The church in the OT

[Yeshua1]

The danger with saying that the Church started with Abraham is that Abraham was commanded to put the covenant sign on his infant son. It seems like this is a rather Presbyterian argument.
There is only one people of God, drawn from both old and new covenants, but those people only began to meet together as believers after Pentecost. The huge majority of Israelites were unregenerate (c.f. 1 Kings 19:18; Isaiah 1:9).
I believe in a universal Church that starts with Adam (2nd London Confession XXVI: 1-2), but the local church starts at Pentecost.

Correct answer, as there is but One Body of believers, but what we call as the Church started at Pentacost!

 

[Yeshua1]

17th Century Particular Baptists did believe in an invisible church:

26.1 The catholic or universal church, which (with respect to the internal work of the Spirit and truth of grace) may be called invisible, consists of the whole number of the elect, that have been, are, or shall be gathered into one, under Christ, the head thereof; and is the spouse, the body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

The also believed in the necessity of the local (or visible) church:

26.5 In the execution of this power wherewith he is so intrusted, the Lord Jesus calleth out of the world unto himself, through the ministry of his word, by his Spirit, those that are given unto him by his Father, that they may walk before him in all the ways of obedience, which he prescribeth to them in his word. Those thus called, he commandeth to walk together in particular societies, or churches, for their mutual edification, and the due performance of that public worship, which he requireth of them in the world.

...and that the local church is to be constituted of professed believers:

26.6 The members of these churches are saints by calling, visibly manifesting and evidencing (in and by their profession and walking) their obedience unto that call of Christ; and do willingly consent to walk together, according to the appointment of Christ; giving up themselves to the Lord, and one to another, by the will of God, in professed subjection to the ordinances of the Gospel.

In the minds of Particular Baptists, the invisible church is simply the sum total of all believers throughout human history. It is nothingness than the whole body of Christ, from the first believer to the last.

I weigh in on this because Particular (Reformed) Baptists are sometimes accused of advocating an authority other than the local church. That is patently untrue.

Martin has the right answer, as there is but one Body of Believers, One true Church, but Church proper started at Pentacost!

 

[HankD]

In eternity, there is one New Jerusalem which Abraham looked for, the gates and foundations of which are represented by the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles of the Lamb.

 

[Reformed]

I'm not sure of the relevance of this post, or what you want me to know or answer. The OP and Covenanter's later post make this specifically about the local church, not the "universal" church.

You know what? I do not even know why I posted that. LOL I was thinking of something and just went with it. I get that way sometimes.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

the OT saved were included into the Body of Christ, the Church, but the Church itself started up on Pentacost!

I do not hold to a Pentecost birthday of the Church. I believe the church began with Jesus and His disciples. Jesus established the Church during His earthly ministry; the church was empowered at Pentecost, IMO.

 

[HankD]

I do not hold to a Pentecost birthday of the Church. I believe the church began with Jesus and His disciples. Jesus established the Church during His earthly ministry; the church was empowered at Pentecost, IMO.

I like to see it as a ship, Jesus was/is the engineer, the apostles and disciples the crew, Pentecost the maiden voyage.

 

[Yeshua1]

I do not hold to a Pentecost birthday of the Church. I believe the church began with Jesus and His disciples. Jesus established the Church during His earthly ministry; the church was empowered at Pentecost, IMO.

The Holy Spirit came though in His Baptizing us into the Body of Christ at Pentecost, as he could not come yet to do that and establish the Church on earth until Jesus death and resurrection and ascension!

 

[John of Japan]

You know what? I do not even know why I posted that. LOL I was thinking of something and just went with it. I get that way sometimes.

Okey dokey.

 

[loDebar]

The nation of Hebrews, a called out assembly out of Egypt is a type of the Church.
Egypt is a type of the sinful world and Passover is the way to the Promised Land or the Christian Life

 

[The Biblicist]

There is absolutely nothing to support a Pentecost origin of the church of Christ. 3000 cannot be "added" to something that has no prior existence. Those assembled in one place in Acts 2:1 are the very ones that had been assembling in the previous chapter. The apostolic office was "first" added to the church by God and that occurred very early in the ministry of Christ. Again, you cannot "add" to something that does not already exists. In Acts 1 there is an assembly of 120 who are gathered to fill a vacant church office.

Dr. Stanley Anderson gives 27 reasons to support a pre-Pentecost origin of the church

1. Christian believers before Pentecost had the gospel (Matt. 4:23;
Mark 1:1; Matt. 9:35; 11:5; 24:14; 26:13; Mark 1:14, 15; 8:35;
10:29; 13:10; 16:9, 15; Luke 4:18; 9:6; 20:1; etc.).

2. They were converted (Matt. 3:5-8; 18:3; Luke 19:1-10).

3. They were baptized after conversion (Matt. 3:6; Acts 1:22).

4. They had Christ as their Head (Matt. 23:8; Mark 1:1; John 1:29).

5. They were instructed in church truths (Matt. 18:15-20).

6. They were called to obey Christ (Matt. 4:18-20).

7. They were ordained (Matt. 10:1-5; John 15:16).

8. They were commissioned (Matt. 28:18-20).

9. They were organized enough for their needs (Jon 13:29).

10. They had a missionary program (Matt. 10:1-11:1).

11. They had a teaching program (Matt. 4:23; 10:1-42).

12. They had a healing program (Matt. 10:1; Luke 9:1; 10:9).

13. They were promised a permanent church (Matt. 16:18).

14. They had church discipline (Matt. 18:15-17).

15. They had divine authority (Matt. 18:18; 28:18-20).

16. They had essentials of church life (Matt. 4:19; 18:20).

17. They had true church democracy (Matt.23:8-12).

18. They had qualified pastors (John 15:16; 21:15-17).

19. They had the Lord’s Supper (Matt. 26:26-28).

20. They had the Holy Spirit (Luke 11:13; John 20:22).

21. They had divine power to do Christ’s work (Like 9:1).

22. They sang “in the midst of the church” (Matt. 26:30; Heb. 2:12).

23. They had a prayer meeting (Acts 1:14).

24. They had business meetings (Acts 1:15-26).

25. They had a membership roll (Matt. 10:2-4; Acts 1:13-15).

26. They were united and “added unto” (Acts 2:1, 41).

27. Christ was their corner stone (Matt. 16:18; Eph. 2:20).” – S.E.
Anderson, The First Church. [Little Rock, AK; The Challenge
Press, 1972] pp. 8-9

 

[Dave G]

3000 cannot be "added" to something that has no prior existence. Those assembled in one place in Acts 2:1 are the very ones that had been assembling in the previous chapter. The apostolic office was "first" added to the church by God and that occurred very early in the ministry of Christ. Again, you cannot "add" to something that does not already exists.

I have to agree with much of that.

" He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ." ( Matthew 16:15-20 )

When did He start building it?

Thus far, it appears to me as if it was during His first coming.
He built it upon Himself, the chief cornerstone, and then added the apostles.

Then:

"And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
47 praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved." ( Acts of the Apostles 2:46-47 )



Now I'm going to throw a wrench into it :

"Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 that at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 but now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us];
15 having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;
16 and that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 and came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 for through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone];
21 in whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 in whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit." ( Ephesians 2:11-22 )

There's the "church"...the lively stones, a spiritual building with its foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ as the chief corner stone.
A building made up of both Jews and Gentiles.


Look at verse 20..."apostles and prophets".
Old Testament prophets?

If so, then it goes a bit father back, doesn't it?
Personally, I think it started with Abel ( Hebrews 11 ).

" Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and [some] of them they shall slay and persecute:
50 that the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
51 from the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation." ( Luke 11:49-51 )

It looks to me as if Abel was a prophet, and he was the first "stone" laid in the foundation.

 

[The Biblicist]

Look at verse 20..."apostles and prophets".
Old Testament prophets?

If so, then it goes a bit father back, doesn't it?
Personally, I think it started with Abel ( Hebrews 11 ).

" Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and [some] of them they shall slay and persecute:
50 that the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
51 from the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation." ( Luke 11:49-51 )

Look at the order in Ephesians 2. He does not say "prophets and apostles" (as in Luke, another context that deals with OT prophets that preceded NT apostles) yet that would be the order if he were referring to OT prophets. But he says "apostles" FIRST just as he does in 1 Cor. 13:28 "apostles FIRST, then prophets SECONDARILY.." This is his order in Ephesians and is proven by Ephesians 3:5

Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Ephesians 3:1-5 is a continuation. Paul again reinforces this order in Ephesians 4:11

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Moreover, there is much more that needs clarification in Ephesians 2:11-21 which will shed light on its proper understanding. In particular, how Ephesians 2:9-10 is a transition verse between quickening which is an internal creative work of God and "good works" which follows consequentially. This transition in Ephesians 2 unto the Gentiles and their relationship to "good works" as amplified by the phrase "middle wall of partition" in the former house of God is not about salvation but about public worship in the house of God and needs to be understood in the context of God's house. Formerly, the Old Testament "house of God" = temple had a "middle wall of partition" that was merely the beginning point of divisions within the former house of God when it came to public worship and service unto God (works). Moreover, there was a division between the Jewish men and women (court of the women vs. court of the men). That led to another significant division (Levite Priests court = holy place - vs. the court where only the high priest could enter once a year - holy of holies). In short, the former "house of God" was a highly divided separated place of divine worship and service - there were multiple bodies of people separated from one another (Gentiles from Jews; men from women; Levites from High Priest). However, Salvation was no different for Gentiles from Jews prior to the cross. Only public worship (house of God). However, the new "house of God" or "temple" removes all divisions from public worship so that it is "one body" that worships cohesively together in one place.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Whether the Church begins with the first Lord's Supper, the first prayer meeting or with the coming of the Holy Spirit in a new way at Pentecost is not something I would go to the stake for.
The reason I tend to go for Pentecost is that it is when the promise of the Spirit is fulfilled and all the believers are Spirit-filled. There is certainly a church formed at Pentecost; whether there was one before then is not something I can get worked up about.

 

[loDebar]

We just claim Pentecost as the origin because that is when the work of the Holy Spirit is distributed worldwide.

True believers ,throughout the OT , were a type of the church, We see the authority of a fellowship of believers granted at Pentecost as the church

 

[Reformed]

Whether the Church begins with the first Lord's Supper, the first prayer meeting or with the coming of the Holy Spirit in a new way at Pentecost is not something I would go to the stake for.
The reason I tend to go for Pentecost is that it is when the promise of the Spirit is fulfilled and all the believers are Spirit-filled. There is certainly a church formed at Pentecost; whether there was one before then is not something I can get worked up about.

It was at Pentecost that the leaders of the Church were confirmed in the presence of all. It is a strong picture of an inauguration or commencement, so I stand on the side of most Protestant theologians that see Pentecost as the genesis of the New Testament church.

 

[Covenanter]

This is not a Baptistic view of the local church. Note all of the things a local Baptist church has or does nowadays (Biblically) that no OT assembly ever had:

1. Jesus as the head of the church, His body
2. Baptism as a testimony of belief
3. The Lord's Supper (not the Passover)
4. The Great Commission
5. Two offices: pastor and deacon
6. Missionaries/apostles
7. Meetings on Sunday
8. The NT to guide it
9. Church discipline as per Matt. 18
10. Etc., etc.

True, but you are describing the organisation of an independent baptist church. Jesus has always been the head of his redeemed people. I'm concerned with the ekkelsia of Malachi 3:

16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name. 17 And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him. 18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.​

Other contributors have been concerned with the theology of the church.

I am concerned with the local ekklesia - gatherings of believers in families for fellowship, worship, Scripture reading, prayer & singing. Things that NT assemblies share with OT assemblies.

What is evident is that the one NT reference to the OT church is unhelpful -

Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us: 39 to whom our fathers would not obey, ...​

But note the previous verse -

37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. 38 This is he,​

And note the frequently repeated Covenant relationship throughout Scripture -

Lev. 26:12 And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people.​

 

[The Biblicist]

Saints were "filled" with the Spirit prior to Pentecost. John the Baptist was "filled" with the Spirit from his mother's womb. Anna was filled with the Spirit. Saints were indwelt by the Spirit prior to Pentecost, indeed, one cannot be claimed by God as one of his "saints" if they are not indwelt (Rom. 9:6-7). Indwelling is inseparable and consequential to spiritual union. Spiritual union is the ONLY possible remedy to spiritual separation - death - which occurred "in the day" Adam ate of the forbidden fruit. There has only been two kinds of human beings since the fall in Genesis 3 - those "in Adam" born "of the flesh" thus "in the flesh" and those "in Christ" born "of the Spirit" and thus "in the Spirit." There is only one problem and that is spiritual separation from God = death spiritual which leads to death physical (all humanity suffers from this problem) and there is but one solution to that problem = spiritual union. There are no human beings neither "in Adam" or "in Christ" and "ALL in Adam die" and only those "in Christ" are made alive by new birth.

The baptism in the Spirit on the day of Pentecost has NOTHING to do with the individual, or the individual's relationship to God with regard to his spiritual relationship - NOTHING! It is an Old Testament act by God that occurred once after the "house of God" (tabernacle, temple, church) had been completed by a chosen builder and signified it as the appointed PUBLIC place of worship where the ordinances are properly administered, by a qualified appointed ministry. That is why the NT ekklesia ALWAYS is assembled together "in one place" (Acts 2:1; 1 Cor. 11:17,18,20, etc.). In contexts where no geographical place is asserted it is being used in the instructive sense or as an abstract institutional sense.

Those baptized in the Spirit on the day of Pentecost were only previous WATER BAPTIZED believers (Acts 1:4-5) or the New Testament ekklesia.

Being "head" of a family and being "head' of a body are two completely different things. The first deals with relationship by birth while the second deals with relationship by authority. The Scriptures clearly distinguish between the "family" of God and the "church" of God in many, many different ways.

No church of any kind was formed on the day of Pentecost by the Spirit or by the Father. Jesus is the founder of the Church, not the Spirit and he founded it in his personal ministry on earth long before Pentecost.

 

[John of Japan]

True, but you are describing the organisation of an independent baptist church.

No, I'm not. Look again. I described all Baptistic churches. Do you not believe that the Baptistic model is the Biblical model? Furthermore, can you name me one single thing in my list that is not straight from the Bible, that somehow is an independent Baptist thing but not Biblical?

Jesus has always been the head of his redeemed people.
I'm concerned with the ekkelsia of Malachi 3:

16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name. 17 And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him. 18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.​

Other contributors have been concerned with the theology of the church.

You've lost me. How do you see some kind of assembly in this passage?

I am concerned with the local ekklesia - gatherings of believers in families for fellowship, worship, Scripture reading, prayer & singing. Things that NT assemblies share with OT assemblies.

Where do you find all of these at one time in any OT assembly? And if you find it, I challenge you to show that the term ekklesia applies, in particular in the LXX.

The word "assembly" is a very general word. It simply means a gathering of humans. However, the word ekklesia is more particular.

What is evident is that the one NT reference to the OT church is unhelpful -

Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us: 39 to whom our fathers would not obey, ...​

But note the previous verse -

37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. 38 This is he,​

Sorry, I don't get it. First you say that v. 38 doesn't apply to the church, but then are you saying that v. 37 does apply? How does that work?

And note the frequently repeated Covenant relationship throughout Scripture -

Lev. 26:12 And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people.​

Application? I could say that this represents all of Israel even without some kind of assembly. So how is this passage somehow referring to a local assembly?

 

[Yeshua1]

No, I'm not. Look again. I described all Baptistic churches. Do you not believe that the Baptistic model is the Biblical model? Furthermore, can you name me one single thing in my list that is not straight from the Bible, that somehow is an independent Baptist thing but not Biblical?


You've lost me. How do you see some kind of assembly in this passage?

Where do you find all of these at one time in any OT assembly? And if you find it, I challenge you to show that the term ekklesia applies, in particular in the LXX.

The word "assembly" is a very general word. It simply means a gathering of humans. However, the word ekklesia is more particular.

Sorry, I don't get it. First you say that v. 38 doesn't apply to the church, but then are you saying that v. 37 does apply? How does that work?


Application? I could say that this represents all of Israel even without some kind of assembly. So how is this passage somehow referring to a local assembly?

The church may have been prefigured in the OT, but the actual church itself established here on Earth took the coming of Jesus and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost!

 

[Dave G]

Whether the Church begins with the first Lord's Supper, the first prayer meeting or with the coming of the Holy Spirit in a new way at Pentecost is not something I would go to the stake for.

Well, since you put it that way...
I think I can definitely agree with that.