The Children whom God hath given me

[Iconoclast]

Since you also referenced Psalm 22 in the OP, let's have a look at that as well, and see if "the children" are mentioned:

Ps 22:22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
23 Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
25 My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
28 For the kingdom is the LORD'S: and he is the governor among the nations.

Nope, no "children" mentioned. Looks like this is the fulfillment of the Lord's Prayer "thy Kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth"
Looks like the subject is "my brethren, the seed of Jacob, the seed of Israel". "Seed" is genetic, genetic Hebrews (Jews).

The children that have been given are found in the nations...they are scattered worldwide....in all the ends of the earth....

50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

If you cannot accept my clarification in post #37 then there is no much hope for you

.

You are a suspect DHK based on past performances.

What do you mean I don't have a choice.

Because it is clearly described in scripture.

Why did God give Moses the Law, and for whom did he give it to?

The moral law was already in place.God gave Moses additional instruction as a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ.

Were the instructions that He gave to Moses passed down to you to build a tabernacle? Is it in backyard? Have you finished building it yet? Why not?

Another clown post now?:laugh: You cannot help yourself can you? The instructions given to them speak to the church in that God is in complete control of its growth.

What about the Temple described in Ezekiel? When are you going to finish that one? If it is all written for I want to see some action from you!

That speaks of God building the church.

You have an unhealthy fear of dispensationalism.

No... I do not fear it having escaped it now.

You see it everywhere.

I do....biblical illiteracy is very high right now.

It is hiding in every corner, in the shadows, behind every bush, ready to come out of the shadows at any moment and attack you.

No...it is right out in the open on Christian radio with many time wasting
sermons speculating and looking for an anti Christ instead of Jesus.

You definitely have problems with dispensationalism--very unhealthy ones. You see, I never mentioned one word about dispensationalism and already you are suspicious, and even accusing of having my theology shaped by dispensationalism when I simply interpret the Bible literally as I should be, and as it meant to be.

It affects most all your posts...you Rmac......Beamup has a double dose of the infection.
Others have been taught it and left it.
Others hold it until they learn a bit more, but they do not yet see what the scriptures point to as an alternative.

And if you were witnessing to a Jew today you could you use all the books as well. But the Jews of the OT and those of today still use just the OT. That is significant. It was a book written "for them and their understanding

."

When I speak with Jews ironically I use the same verses used to deprogram dispensationalists. From the Ot I show gentile inclusion in the promises.

I show from Jonah how Israel did not want gentiles included,,,,I show from Isa 40-66 gentiles flowing in .

I quoted to you Luke 24:27, as Jesus quoted passages from the OT to two Jewish believers. At that time it was a book written for the Jews. There was no NT.

lk 24 shows that the whole bible was about Jesus.....and is about Jesus now.

Then you should respect the facts that you just quoted from Paul.
This is an admission by you that the OT was a book written to Israel by the prophets of Israel. Now we are getting somewhere.

Sure...Israel was the earthly shadow of the heavenly reality.

Just remember that in Rom.9:1-5 and in Rom.10:1-5 Paul continues to pray for the salvation of this entire nation, Israel, unto whom these oracles and covenants were committed. Israel still existed then, as it does now.

He prayed for Israel the way I would pray for Roman Catholics.....:thumbsup:

The Church obviously did not replace it or did not become a continuation of it.

The Church is the reality of what Israel pointed to.
Israel in the OT had the root promises which have blossomed into the fruit of the NT. church.

It still exists today. Either that or Paul was a lunatic for praying for something that didn't exist.

Israel exists. She is not simply a shadow. The church is separate from Israel.

1 Corinthians 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
--Note, Paul delineates three groups of people in his day all existing side by side

.

You repeat this over and over and yet miss the point of it.

1] unsaved Jews

2] unsaved gentiles

3] saved church members ,both jew and gentile...

see...quite simple....jews had the word ,did not obey. Gentiles did not have the word yet had remnants of the moral law in the conscience but not enough to save them

The church is saved by word and Spirit....3 groups


The church did not replace or become a continuation of the Israel. That is plain error.

This was a prophecy of Jesus Christ, spoken of in the OT (Deuteronomy), that Stephen refers to. (It would be helpful if you would give the full reference from where you are quoting from.)

you know where it was.....acts 7 deut18

You are looking at a poor translation here, as you know very well there is no "church" in the wilderness

.

There was not a nt church in the ot....but there was an ot church an "assembly of God's people in seed form and type.

There are more than a few translations including Young's that give a different translation:
Acts 7:38 `This is he who was in the assembly in the wilderness, with the messenger who is speaking to him in the mount Sinai, and with our fathers who did receive the living oracles to give to us;
--The word ekklesia always means assembly, and that is what they were.
When they were in the wilderness did Israel ever Not assemble??

A called out assembly is a church.... just not exactly the same as the NT one

Stephen is giving the history of Israel. How does this help you any?
It doesn't. Actually it defeats your cause. This is not a history of the church; but of Israel. You can find the same history in the OT, which Stephen is quoting from--the canon of the Jews.

It helps because this outline shows how OT Israel failed, but Nt Israel will not fail.

 

[revmwc]

I agree he came to save the lost, did He do it in full or did he fail with some?



Jesus doesn't call all men to repentance, as it is written, " ...for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." (Matthew 9:13B). Those righteous he is not calling to repentance, it is those who are self righteous and do not believe they are sinners, like the Pharisee in Luke 18:11, " The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican". Why does one recognize they are sinners and in need of a savior? Because God has already given them a new heart.




Yes, let us look at Abraham's example. He was a child of God before he was justified by faith, wasn't he?



Was the prodigal not a son before he returned to his father, or did returning then make him a son?


Brother Joe

Just as in Matthew we see Jesus words in Luke 5:32 "I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

God is giving all the opportunity to repent, Christ came to call sinners to repentance. Were the Pharisees sinners? Were the Religious leaders sinners? Of course they were did they come to repentance?

So if Christ mission was to bring sinners to repentance back to your question did He fail?

No why because everyone is responsible for their own repentance, we see the standard has always been the same.

Whosoever believes that makes it a conscious choice always has been.

Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.

The choice in the O.T. was to call upon the the Lord and it was whosoever, salvation came by Grace through faith for them. Not because of their being born a Jew, not because they followed or couldn't follow the Law, whosoever called upon the Lord would be delivered.

Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Again a conscious choice.


Then we see Jesus made it real clear that it is the choice of the person not that God made an irresistible ability for man to call upon Him,

John 3:17-18,17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God

Do see it takes the person to believe God doesn't force them to believe. But because knew them in eternity past.

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"

Why did He chose us befroe the foundation of the world?

Romans 8:27-30,

27 "And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Notice HE searches the heart when according to Ephesians 1:4 He chose us before the foundation of the world why Romans says because He foreknew us.

Abraham was chosen not the day God called him out of UR but before the foundation of the world so too the prodigal. but Jesus too was chosen to be the propitiation for sin except as He says those who believe not are condemned already and why? Jesus said the unbeliever is not condemned by His sins but is condemned "because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
Very clear sin is not the issue except the sin of unbelief.

 

[Iconoclast]

revmwc

Very clear sin is not the issue except the sin of unbelief.

This falsehood speaks against the heart of the gospel.

Jesus saves us from our sins....all of them, even unbelief.

The unsaved are NOT saved from their sins, and they die in them.

 

[revmwc]

Wait a minute there. If Christ paid for the debts of everyone and everyone does not end up in heaven, then that is a faulty atonement/payment. I hear people say all the time that Christ has done all He is going to do, now we have to do our part. That is, at best, semi-Peligianism, and at worst, full blown Peligianism. Christ has done the redemptive work upon the cross, and this work blotted out the sins of the sheep. Yes, God saves His sheep one at a time in time, but the redemption made upon the cross covers all the sheep, both pre- and post-cross believers.

That is why Christ never paid the sin debt the goats have. They will have God's wrath poured out on them just as God did Christ while He hung on the cross.

If the lost have their sin debt paid by Christ, there is no wrath to be poured out upon them; their sins have been paid for.

Jesus made it real clear that it is the choice of the person not that God made an irresistible ability for man to call upon Him,

John 3:17-18,17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God

Those who call upon Christ are redeemed but O.T. and N.T. make it clear it is a conscious choice, Joel 2:32 says "whosoever shall call" does God force them to call upon Christ?
Acts 2:21 states "whosoever shall call" and Romans 10:13 "whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." the shall be redeemed, but the penalty for the sins they committed was propitiated, they just reject the one who made the payment and for that they are condemned already.

Do you see it takes the person to believe, God doesn't force them to believe. But because He knew them in eternity past.

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"

Why did He chose us before the foundation of the world?

Romans 8:27-30,

27 "And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Notice HE searches the heart when according to Ephesians 1:4 "He chose us before the foundation of the world" why, Romans says because He foreknew us. Knew us ahead of time. We see that with one disciple, John 1:48, "Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee."
Jesus was no where near the fig tree when He saw Nathanael but He knew His heart. But it goes further according to Paul in Ephesians 1:4, and Romans 8:29, He knew Nathanael in eternity past before the foundation ofthe world. What He wanted Nathanael to understand is that when Nathanael was in his private place of worship He was with him and knew him there.

Abraham was chosen not the day God called him out of UR but before the foundation of the world.
Jesus too was chosen to be the propitiation for sin before the foundation of the World. As He says those who believe not are condemned already why? Jesus said the unbeliever is not condemned by His sins but is condemned "because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
Very clear sin is not the issue except the sin of unbelief.

 

[Iconoclast]

revmwc;

Very clear sin is not the issue except the sin of unbelief.

Jesus came to save His people from their sins. What you post is a falsehood.

Jesus died for all the sins of His people, even the sin of unbelief.

Unbelievers die in their sins plural...all of their sins.

The wages of sin is death.

Hebrews 2 explains the extent of this salvation....It is the CHILDREN given by the Father to the Son....no more no less.

 

[revmwc]

revmwc




This falsehood speaks against the heart of the gospel.

Jesus saves us from our sins....all of them, even unbelief.

The unsaved are NOT saved from their sins, and they die in them.

John 3:18 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

So Jesus spoke an untruth and He saves those who are condemned already whether they believe or not because you say

ICON
Jesus saves us from our sins....all of them, even unbelief.

Jesus said "he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God" that is the sin of unbelief and is not forgiven. Why because that person refuses to believe on the only begotten son.

Jesus said,

Mark 3:28-29: 28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

That is denying the work of the Holy Spirit, those who die without having followed the leadership of the Holy Spirit in believing on Christ are not forgiven. The Holy Spirit brings conviction upon people but once they continually refuse to follow His convicting power and die without having turned to Christ they are condemned.

Christ made it real clear unbelief sends one to hell not sin. Because if sin did we would all be doomed because we all fall short of the glory of God and we all sin as believers we confess that sin. But if our sins sent us to hell then it would be as many Holiness churches teach every time we sin we would lose our salvation, but that isn't how it is because He that believeth is not condemned Jesus said. Sin is not the issue for salvation it is the Son and have you received Him or Rejected Him, have you believed or not believed that is what condemns you according to Jesus.

Very clear if you let the Spirit be your guide. Unbelief sends a person to the Lake of Fire.

 

[Iconoclast]

revmwc

So Jesus spoke an untruth

never , I would not even suggest such a thing.

and He saves those who are condemned already whether they believe or not because you say

Jesus said "he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God" that is the sin of unbelief and is not forgiven. Why because that person refuses to believe on the only begotten son.

What you do not understand is salvation ...what it is and what it is from.


Saving belief places us in saving union with Christ.

Unbelief is natural to natural men.....they perish in unbelief without hope and without Christ...They die in their sins because there is never a time where God's wrath has been turned away.

Jesus said,


That is denying the work of the Holy Spirit, those who die without having followed the leadership of the Holy Spirit in believing on Christ are not forgiven. The Holy Spirit brings conviction upon people but once they continually refuse to follow His convicting power and die without having turned to Christ they are condemned.

You do not understand the sin described as the blasphemy of the Spirit which occurred when Jesus was on earth .

Millions have perished "in their sins" before the incarnation, and even today....it is not a belief /unbelief question.....

It is a Covenant death issue...it is about the Children

 

[Van]

Folks, limited atonement is unbiblical and has no support in scripture. Christ died for the many, meaning everyone but Christ, and Christ died for all, meaning all mankind. Christ became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, meaning all mankind.

Yes Christ died for the church, but the church is part of all mankind, so Christ died both for the church and all mankind. Any other view must nullify verse after verse.

 

[revmwc]

revmwc




never , I would not even suggest such a thing.



What you do not understand is salvation ...what it is and what it is from.


Saving belief places us in saving union with Christ.

Unbelief is natural to natural men.....they perish in unbelief without hope and without Christ...They die in their sins because there is never a time where God's wrath has been turned away.






You do not understand the sin described as the blasphemy of the Spirit which occurred when Jesus was on earth .

Millions have perished "in their sins" before the incarnation, and even today....it is not a belief /unbelief question.....

It is a Covenant death issue...it is about the Children

O.T. salvation came according to Joel 2:32 says "whosoever shall call" that is they had to believe in the Savior who was coming. They were saved by Grace through Faith. They were saved from the penalty which was attached to sin, which is death.

Believers today still suffer from Physical death, so we are not currently saved from dying physically. We will be raised from physical death but so too will the unbeliever.
We are born spiritually dead and upon belief in the Lord Jesus we become alive Spiritually.

But what Death are we saved from?
What death did Jesus conquer?


Let's see if we can find it,

Revelation 2:10 "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death".
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 21:But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Seems we are saved from the second death, who are those who overcome and how do we overcome, by Believing on the Son, Jesus and calling upon the Lord.

John 3:18 "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1 John 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

We overcome by Faith and those who overcome are not touched by the second death. We are saved from spending eternity separated from God in the Lake of Fire. Who ends up in the Lake of Fire the unbelieving who are sinners that is true but what is their Crime? What sends them to the Lake of fire?

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

So was there name not written in the book of Life because of all the sins they committed or because they failed to overcome that is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ?

They failed to overcome they failed to believe, again we see

John 3:18b he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God

Very clear unbelief sends them to the Lake of fire. They die the second death which is eternal separation from God and we as Believers have overcome the world and overcome death that is the Second Death because of Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Rippon]

Folks,

You have no "folks" Van.

limited atonement is unbiblical and has no support in scripture.

Particular redemption is true and comforting doctrine found all over Scripture.

Christ died for the many, meaning everyone but Christ, and Christ died for all, meaning all mankind.

Many does not = all i.e. each and every. It means particular ones --the elect.

Christ became the propitiation or means of salvation

Propitiation does not =means of salvation.

Yes Christ died for the church, but the church is part of all mankind, so Christ died both for the church and all mankind.

Your view is absurd. The Church is indeed part of mankind; yet Christ did not die for each and every person in the past present and future --He laid down His life on behalf of His Bride --the Church --the elect.

Your reasoning is unreasonable. You have to come up with something more biblical.

Any other view must nullify verse after verse.

Your view is typical Arminianism.

 

[revmwc]

You have no "folks" Van.

Particular redemption is true and comforting doctrine found all over Scripture.

Many does not = all i.e. each and every. It means particular ones --the elect.

Christ became the propitiation or means of salvation

Propitiation does not =means of salvation.

Your view is absurd. The Church is indeed part of mankind; yet Christ did not die for each and every person in the past present and future --He laid down His life on behalf of His Bride --the Church --the elect.

Your reasoning is unreasonable. You have to come up with something more biblical.

Your view is typical Arminianism.

His view is also the view of John and Paul even Peter and lastly even Jesus.

Jesus told Nicodemus "whosoever believeth in Him (that is the Son)added for clarity shall not perish but have everlasting life." The whosoever is as John says in 1 John 2:2 Jesus became the propitiation for the whole world.

 

[Rippon]

His view is also the view of John and Paul even Peter and lastly even Jesus.

Van was dealing with particular atonement and propitiation.

John, Paul, Peter and Jesus were decidely not Arminian.

Jesus told Nicodemus "whosoever believeth in Him (that is the Son)added for clarity

Not "whosoever" but the believing ones.

The whosoever is as John says in 1 John 5:5 Jesus became the propitiation for the whole world.

Propitiation is not mentioned in 1 John 5:5.

 

[Van]

His view is also the view of John and Paul even Peter and lastly even Jesus.

Jesus told Nicodemus "whosoever believeth in Him (that is the Son)added for clarity shall not perish but have everlasting life." The whosoever is as John says in 1 John 2:2 Jesus became the propitiation for the whole world.

Thanks RevMWC, Mr Rippon views are detached from reality.

Folks, limited atonement is unbiblical and has no support in scripture. Christ died for the many, meaning everyone but Christ, and Christ died for all, meaning all mankind. Christ became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, meaning all mankind.

Hebrews 2:9 But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

Yes Christ died for the church, but the church is part of all mankind, so Christ died both for the church and all mankind. Any other view must nullify verse after verse.

 

[revmwc]

Van was dealing with particular atonement and propitiation.

John, Paul, Peter and Jesus were decidely not Arminian.

Not "whosoever" but the believing ones.

Propitiation is not mentioned in 1 John 5:5.

sorry meant 1 John 2:2

But John, Paul, Peter and Jesus taught unlimited atonement.

I am not Arminin but I also am not a hyper Calvanist.

Paul taught unlimited atonement and Predsetination because God foreknew us. I believe God foreknew those who would be saved and He foreknew it before the foundation of the world. I also believe that man is totally depraved.

We were called and elected because of Foreknowledge.

God's Grace is for all who believe but the convicting of the Holy Spirit can be resisted and rejected by the unbeliever.
I also believe once a person is saved they are always saved. therefore I align with neither the Arminian view nor the Hyper-Calvanist view, there is a middle ground and the Pastor I grew up under called it Pauline and Paul's teaching of Foreknowledge bringing election and Predestination.

Of course Calvin didn't teach the 5 points of the Hyper-Calvanist so he was not a hyper calvanist either.

 

[Rippon]

Thanks RevMWC, Mr Rippon [sic]views are detached from reality.

On the contrary; my views accord with the Word of God.

Folks,

Who are you addressing?

limited atonement is unbiblical and has no support in scripture.

You are being silly and redundant.

Christ became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, meaning all mankind.

Propitiation has no such definition. Find a Bible commentary that hints at your woeful lack of understanding.

Yes Christ died for the church, but the church is part of all mankind, so Christ died both for the church and all mankind. Any other view must nullify verse after verse.

You are repeating absurdities.

Christ died for the Church cannot mean He died for each and every.

What would be the point of saying He died for the Church if the real meaning is He died for everyone? Utter silliness.

"He died for the Church...and oh, everyone else." That is wacky.

I suppose in John 17:9 where Christ said He is praying for His own and specifically says "not for the world" you would want to disagree and claim Christ meant to say everyone.

 

[Van]

Yet another silly and redundant post from Mr. Rippon.

Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all (which includes the church).

Any other view is "wacky."

Folks, limited atonement is unbiblical and has no support in scripture. Christ died for the many, meaning everyone but Christ, and Christ died for all, meaning all mankind. Christ became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, meaning all mankind.

Hebrews 2:9 But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

Yes Christ died for the church, but the church is part of all mankind, so Christ died both for the church and all mankind. Any other view must nullify verse after verse.

 

[Rippon]

Van is on auto-pilot thinking that repeating his posts word-for-word actually has value.

 

[Iconoclast]

Van is on auto-pilot thinking that repeating his posts word-for-word actually has value.

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

[Iconoclast]

Van was dealing with particular atonement and propitiation.

John, Paul, Peter and Jesus were decidely not Arminian.

Not "whosoever" but the believing ones.

Propitiation is not mentioned in 1 John 5:5.

Notice they cannot address the Covenant children so they must b ounce all over the p look ace to avo I don't the clear teaching. ...The passage from Joel was quoted as fulfilled at Pentecost the Lord reigning from the Heavenly Zion and Jerusalem.