The Closed Theism of Calvinism

[Van]

It appears all Calvinists posting of this board belief in Closed Theism. God is Omniscient, with Omniscient meaning God knows everything imaginable. Therefore God knows the future. And God's knowledge is perfect, He does not have a mistaken or inaccurate knowledge of the future. Foreknowledge presupposes the future is certain. Therefore the view of Omniscience requires that everything is predetermined, and this view is called exhaustive determinism.
God is not the indirect cause of anything because His foreknowledge requires that whatsoever comes to pass is ordained (predestined) by God.

Picture a murder. Closed Theism by logical necessity requires that God had perfect foreknowledge of the murder and therefore the murder was predestined, making God the author of the evil deeds of men. But God punishes the man for his deeds which God predestined.

Closed Theism makes God into a monster, and this monster God is the God of Calvinism.

 

[Rippon]

Van,if you start using language like "the monster God of Calvinism" --you are going nowhere. It just displays your immaturity.

 

[jbh28]

It appears all Calvinists posting of this board belief in Closed Theism. God is Omniscient, with Omniscient meaning God knows everything imaginable. Therefore God knows the future. And God's knowledge is perfect, He does not have a mistaken or inaccurate knowledge of the future.

AMEN!!!!

Foreknowledge presupposes the future is certain.

In God's eyes yes, our eyes no.

Therefore the view of Omniscience requires that everything is predetermined, and this view is called exhaustive determinism.


Picture a murder. Closed Theism by logical necessity requires that God had perfect foreknowledge of the murder and therefore the murder was predestined, making God the author of the evil deeds of men. But God punishes the man for his deeds which God predestined.

God is not the author of sin. Predestining or preordaining an event doesn't mean that god is the author of that event(sin). Man is the author of his sin. God preordained that He would allow that event to happen.

God is not the indirect cause of anything because His foreknowledge requires that whatsoever comes to pass is ordained (predestined) by God.

Not true. Ordination has two parts. The first is God decreeing something in the sense we usually use the term. (Creation...) There are other things that have been ordained to happen by God allowing them to happen (murder). Obviously, God could have stopped the murder from happening if he wanted to.

Closed Theism makes God into a monster, and this monster God is the God of Calvinism.

Who are you to question almighty God? God could do this if He wanted to and would be perfectly right to do so. It's HIS world, not ours. It's ALL about Him, not us!

 

[StefanM]

Well, Van is clearly espousing an unorthodox position here.

 

[Tom Bryant]

It's not just the God of the Calvinists that believe that God does indeed have a perfect knowledge of everything. It's the God of the Bible. (btw, I am not a Calvinist).

 

[jbh28]

Well, Van is clearly espousing an unorthodox position here.

Correct. I think it's time for the picture again.

 

[JesusFan]

It appears all Calvinists posting of this board belief in Closed Theism. God is Omniscient, with Omniscient meaning God knows everything imaginable. Therefore God knows the future. And God's knowledge is perfect, He does not have a mistaken or inaccurate knowledge of the future. Foreknowledge presupposes the future is certain. Therefore the view of Omniscience requires that everything is predetermined, and this view is called exhaustive determinism.
God is not the indirect cause of anything because His foreknowledge requires that whatsoever comes to pass is ordained (predestined) by God.
Picture a murder. Closed Theism by logical necessity requires that God had perfect foreknowledge of the murder and therefore the murder was predestined, making God the author of the evil deeds of men. But God punishes the man for his deeds which God predestined.

Closed Theism makes God into a monster, and this monster God is the God of Calvinism.

Don't ALL Christians though, unless you are denying The Truth That God has absolute knowledge of all things, hold that God has perfect foreknowledge?

IF you are of the "free will"Armenism camp, don't you hold God same way as Calvinists in this area?

God IS all knowing?

Are you saying that we all believe God caused Evil and Sin to happen directly?

God knowing extends that he knows exhaustively all things...
He can see every possible outcome in any given decision, and he can chose to directly interevene and cause things to go a specific way, or can allow it to pass, but knows what will be decided...

So God remains in absolute control, knows all things, directly control as he choses to fulfill His divine Will and Plans, and allows things to happen...

Think we are saying at no time is God not Sovernign,as He CAN chose to directly intervene at any time, can bring to pass His will, and choses to allow what he deems fit...

And IF God DID determine All things directly...

Who are we to tell the Creator what he can and cant do?

 

[Gabriel Elijah]

Correct. I think it's time for the picture again.

Jbh—you often have very humorous & clever add ons in your posts (I’ve seen at least 2 in past few days)---I personally appreciate the comic relief in this otherwise gang war we Baptist seem to be having against each other about soteriology!

 

[Van]

This thread is about what Calvinists believe. Stay on topic. Either God does not directly cause all things or He does? Which is it?

 

[jbh28]

This thread is about what Calvinists believe. Stay on topic. Either God does not directly cause all things or He does? Which is it?

oh, I guess I had read your OP. So what is it about Calvinism that you want to discuss. I didn't see anything in the OP about it.

Either God does not directly cause all things or He does? Which is it?

I believe I answered this in my first post on this thread.

 

[preachinjesus]

As one who doesnt embrace the Reformed position, I must say the OP is a fairly convoluted theological construction. Closed theism isnt the opposite of Open Theism. Also just because Reformed thought doesnt (rightly) condone the error of Open Theism doesnt mean it suddenly becomes "Closed."

Brother Van, while I appreciate your credulity and fervor in posting perhaps we can collaborate and find a way to properlu focus your theological efforts. I say this as a friend and pastor-teacher.

 

[Van]

So not one Calvinist disagrees that their view is God causes men to murder, then punishes them for murder.

Yes one Calvinist said God directly causes men to sin but is not the author of sin. But that is just an absurdity.

 

[jbh28]

So not one Calvinist disagrees that their view is God causes men to murder, then punishes them for murder.

Yes one Calvinist said God directly causes men to sin but is not the author of sin. But that is just an absurdity.

Did you not read my post?

 

[StefanM]

From the Westminster Confession of Faith:

CHAPTER III.

Of God's Eternal Decree.

I. God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.
II. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions; yet hath he not decreed any thing because he foresaw it as future, as that which would come to pass, upon such conditions.
III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death.
IV. These angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite that it can not be either increased or diminished.
V. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of his free grace and love alone, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving him thereunto; and all to the praise of his glorious grace.
VI. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath he, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto. Wherefore they who are elected being fallen in Adam are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ by his Spirit working in due season; are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation. Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
VII. The rest of mankind, God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will, whereby he extendeth or withholdeth mercy as he pleaseth, for the glory of his sovereign power over his creatures, to pass by, and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of his glorious justice.
VIII. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending to the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election. So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God; and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.

The first two points represent the mainstream of reformed thought on this point.

 

[Van]

Closed theism is the theism of Calvinism. There is nothing convoluted in that straightforward statement. Most of the Calvinists posting have agreed with it.

 

[StefanM]

God is not the indirect cause of anything because His foreknowledge requires that whatsoever comes to pass is ordained (predestined) by God.

Picture a murder. Closed Theism by logical necessity requires that God had perfect foreknowledge of the murder and therefore the murder was predestined, making God the author of the evil deeds of men. But God punishes the man for his deeds which God predestined.

You would do well to study basic logic before you go on such blasphemous rants.

Foreknowledge does not equal causation. You have not established otherwise.

 

[Van]

Yes one Calvinist said God directly causes men to sin but is not the author of sin. But that is just an absurdity. The Westminister confession presents that absurdity. God ordains whatsoever comes to pass but is not the author of sin. Now that is talking out of two sides. If God is not the author of sin, then He does not directly cause all things. Which is it, folks.

 

[StefanM]

Yes one Calvinist said God directly causes men to sin but is not the author of sin. But that is just an absurdity. The Westminister confession presents that absurdity. God ordains whatsoever comes to pass but is not the author of sin. Now that is talking out of two sides. If God is not the author of sin, then He does not directly cause all things. Which is it, folks.

God does not directly cause all things. The WCF does not claim that he does. Foreordination includes the acts of the wills of moral agents; it doesn't mean direct causation in every instance.

 

[Gabriel Elijah]

Van-I’m not a full-blooded Calvinist—so I can’t speak for my reformed brothers—but I think (despite your misconstruction of their system) jbh & Stefan did a good job answering & I’d be concerned if I were you--- if glf, Luke, or many of the other highly intelligent Calvinist read your faulty accusations! It will not be a pretty sight!

 

[Van]

Thankyou and God Bless StefanM. Now that you had the honesty and integrety to clearly state your view, and I assume you are a Calvinist, we can address why Boettner is wrong when He says foreknowledge presupposes the future is certain, i.e predestined.

His logic is sound, and reflects the Reformed Doctrine of Predestination.