is by grace alone. Only by the grace of God can one be saved. That specific grace is found in the shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ who paid the penalty of our sins on the cross of Calvary.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
--It is by grace alone for grace is mutually exclusive of works. If it is by works it is not by grace. If it is by grace it cannot be by grace. It is either one or the other. It cannot be both. Thus it is by grace and not by works.

Back to Ephesians:
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
--Salvation is by faith, and by faith alone.
Faith is mutually exclusive of works. If it involves works then it is not of faith. If it is of faith it is not of works. It plainly says that it is not of works. Why? Because salvation is of faith--the obvious implication that it is by faith alone. There is no other conclusion.

Thus it is by grace alone, and by faith alone.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
--You cannot add anything here.
It is by faith alone that one is justified. Nothing added nothing subtracted. It is only faith. Do not subtract or add to the word of God.

Now to the verse that the RCC loves to throw into the mix:
First the context:
James 2:19-20 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
--The "faith" that James is speaking of is the same "faith" being referred to in verse 20.
In verse 20 the word "faith" has an article preceding it if you check the Greek.
In other words it could be (and should be) translated as "the faith" or referring back to verse 19 "that kind of faith." The faith that James was speaking of, and the faith that Abraham had was not the "same kind of faith" as the demons had in verse 19. That is the contrast that is being made in this chapter.

So in context: Do you have the faith of demons? Is that the faith you have? They believe in God also. They believe in his existence. They know that they are defeated. They know their fate.
Do you believe in George Bush? Do you have the faith that he exists, that he is the President of the U.S. Yes, you do. But that kind of faith is not going to save you. That is all that James is saying.
"But wilt thou know O man "that that kind of faith" is without works and is dead."
It is without works because it is not a saving faith. The salvation comes first. The works always follows the transformed work. They don't go with it, but follow after it; are a result of it.

 

[annsni]

Hmmm...Mary's dead...I guess God didn't get the memo, b/c from what I read, God's the God of the living not of the dead...Furthermore we get a vivid picture of the saints in heaven around the throne of God offering the prayers of the saints under the form of golden bowls of incense...ho hum...

InXC
-

To us on earth, she's dead. If I recall correctly, communicating with the dead is a sin.

Notice that those who are holding the bowl of incense are not saints - they are elders - specifically 24 elders (don't see Mary's name listed there nor St. Paul or St. Andrew...) and the prayers are not of theirs saying "Here is what Joe prayed for". Incense was an offering to the Lord - our prayers are an offering. Read it in context and you'll get it.

ho hum.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

To us on earth, she's dead.

To me, being a member of the Body of Christ; she’s not dead, but very much alive. One doesn’t cease being a member of the Body of Christ at death.

If I recall correctly, communicating with the dead is a sin.

Right, its called necromantic, which is the practice of conjuring up spirits for the purpose of gaining information…example a séance…we’re talking about two very different things…one is an occult practice and the other is a humble request, what prayer is…

Notice that those who are holding the bowl of incense are not saints - they are elders - specifically 24 elders (don't see Mary's name listed there nor St. Paul or St. Andrew...) and the prayers are not of theirs saying "Here is what Joe prayed for". Incense was an offering to the Lord - our prayers are an offering.

Regardless if they’re saints or elders, you just strengthened my argument that those in heaven can hear our prayers…

InXC
-

 

[annsni]

To me, being a member of the Body of Christ; she’s not dead, but very much alive. One doesn’t cease being a member of the Body of Christ at death.

Correct - but there are those on earth and those in heaven. We cannot communicate between the two.

Right, its called necromantic, which is the practice of conjuring up spirits for the purpose of gaining information…example a séance…we’re talking about two very different things…one is an occult practice and the other is a humble request, what prayer is…

Unless they're all knowing, and omnipresent, they cannot hear our prayers. There's no difference in either way - a humble request (which they cannot hear) or gaining information.

Regardless if they’re saints or elders, you just strengthened my argument that those in heaven can hear our prayers…

Maybe in your mind but not through Scripture. Can you deduct from the passages in Revelation that they know the prayers and that they themselves are asking for them?

Can you show me one verse where God tells us to pray to those who are dead?

 

[4His_glory]

The Lord Jesus Christ taught us how to pray and the only person we see Him telling us to address in heaven is the Father. That pretty much rules out Mary or anyone else.

Besides why would anyone want to pray to someone who is not God. The privilege of the redeemed is that they have direct access to God through the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[D28guy]

Matt,

"Agnus' question remains: where is the Scripture or Scriptures which teach that one is saved by faith alone? You haven't answered that. Neither has anyone else. Chapter and verse, please, in each case,"

Well, I'm disapointed in you Matt. As far as I can recall, this is the 1st time you have sunken to Agnus Dei's level. Congratulations.

In the past you have been above it to some extent.

To demand that a *specific word* be included in a passage of scripture makes both of you come across as childish, petty, and disenguinuous.

Here are 2 passages of scripture among the multitudes...

"For it is by grace that you are saved, through faith. And that not of yourself, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast."

"21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,

22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all[a] who believe. For there is no difference;

23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,

26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.


27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law."

Those are 2 passages of scripture among the hundreds that clearly proclaim Gods truth that we are justified and saved in one and only one way...

By grace ALONE, through faith ALONE, in Christ ALONE.



And Matt or Agnus Dei...

I can anticipate your response:

"Oh, but that is speaking of works done under the law, not works done under grace!!!"

Utter nonsense....so please spare us.

Mike

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Hmmm...Mary's dead...I guess God didn't get the memo, b/c from what I read, God's the God of the living not of the dead...Furthermore we get a vivid picture of the saints in heaven around the throne of God offering the prayers of the saints under the form of golden bowls of incense...ho hum...

InXC
-

You need to go study more, AD. Scripture does not say the saints in heaven are offering the prayers of the saints.

And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer [it] with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. (Revelation 8:3)

It is an angel that offers those prayers... not saints.

People who die do not become angels.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

To us on earth, she's dead. If I recall correctly, communicating with the dead is a sin.

Notice that those who are holding the bowl of incense are not saints - they are elders - specifically 24 elders (don't see Mary's name listed there nor St. Paul or St. Andrew...) and the prayers are not of theirs saying "Here is what Joe prayed for". Incense was an offering to the Lord - our prayers are an offering. Read it in context and you'll get it.

ho hum.

What is interesting is the elders are holding the vials (Rev 5), but it is an angel who offers them (Rev 8).

 

[Agnus_Dei]

We cannot communicate between the two.

We don’t “communicate” with those in heaven as you and I would communicate here on earth. When I ask my patron Saint to pray for me, it’s no different than me asking YOU to pray for me…I’m not asking for a response from you or the saint, neither am I looking for you to answer my prayers or the saint.

I’m asking only you and my saint to offer my prayers along with me to God.

Scripture says that God answers the prayers of the righteous, right? So how much more righteous are those in heaven than those here on earth?

Unless they're all knowing, and omnipresent, they cannot hear our prayers. There's no difference in either way - a humble request (which they cannot hear) or gaining information.

You should try and separate yourself from restricting your thoughts on this from our experiences of our dimensions of space and time. It’s not like heaven is in the next room and mortal and unglorified people are restricted by space and time. The saints in heaven are not bound by our definitions of earthly space and time.

Scripture clearly states that we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses. You do know the definition of what a witness is don’t you? So yes, its safe to say they do know what’s going on here on earth.

Even my former Baptist preacher would say that his Sunday School teacher would look over the balcony of heaven and see him preaching…

Maybe in your mind but not through Scripture. Can you deduct from the passages in Revelation that they know the prayers and that they themselves are asking for them?

Here’s what we do know, Rev 5:8 states that the elders in heaven fell down before God and each had vials full of odors or incense, which are the prayers of the saints. Furthermore, prayers are not physical things and cannot be offered to God physically. Thus the saints are offering our prayers to God mentally, or in other words, interceding for us.

Can you show me one verse where God tells us to pray to those who are dead?

Can you show me where those in heaven are not alive, but are dead zombies? Can you show also where God forbids the saints in heaven from interceding for us on earth?

InXC
-

 

[Agnus_Dei]

You need to go study more, AD. Scripture does not say the saints in heaven are offering the prayers of the saints.

And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer [it] with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. (Revelation 8:3)

It is an angel that offers those prayers... not saints.

People who die do not become angels.

OK, so the angels in heaven also are offering our prayers...yet another example...thanks

InXC
-

 

[D28guy]

Agnus Dei,

"We don’t “communicate” with those in heaven as you and I would communicate here on earth. When I ask my patron Saint to pray for me, it’s no different than me asking YOU to pray for me…"

Its completly different. Me praying for you is acceptable. You attempting to contact the dead is unacceptable. Those who have passed on are called the dead because they have experienced their physical death. They are alive now in spirit form, but they are neither omniscient nor omnipresent.

They can not hear anyones prayers.

"I’m not asking for a response from you or the saint, neither am I looking for you to answer my prayers or the saint.

I’m asking only you and my saint to offer my prayers along with me to God."

They can no more hear your prayers then someone standing in Ethiopia right now can hear them.

It is God and God alone that were are to turn to for help, and He is the only one who can hear and answer our prayers.

We are forbidden to attempt to contact the dead.

Mike

 

[mrtumnus]

Correct - but there are those on earth and those in heaven. We cannot communicate between the two.




Unless they're all knowing, and omnipresent, they cannot hear our prayers. There's no difference in either way - a humble request (which they cannot hear) or gaining information.




Maybe in your mind but not through Scripture. Can you deduct from the passages in Revelation that they know the prayers and that they themselves are asking for them?

Can you show me one verse where God tells us to pray to those who are dead?

So in your view, once you die are you still a member of the body of Christ?

 

[annsni]

We don’t “communicate” with those in heaven as you and I would communicate here on earth. When I ask my patron Saint to pray for me, it’s no different than me asking YOU to pray for me…I’m not asking for a response from you or the saint, neither am I looking for you to answer my prayers or the saint.

I’m asking only you and my saint to offer my prayers along with me to God.

But there is not one iota of Scripture that shows us that those who are in the presence of God listen to the prayers of those alive on earth and bring them to Him.

Scripture says that God answers the prayers of the righteous, right? So how much more righteous are those in heaven than those here on earth?

Can you show me where those in heaven pray?

You should try and separate yourself from restricting your thoughts on this from our experiences of our dimensions of space and time. It’s not like heaven is in the next room and mortal and unglorified people are restricted by space and time. The saints in heaven are not bound by our definitions of earthly space and time.

Show me Scripture where they can hear our prayers.

Scripture clearly states that we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses. You do know the definition of what a witness is don’t you? So yes, its safe to say they do know what’s going on here on earth.

Are they witnesses OF us? Are they watching us? Or are they witnesses of God's grace? I'd say that it's the latter.

Even my former Baptist preacher would say that his Sunday School teacher would look over the balcony of heaven and see him preaching…

Sorry - won't take your Baptist preacher's word over the Word of God.

Here’s what we do know, Rev 5:8 states that the elders in heaven fell down before God and each had vials full of odors or incense, which are the prayers of the saints. Furthermore, prayers are not physical things and cannot be offered to God physically. Thus the saints are offering our prayers to God mentally, or in other words, interceding for us.

There's no Scriptural support for this conclusion. Our prayers are contained in the bowl. Note that there are a lot of metaphors and such in Revelation. To say that the saints are offering our prayers to God mentally and interceding for us is not at all supported by the passages since #1 they are not saints and #2 there is but One who intercedes for us - Jesus Christ.

Can you show me where those in heaven are not alive, but are dead zombies? Can you show also where God forbids the saints in heaven from interceding for us on earth?

InXC
-

No but I can show you where they are no longer crying (and to hear the prayers of the saints on earth would most certainly break a heart) but they are worshipping the Lord forever.

Once more - show me ONE Scripture where someone prays to someone who is dead on earth, or ONE Scripture where God says to do it and I'll accept it. But I see that we are told to pray to the Father in the Son's name and that there is ONE Intercessor.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

OK, so the angels in heaven also are offering our prayers...yet another example...thanks

InXC
-

It doesn't say angels, it says angel. You do realize that the Lord Jesus Christ is referred to as 'the angel of the Lord' on many occasions, do you not?

Also, Jesus Himself said in the Gospel of John that if anything is asked in His name, He will ask the Father on our behalf. He is that angel in Revelation 8, our prayers are offered to God... through the Lord Jesus Christ.

Not Mary, not Joseph, not Thomas, nor any other mere mortal who lived and died on this earth

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

Agnus_Dei are you still a Methodist?

You talk like you are a Catholic and I notice that you are a member of a Catholic board.

Darren are you still a Baptist?

You talk like you are a Catholic.

If neither of you are Catholic...why are you both promoting their heresies?

 

[TCGreek]

It's either We come to Christ alone, through grace alone, by faith alone, or We're looking at another Gospel.

This, btw, is at the very core of the Galatian Letter.

 

[Pastor Larry]

I think there is some confusion due to conflation of ideas. It is important to separate Catholic people from Catholic doctrine. It is possible that Catholic people may be saved. It is not possible that Catholic doctrine is saving doctrine. Catholic doctrine regarding how one comes to Christ is contradictory to the Scriptures, and must be rejected. All one needs to do is compare the Catechism with Scriptures. It is, on the other hand, entirely possible that people attend a Catholic church while not believing the official dogma of their church.

I would recommend that you listen to R.C. Sproul's messages from the Together for the Gospel conference in 2006 and 2008. It is very helpful in clearing up some of the misconceptions here on both sides.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Agnus_Dei are you still a Methodist?

You talk like you are a Catholic and I notice that you are a member of a Catholic board.

If you are NOT a Catholic; why are you promoting their beliefs?

I was a Baptist...and yada, yada, yada...started attending a Methodist Church. Discovered the Baptist Board, while I was attending a Methodist Church...and yada, yada, yada...started a Catholic RCIA class...and yada, yada, yada, thought going from Protestantism to Catholicism isn't like changing toothpaste here (to cop a phrase from Sinfield), so I started Orthordox Catechesis and discovered just how far off the tracks the RCC had become since 1054 and praise the Lord, my patience of waiting and praying for almost 4 years has paid off, I have found the true faith and the true Church.

So soon, God willing, I'll be a member of the Orthodox Christian Church which is Evangelical, but not Protestant; catholic, but not Roman, it is Orthodox, but not Jewish; it is not Non-Denominational, it is Pre-Denominational. The Orthodox Christian Church is believed, preserved, defended, taught and died for the faith of the Apostles for 2,000 years.

BTW, how do we update our profile?

InXC
-

 

[Whowillgo]

Sadly most do not realize that the RCC is not just a church to its members it is a culture. 70% of the membership of the church I pastor were prior Catholics. Without a doubt the common statement I receive from them is that they had never heard the truth before. All of them could trace their roots back several generations in the Catholic church. The mass within itselfs precludes Christ's final sacrifice. The RCC has many Christians but they did not come to know Him within Catholicism. They came to know Him, the same way all do through conviction of the Holy Spirit. Many though refuse to leave the culture.

 

[TCGreek]

I think there is some confusion due to conflation of ideas. It is important to separate Catholic people from Catholic doctrine. It is possible that Catholic people may be saved. It is not possible that Catholic doctrine is saving doctrine. Catholic doctrine regarding how one comes to Christ is contradictory to the Scriptures, and must be rejected. All one needs to do is compare the Catechism with Scriptures. It is, on the other hand, entirely possible that people attend a Catholic church while not believing the official dogma of their church.

I would recommend that you listen to R.C. Sproul's messages from the Together for the Gospel conference in 2006 and 2008. It is very helpful in clearing up some of the misconceptions here on both sides.

I've listened to both of those messages and read his book Faith Alone, and I quite agree with you, Pastor Larry.