The Church Not a Mystery

[freeatlast]

As stated in the OP it is a bedrock doctrine of Classic Dispensationalism that the Church was not revealed in prophecy at all!

That belief is totally inconsistent with Scripture posted in the OP which references Old Testament prophecy by Amos and Hosea and shows their fulfillment in the New Testament. The Apostle Peter expands on those prophecies shortly after Pentecost, following the healing of a crippled man.

Acts 3:12-26
12. And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?
13. The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.
14. But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
15. And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
16. And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
17. And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.
18. But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
19. Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20. And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21. Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
22. For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
24. Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
25. Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26. Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Please note in verse 24 what Peter says: Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

Peter says that that all the prophets from Samuel announced the events of Pentecost, which some dispensationalists concede was the beginning of the Church.

Let me ask you a question. If the church was not a mystery then can you give me any non biblical writer before the church age that wrote about the church? If not then why did't anyone know about the church if it was not a mystery?

 

[AresMan]

As stated in the OP it is a bedrock doctrine of Classic Dispensationalism that the Church was not revealed in prophecy at all!

That belief is totally inconsistent with Scripture posted in the OP which references Old Testament prophecy by Amos and Hosea and shows their fulfillment in the New Testament. The Apostle Peter expands on those prophecies shortly after Pentecost, following the healing of a crippled man.

Acts 3:12-26
12. And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?
13. The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.
14. But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
15. And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
16. And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
17. And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.
18. But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
19. Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20. And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21. Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
22. For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
24. Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
25. Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26. Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Please note in verse 24 what Peter says: Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

Peter says that that all the prophets from Samuel announced the events of Pentecost, which some dispensationalists concede was the beginning of the Church.

Which is one reason hyperdospensationalists move the start of the Body of Christ forward.

 

[OldRegular]

Let me ask you a question. If the church was not a mystery then can you give me any non biblical writer before the church age that wrote about the church? If not then why did't anyone know about the church if it was not a mystery?

What non Biblical writer wrote about the God of Scripture before the Incarnation.

That being said I don't get my information about God and His Church from non Biblical writers. I get all I need from the Bible. Perhaps your problem is you are believing non Biblical writers. One thing is certain you are denying Scripture!

 

[convicted1]

The Church was God's plan before He made this world, and Christ completed this at the cross. Even in the OT, there was the church, God's remnant, the ecclesia, the called out assembly.

 

[Iconoclast]

The Church was God's plan before He made this world, and Christ completed this at the cross. Even in the OT, there was the church, God's remnant, the ecclesia, the called out assembly.

:thumbsup::applause::thumbsup:

 

[percho]

As stated in the OP it is a bedrock doctrine of Classic Dispensationalism that the Church was not revealed in prophecy at all!

That belief is totally inconsistent with Scripture posted in the OP which references Old Testament prophecy by Amos and Hosea and shows their fulfillment in the New Testament. The Apostle Peter expands on those prophecies shortly after Pentecost, following the healing of a crippled man.

Acts 3:12-26
12. And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?
13. The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.
14. But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
15. And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
16. And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
17. And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.
18. But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
19. Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20. And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21. Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
22. For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
24. Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
25. Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26. Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Please note in verse 24 what Peter says: Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

Peter says that that all the prophets from Samuel announced the events of Pentecost, which some dispensationalists concede was the beginning of the Church.

Please write a short or long commentary on Hosea 1:3-11 concerning who is being spoken of what is being spoken of when events would take place being spoken of, keeping in mind say Jeremiah 3:8. Or any other passages you deem relative. I know Paul quotes some from Hosea.

Were both houses given a bill of divorce? If so, when? Scripture please. If not, why not?


Does the book of Hosea concern reconciliation? If so, in what concept?

While you are at it please address 1 Cor. 10:1. Were those the fathers of the Corinthians who were baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea?

For sure that will be spiritualized away.

 

[freeatlast]

What non Biblical writer wrote about the God of Scripture before the Incarnation.

That being said I don't get my information about God and His Church from non Biblical writers. I get all I need from the Bible. Perhaps your problem is you are believing non Biblical writers. One thing is certain you are denying Scripture!

By non biblical I simply meant someone who was a follower and spoke about it. There is nothing revealed anyplace about the church that was discovered or understood until the church was revealed. That makes it a mystery. No teacher or biblical student EVER spoke of the church age prior to the coming of the church. That makes it a mystery. You are denying truth. The church WAS a mystery and even remains today as such for the unconverted Jew. You are in denial my friend.

 

[AresMan]

Please write a short or long commentary on Hosea 1:3-11 concerning who is being spoken of what is being spoken of when events would take place being spoken of, keeping in mind say Jeremiah 3:8. Or any other passages you deem relative. I know Paul quotes some from Hosea.

Were both houses given a bill of divorce? If so, when? Scripture please. If not, why not?

The divided kingdom of Israel was taken captive to Assyria first. Judah was taken to Babylon later. A remnant returned from Persia, I believe, beginning the fulfillment of Jeremiah 3:14-15,18.
Even under Roman bondage, the houses of Judah and Israel were united. However, the remnant of faithful Jews expanded through the apostolic ministry, encompassing people of all nations (Gal 4:25-27 c.f. Jer 3:16-17).

Does the book of Hosea concern reconciliation? If so, in what concept?

The reconciliation of the remnant of faithful Jews from captivity with God to be sealed with the New Covenant and the expansion of God's people to "all nations."

While you are at it please address 1 Cor. 10:1. Were those the fathers of the Corinthians who were baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea?

For sure that will be spiritualized away.

Yes, they were the fathers of the Corinthians in the same way that Abraham is the father of the Gentile believers through faith. Why is this a problem? You may even call the people who founded the USA as "our founding fathers" even though you may be a later immigrant and not have any of them as physical ancestors.

Paul is assuring the Corinthians that their faith and practice they received from him is not some new cult out of sorts because "our fathers" were baptized unto Moses and we are baptized. They ate and drank of Christ (the manna and water) just as we eat and drink of Christ (the bread and wine - 1Co 10:16-22; 11:17-34). Then, Paul admonishes them not to fall into the temptations into which many of "our fathers" fell.

Have I "spiritualized" too much?

 

[thomas15]

The Church was God's plan before He made this world, and Christ completed this at the cross. Even in the OT, there was the church, God's remnant, the ecclesia, the called out assembly.

So basically you are saying that Paul was in error when he penned Eph. ch 3. (NKJV). Not trying to put words in your mouth.

 

[freeatlast]

The Church was God's plan before He made this world, and Christ completed this at the cross. Even in the OT, there was the church, God's remnant, the ecclesia, the called out assembly.

So are you saying that there is no distinction between the OT form and the NT form?

 

[AresMan]

By none biblical I simply meant someone who was a follower and spoke about it. There is nothing revealed anyplace about the church that was discovered or understood until the church was revealed. That makes it a mystery. No teacher or biblical student EVER spoke of the church age prior to the coming of the church. That makes it a mystery. You are denying truth. The church WAS a mystery and even remains today as such for the unconverted Jew. You are in denial my friend.

"As he saith also in Osee" (Rom 9:25)
"Esaias also crieth concerning Israel" (Rom 9:27)
"And as Esaias said before" (Rom 9:29)
"As it is written" (Rom 9:33)
"But what saith it?" (Rom 10:8)
"For the scripture saith" (Rom 10:11)
"For Esaias saith" (Rom 10:16)
"Have they not heard?" (Rom 10:18)
"First Moses saith" (Rom 10:19)
"But Esaias is very bold, and saith" (Rom 10:20)
"But to Israel he saith" (Rom 10:21)
"Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias?" (Rom 11:2)
"But what saith the answer of God unto him?" (Rom 11:3)
"According as it is written" (Rom 11:8)
"And David saith" (Rom 11:9)
"And if some of the branches be broken off" (Rom 11:17 c.f. Jer 11:16)
"as it is written" (Rom 11:26)

The church was a "mystery" NOT in the sense that it is totally absent from prophecy, but that it WAS prophesied in a way that was not entirely clear to the prophets. It was given in language with which they were familiar, using conditions that were present at the time they were given.

Peter writing to Jewish believers:
1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
1Pe 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
1Pe 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

 

[freeatlast]

"As he saith also in Osee" (Rom 9:25)
"Esaias also crieth concerning Israel" (Rom 9:27)
"And as Esaias said before" (Rom 9:29)
"As it is written" (Rom 9:33)
"But what saith it?" (Rom 10:8)
"For the scripture saith" (Rom 10:11)
"For Esaias saith" (Rom 10:16)
"Have they not heard?" (Rom 10:18)
"First Moses saith" (Rom 10:19)
"But Esaias is very bold, and saith" (Rom 10:20)
"But to Israel he saith" (Rom 10:21)
"Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias?" (Rom 11:2)
"But what saith the answer of God unto him?" (Rom 11:3)
"According as it is written" (Rom 11:8)
"And David saith" (Rom 11:9)
"And if some of the branches be broken off" (Rom 11:17 c.f. Jer 11:16)
"as it is written" (Rom 11:26)

The church was a "mystery" NOT in the sense that it is totally absent from prophecy, but that it WAS prophesied in a way that was not entirely clear to the prophets. It was given in language with which they were familiar, using conditions that were present at the time they were given.

Peter writing to Jewish believers:
1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
1Pe 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
1Pe 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

Yes, the church was a mystery and still is in part. The mystery is something not understood even if there is clues. As to clues in the OT I know of none that could ever be understood as what would happened on Pentecost and what has taken place from that time to today. I would suggest that anyone who claims that the church was not a mystery has blinded themselves to the mystery itself.
There was never any person who ever understood what was coming in regards to the church age, no one, not even the prophets, and that means the church, church age, was a mystery.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

Please write a short or long commentary on Hosea 1:3-11 concerning who is being spoken of what is being spoken of when events would take place being spoken of, keeping in mind say Jeremiah 3:8. Or any other passages you deem relative. I know Paul quotes some from Hosea.

Were both houses given a bill of divorce? If so, when? Scripture please. If not, why not?


Does the book of Hosea concern reconciliation? If so, in what concept?

While you are at it please address 1 Cor. 10:1. Were those the fathers of the Corinthians who were baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea?

For sure that will be spiritualized away.

The passage in Hosea speaks against futurist doctrine. Verse 7 eliminates the doctrine of a future battle of Armageddon. Verse 10 is an undeniable description of the Church with an innumerable number of souls from every nation. The "it shall come to pass" prophecy was fulfilled when Paul was sent to the Gentiles. We are proof of the fulfillment of this passage. Then verse 11 reveals Christ as the sole head of the Church. If verse 11 is referring to the genetic Israel & Judah, it is contradiction to verse 6. Israel & Judah are OT types.

A question, if verse 11 is referring to the genetic descendants of Israel & Judah, then where is the nation of Judah today?

But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen. Now when she had weaned Loruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son. Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God. Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel. (Hosea 1:7-11)

 

[OldRegular]

By non biblical I simply meant someone who was a follower and spoke about it. There is nothing revealed anyplace about the church that was discovered or understood until the church was revealed.

You are getting unreal "fal"!

Please tell us why secular writers 2000+ years ago would write about a prophecy of the Church. Please identify any secular writers of 2000+ years ago who wrote about the Jews or Israel.

That makes it a mystery.

You are not getting unreal fal, you are in the twilight zone. Consider what you just wrote. The Church is a mystery because it isn't in Greek or Roman mythology?

No teacher or biblical student EVER spoke of the church age prior to the coming of the church. That makes it a mystery. You are denying truth. The church WAS a mystery and even remains today as such for the unconverted Jew. You are in denial my friend.

You are denying Scripture and that is the truth. I have presented Scripture from the Old Testament, confirmed by the writers of the New Testament showing that the Church was included in prophecy. I have presented the words of Jesus Christ showing that the Church would include Jew and Gentile long before the conversion of Saul. AresMan has also presented Scripture showing the same.

It is you who are in denial! Apparently you would consider the Teaching Magisterium of dispensationalism superior to Scripture but you have much company. Those in the RCC do the same thing!

 

[thomas15]

Yes, the church was a mystery and still is in part. The mystery is something not understood even if there is clues. As to clues in the OT I know of none that could ever be understood as what would happened on Pentecost and what has taken place from that time to today. I would suggest that anyone who claims that the church was not a mystery has blinded themselves to the mystery itself.
There was never any person who ever understood what was coming in regards to the church age, no one, not even the prophets.

Not even the Apostles who heard Jesus speak about it before Pentecost. It is simply amazing that on a Baptist forum comprised of Baptist who claim Biblical authority in matters of faith that we are even having this discussion but we are!

And yet some speak with such certainty about things that are not even taught by the Bible such as covenant theology. They discount details of prophecy which they think are not important and yet insist that theirs is the correct interpretation of that same prophecy!

 

[OldRegular]

Yes, the church was a mystery and still is in part. The mystery is something not understood even if there is clues. As to clues in the OT I know of none that could ever be understood as what would happened on Pentecost and what has taken place from that time to today. I would suggest that anyone who claims that the church was not a mystery has blinded themselves to the mystery itself.
There was never any person who ever understood what was coming in regards to the church age, no one, not even the prophets, and that means the church, church age, was a mystery.

That is the very essence of denial! Just because you are either unable or unwilling to understand Scripture you say it couldn't happen!

 

[AresMan]

Yes, the church was a mystery and still is in part. The mystery is something not understood even if there is clues. As to clues in the OT I know of none that could ever be understood as what would happened on Pentecost and what has taken place from that time to today. I would suggest that anyone who claims that the church was not a mystery has blinded themselves to the mystery itself.
There was never any person who ever understood what was coming in regards to the church age, no one, not even the prophets, and that means the church, church age, was a mystery.

Yeah, but what real (classical or hyper) dispensationalism means by "mystery" is not that the church was prophesied yet unclear, but rather that its existence was entirely outside the realm of prophecy (which was entirely about geopolitical Israel). Basically, the 70 weeks given to Daniel were "supposed" to be consecutive, followed by the millennial reign, followed by the new heavens and earth. The church is an "interruption" in that prophecy and a "parenthesis" inserted between the 69th and 70th week. Accordingly, absolutely nothing in prophecy could even hint at the church.

Modern dispensationalism has softened these brash assertions by Darby and company.

 

[freeatlast]

That is the very essence of denial! Just because you are either unable or unwilling to understand Scripture you say it couldn't happen!

What did I say could not hapen?

 

[thomas15]

Yeah, but what real (classical or hyper) dispensationalism means by "mystery" is not that the church was prophesied yet unclear, but rather that its existence was entirely outside the realm of prophecy (which was entirely about geopolitical Israel). Basically, the 70 weeks given to Daniel were "supposed" to be consecutive, followed by the millennial reign, followed by the new heavens and earth. The church is an "interruption" in that prophecy and a "parenthesis" inserted between the 69th and 70th week. Accordingly, absolutely nothing in prophecy could even hint at the church.

Modern dispensationalism has softened these brash assertions by Darby and company.

I don't expect everyone to agree with me but the more of you I read the less impressed I become. I expect a lack of maturity from the kids and disney characters and would actually be disappointed if they started taking the Bible seriously because it has such entertainment value. But then there are those who just ramble on and on about nothing. Why?

 

[OldRegular]

The church was a "mystery" NOT in the sense that it is totally absent from prophecy, but that it WAS prophesied in a way that was not entirely clear to the prophets. It was given in language with which they were familiar, using conditions that were present at the time they were given.

I believe that Paul addresses this in Ephesians 3:4, 5.

4. Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5. Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

I believe that Paul is stating by use of the adverb "as" in verse 5 that the Church was not revealed to the same degree in prophecy as it was revealed to the holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That is certainly understandable, reality is often more clearly seen than prophecy!

I realize that dispensationalists take issue with this understanding but they are not shy about ignoring the the Old Testament Scripture regarding the Church; Scripture which is interpreted and verified by the writers of the New Testament. There is Hosea 2:23, referenced by none other than Paul in Romans 9:25, 26 ; Amos 9:11, referenced by James in Acts 15:13-18 in response to the preaching of the Gospel to the Gentile Cornelius; and then good old Peter, who first preached that Gospel to Cornelius, tells us in Acts 3:24. Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

Sadly all this is ignored by certain dispensationalists! But my understanding is that progressive dispensationalists are critically examining some of the doctrinal teachings/errors of classic dispensationalism!