The Christian Party

[JonC]

Why do you seem to be stating that we cannot be both citizens of heaven and of America? Paul had no problem being a christian and a Roman citizen!

In a way. We are citizens of a secular nation (and under the government of that nation). But we are more so citizens of the Kingdom of God.

We do need to decide where our heart lies.

Paul was not a supporter of the Roman government, he did not teach participation in the secular government and he never encouraged Christians to influence Rome by holding office.

Paul used his Roman citizenship to take him to Rome for the work of the Kingdom.... not to morally change Rome.

 

[Iconoclast]

Pastor Murray Brett offered this;

"One Dimensional Critiques of Trump and 'Q'"
(Recovering a Biblically Robust Trinitarian Theology and Practice)

Beware of one dimensional critiques in laying blame at the feet of Trump and QAnon and Company. We as American Evangelicals and "Reformed Evangelicals" have made our contribution.
For the last 100 years American Evangelicals and for the last 25 years "Reformed Evangelicals" have reduced God and the gospel to little more than mercenary, self-serving interest, ie. forgiveness of sins and personal satisfaction that feeds self-love and narcissism.

The only way forward for the needed reformation is to keep Law and Gospel together indissolubly as God designed to reveal the Trinity, and to guide us into communion with the Trinity and one another.

Broad evangelicals and many "Reformed Evangelicals" have jettisoned the law and what's left is a kind of blind love, and that love is little more now than natural love that only has the power to love on the basis of conditions: you love me; I love you back; you do good to me; I do good back.


Its not widely understood that in justification, the legal demands of the law are satisfied by Christ, and the condemnation, judgment, and punishments for law-breaking are taken away, to free us to enjoy God as the Sovereign Lord and his holy will. The gospel of justifying grace is the freeing motive to love and enjoy God and the binding authority of the commands of God's law to honor him as the King who loves righteousness and hates lawlessness.
Understanding justification and making good use of it takes away our hostility against God as God, our hostility against his law, and even our hostility against one another. Without this biblical understanding of justification, we will always be at odds with one another as believers, divided, and our lives and witness diluted in the world.

At any point, where we despise God's law as the only moral and spiritual guide of the love of God and true communion with God and one another, the love of God loses its meaning and power to exalt God as our Sovereign Lord together. As David Wells said, "We've Lost Our Virtue" and we must recover virtue to serve God and serve one another. Without virtue, we serve self.
The deeper problem is that we have become theoretically Trinitarian, and hold some form of practical modalism in which we emphasize one member of the Trinity above the other as displayed in emphasizing either law or gospel. The diseased pathology of each separation and emphasis must be traced out.


Only by recovering a biblically robust Trinitarian theology and practice and the indissoluble role of law and gospel may we recover a gospel that actually brings in virtue, or everlasting righteousness (Dan. 9:24) that will make all nations glad with a Righteous Love that is good and equitable for everyone (Psa. 67:4). Seeking with you to keep law and gospel indissolubly together to enjoy Trinitarian, Christocentric communion with God and All his people, to make his name Great!

 

[ad finitum]

I have seen several ti.es (at least three times on this board) the GOP being described as Christian.

As a Christian I view this as very problematic (to the point it is an anti-Christian view).

When I ask those who have made the claim to defend the statement I am met with silence, I assume because it is an indefensible comment.

But I will ask here -

What is Christian about the GOP?

A few thoughts come to mind:

What do the epistles say about political movements involving Christians? One may search in vain. Now there is no law against a Christian participating in politics to the extent that government's allow or even encourage but political movements and entities are not made "Christian" by some percentage of their membership or even by the promotion of specific policies.

Politics are concerned with the governments of this earth -- wholly owned subsidiaries of the current ruler of this world. Infecting such governments with Christians doesn't make these government's "Christian" nor any sub-entity of them. Jesus rejected political governance over these kingdoms when they were offered to Him by Satan, who still owns them while he yet remains this side of the bottomless pit.

The only polity that could be considered Christian is the one involving the Christian's Heavenly citizenship and the potentials of ruling with the King of kings and Lord of lords in epochs yet to come.

The epistles define what the Christian is to be about in his daily life and what fruits are to be produced in this world. It is the composition of these things that build the life work of the Christian. It is that work which will be evaluated. Participation in political endeavors will be evaluated to the extent it produces those fruits described in the Epistles. Nothing else counts for anything.

It seems safe to conclude that no earthly political entity can become "Christian" by any means. The only thing that is truly "Christian" is the relationship between man and God through Jesus Christ and the production of Biblical fruit therefrom.

If a Christian desires to influence his government, he will better spend his zeal and energy in living the life prescribed for him in the epistles. If 75 million Americans would make that their priority, the impact upon the society from that alone would be such that the nation would never want for wise rule, without so much as casting a vote.

 

[JonC]

A few thoughts come to mind:

What do the epistles say about political movements involving Christians? One may search in vain. Now there is no law against a Christian participating in politics to the extent that government's allow or even encourage but political movements and entities are not made "Christian" by some percentage of their membership or even by the promotion of specific policies.

Politics are concerned with the governments of this earth -- wholly owned subsidiaries of the current ruler of this world. Infecting such governments with Christians doesn't make these government's "Christian" nor any sub-entity of them. Jesus rejected political governance over these kingdoms when they were offered to Him by Satan, who still owns them while he yet remains this side of the bottomless pit.

The only polity that could be considered Christian is the one involving the Christian's Heavenly citizenship and the potentials of ruling with the King of kings and Lord of lords in epochs yet to come.

The epistles define what the Christian is to be about in his daily life and what fruits are to be produced in this world. It is the composition of these things that build the life work of the Christian. It is that work which will be evaluated. Participation in political endeavors will be evaluated to the extent it produces those fruits described in the Epistles. Nothing else counts for anything.

It seems safe to conclude that no earthly political entity can become "Christian" by any means. The only thing that is truly "Christian" is the relationship between man and God through Jesus Christ and the production of Biblical fruit therefrom.

If a Christian desires to influence his government, he will better spend his zeal and energy in living the life prescribed for him in the epistles. If 75 million Americans would make that their priority, the impact upon the society from that alone would be such that the nation would never want for wise rule, without so much as casting a vote.

Scripture does say much about political movements. Some are arguments from silence, granted, but Christ and the Apostles did not engage political forces. Instead they referred to them in lump as "the World".

The question is whether Christians are called out from the World or are called to be a part of both systems. The NT Church believed the former while most today the latter.

 

[Quantrill]

In a way. We are citizens of a secular nation (and under the government of that nation). But we are more so citizens of the Kingdom of God.

We do need to decide where our heart lies.

Paul was not a supporter of the Roman government, he did not teach participation in the secular government and he never encouraged Christians to influence Rome by holding office.

Paul used his Roman citizenship to take him to Rome for the work of the Kingdom.... not to morally change Rome.

Though Paul was a Roman citizen his loyalty was to Israel. And even though Israel was under the judgement of God, Paul remained loyal, to a fault, to Israel. (Acts 20:22-23) (21:4) (21:12) (21:23-26) (Rom. 9:1-3)

And, Paul didn't use his Roman citizenship to take him to Rome for the Kingdom of God. He used it to saves his hide. (Acts 22:25) (25:9-10)

Just because one is a Christian and is involved in politics or government doesn't mean his heart is in the wrong place. You err here.

Quantrill

 

[ad finitum]

Scripture does say much about political movements. Some are arguments from silence, granted, but Christ and the Apostles did not engage political forces. Instead they referred to them in lump as "the World".

The question is whether Christians are called out from the World or are called to be a part of both systems. The NT Church believed the former while most today the latter.

Your post frames the issue perfectly.

Consider the founding of our country by men of faith who sought to create something that would not be a pestilence to the people. They sought to put limits on power and created obstacles to the concentration of it in the hands of a few (or of one). Why? To create a tangle and a hedge, ultimately against the power of the Adversary who has suzerainty over all nations.

And from the very start of our United States, the first president found his service in that office to be a terrible affliction, as did all men who sought to be righteous in their service to the public. Any righteous man elected or appointed to offices in the government finds it to be so. If any make that service a career, they are more likely to become corrupted because governments of the earth are the Devil's prefecture. Except for the fact that governments are ordained to exist in the plan of God, one might as well seek to serve honorably in a red light district.

 

[xlsdraw]

What this nation became, more than anything Christianity-wise, has been a sanctuary where we could worship freely. The movement is currently towards altering that status.

 

[SGO]

All I hear applauded is that we live in Christ in another dimension.
Don't unite yourself to "this world".
Love the world is to be an enemy of God. (James 4:4)
To act in the world does not necessarily equate to love the world.
Are we not to influence where we have opportunity?

As we therefore have opportunity,
let us do good unto all men,
especially unto them who are of the household of faith.
Galatians 6:10

 

[JonC]

All I hear applauded is that we live in Christ in another dimension.
Don't unite yourself to "this world".
Love the world is to be an enemy of God. (James 4:4)
To act in the world does not necessarily equate to love the world.
Are we not to influence where we have opportunity?

As we therefore have opportunity,
let us do good unto all men,
especially unto them who are of the household of faith.
Galatians 6:10

I agree. BUT how we act in this world, and who or Whom we represent is important.

I believe Christians should stand for Christ, which mean not only voicing opposition to abortion but also reaching out to those who would consider abortion to be an option.
Christians should stand for Christ, which means caring for the sick and the poor.

But our stand should be for Christ and in Him - not politics. When we become entangled with politics we isolate (in the US) a vast number of lost people who we are trying to reach with the gospel by yoking ourselves to the World and to a political entity that is by definition opposed to God.

What I am saying is that I hold the same Christian values and concerns that you hold. Where you may look to a political party (either the GOP, DNC, Green Party, Libertarian Party, or whatever) to lend your voice, I believe the Church is the best entity.

 

[SGO]

Can the Church act directly to slow abortion for those who do not wish to participate in the Church?
Would stopping an abortion be considered a "good" work if the mother was not of the faith?
The verse says when you have opportunity do good to all men.
If you can do "good" through a party why not?
Oh, a Christian should announce it every time they do something good, is that it?
God for sure would get the glory.

 

[Salty]

Be nice if we could stop this murder by legislation - but what we need is to change the heart.

 

[Quantrill]

I agree. BUT how we act in this world, and who or Whom we represent is important.

I believe Christians should stand for Christ, which mean not only voicing opposition to abortion but also reaching out to those who would consider abortion to be an option.
Christians should stand for Christ, which means caring for the sick and the poor.

But our stand should be for Christ and in Him - not politics. When we become entangled with politics we isolate (in the US) a vast number of lost people who we are trying to reach with the gospel by yoking ourselves to the World and to a political entity that is by definition opposed to God.

What I am saying is that I hold the same Christian values and concerns that you hold. Where you may look to a political party (either the GOP, DNC, Green Party, Libertarian Party, or whatever) to lend your voice, I believe the Church is the best entity.

How silly. One can stand for Christ, voice opposition to abortion, reach out to those who consider abortion an option, care for the sick and the poor, and be involved in politics. In fact, they are in a position to do more in those areas.

What you are saying makes no sense. Just because a Christian is involved in politics doesn't mean they place politics over Christ. Ridiculous.

All you're doing is trying to discourage Christians from voting and being involved in politics. And the atheisitc democrats would love for this to occur.

You are in error in this.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Your post frames the issue perfectly.

Consider the founding of our country by men of faith who sought to create something that would not be a pestilence to the people. They sought to put limits on power and created obstacles to the concentration of it in the hands of a few (or of one). Why? To create a tangle and a hedge, ultimately against the power of the Adversary who has suzerainty over all nations.

And from the very start of our United States, the first president found his service in that office to be a terrible affliction, as did all men who sought to be righteous in their service to the public. Any righteous man elected or appointed to offices in the government finds it to be so. If any make that service a career, they are more likely to become corrupted because governments of the earth are the Devil's prefecture. Except for the fact that governments are ordained to exist in the plan of God, one might as well seek to serve honorably in a red light district.

There is no job one takes on this earth that you can't say you may as well serve in a red light district. Being involved in politics is not dishonorable. How one maintains himself in that office determines that. Just as it does with any other job.

Quantrill

 

[ad finitum]

Be nice if we could stop this murder by legislation - but what we need is to change the heart.

Well said.

A country full of Christians has tolerated this and much more for many decades now. Christians themselves participate in it. I know some who have had abortions when they should have known better.

Of the 75 million that didn't vote for the current chief executive, what percentage of them lived together or otherwise shopped around (in an intimate sense) before marriage? Or maybe they are still not married but are living together or are shopping in this way? How many are regular consumers of pornography? How many laugh at, or otherwise tolerate, smutty TV series and "reality" shows that flaunt all manner of sexual immorality? How many Christians imbibe this corrosive drip? How many don't even realize its a problem?

They go to church and enjoy the stage band. They raise their hands in praise while their eardrums are suffering permanent damage. "It's all good. God is near."

I know a pastor of a house church. He makes ends meet by cleaning carpets. He was in a home that belonged to two youth pastors, one male, one female, from one of the very well-attended local churches. The two were living together. in their house were pornographic publications and videos scattered around the various coffee tables.

When the couple discovered that the carpet cleaner was a pastor, the asked him whether he thought it was God's will that they get married.

With that picture in your mind, go and watch any youtube video featuring the song, "Hear Us From Heaven".

What percentage of the 75 million non-Democrat demographic are composed of people just like them? God knows. The Devil would be glad to call them a Christian Party.

 

[ad finitum]

There is no job one takes on this earth that you can't say you may as well serve in a red light district.

What of Adam tilling the soil with the sweat of his face? Is that like being forced to work among the denizens of the red light district? Are there exactly as many enticements and opportunities to for temptation when one is working on the farm?

This new learning amazes me.

Being involved in politics is not dishonorable. How one maintains himself in that office determines that. Just as it does with any other job.

Quantrill

That's interesting. Where there is great power and influence and money, there is absolutely no extra temptation at all than if one is selling tickets to the ball game.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

What this nation became, more than anything Christianity-wise, has been a sanctuary where we could worship freely. The movement is currently towards altering that status.

How so?

 

[Yeshua1]

Is there a scripture for that?

Yes, its called the Fall of Adam!

 

[Yeshua1]

As Christ yes... as a politician, no.

So we cannot be as the Founders intended us to be, eh?

 

[Yeshua1]

In a way. We are citizens of a secular nation (and under the government of that nation). But we are more so citizens of the Kingdom of God.

We do need to decide where our heart lies.

Paul was not a supporter of the Roman government, he did not teach participation in the secular government and he never encouraged Christians to influence Rome by holding office.

Paul used his Roman citizenship to take him to Rome for the work of the Kingdom.... not to morally change Rome.

Yes or not, Christians were wrong to get involved in politics to end slavery?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

So we cannot be as the Founders intended us to be, eh?

Who are the Founders? Do you mean Jesus?