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The Closed Theism of Calvinism

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Winman

Active Member
Don't put everyone in the same boat. What you said in the above paragraph is true of some, but not of all. I don't believe jbh takes that hardline stance.
I agree, this is a difficulty debating Calvinists, no two believe the same.
No quarrel there. BTW, how do you differentiate between God's foreknowledge and God's omniscience, or is there any differentiation?
Omniscience means to know everything, foreknowledge means to know something before it happens, they are not the same. God could not have foreknowledge of himself, as he has always existed.
Who said anything about a decree here?
We see God's omniscience, as he knows the end from the beginning.
We see God's foreknowledge, as he knew what would happen.
There must be a decree according to most Calvinists, as God can only have foreknowledge of what he decrees.
But did he "decree" these things to happen, as in an active decree, the same way that he decreed Creation to happen. I don't believe so.
According to what I have read, many Calvinist creeds say God decrees everything. If you scratch your nose, God decreed it.
I agree, but that is because of my definition of "decree" which may be different than someone else's. We need to make sure our definitions are the same.
I think of a decree as a formal order or command given by a ruler. Who knows what Calvinists believe, trying to nail them down on definitions is like trying to catch smoke with a butterfly net.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
I agree, this is a difficulty debating Calvinists, no two believe the same.
Omniscience means to know everything, foreknowledge means to know something before it happens, they are not the same. God could not have foreknowledge of himself, as he has always existed.
There must be a decree according to most Calvinists, as God can only have foreknowledge of what he decrees.
According to what I have read, many Calvinist creeds say God decrees everything. If you scratch your nose, God decreed it.

I think of a decree as a formal order or command given by a ruler. Who knows what Calvinists believe, trying to nail them down on definitions is like trying to catch smoke with a butterfly net.
Here is post 234 by jbh. Take a close look at it:
No, all that happens is decreed(whether active or allowance). God knows all things including all possibilities. (like your story you quoted.) God warned because he knew what would happen.


If you mean foresee actual event, then it's true. If you mean possibilities, then no. It depends on your definition.

foreknowledge of a possible(but not actual) event has nothing to do with decree because the event never happened. God foreseeing an actual event would equal a decree(whether by allowing or active)
NOTE:
1. Not all that happens is decreed.
--That is contrary to what you just said of all Calvinists. You haven't been listening to him or reading his posts very carefully.

2. God knows all possibilities.
--We all agree on that point. It points to his omniscience.

3. God warned David because he knew what would happen.
--That has nothing to do with a decree but with foreknowledge. I think you would agree with that also.

4. Again, he emphasizes that foreknowledge of a possible event has nothing to do with decree.

I agree with jbh. His position is not unreasonable. And I am not a Calvinist.
 

Winman

Active Member
Here is post 234 by jbh. Take a close look at it:

NOTE:
1. Not all that happens is decreed.
--That is contrary to what you just said of all Calvinists. You haven't been listening to him or reading his posts very carefully.
You need to read more carefully, he said;

"No, ALL that happens is decreed (whether active or allowance)."

2. God knows all possibilities.
--We all agree on that point. It points to his omniscience.
If God decrees all things, and all things occur as he decreed, there are no other possibilities.

3. God warned David because he knew what would happen.
--That has nothing to do with a decree but with foreknowledge. I think you would agree with that also.
I do not agree, many Calvinist creeds say God can only foreknow what he has decreed, therefore it is impossible to have foreknowledge without a decree.
4. Again, he emphasizes that foreknowledge of a possible event has nothing to do with decree.
There are no other possibilities, whatever God has decreed is all that can ever occur.

I agree with jbh. His position is not unreasonable. And I am not a Calvinist.

Good for you, he needs all the help he can get.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
You need to read more carefully, he said;

"No, ALL that happens is decreed (whether active or allowance)."
Your right. I need to read more carefully. However, did he tell you the difference between an active decree, and one by allowance. Is it possible that you call a decree by allowance by some other name and simply can't see through the nomenclature of "decree."
If God decrees all things, and all things occur as he decreed, there are no other possibilities.
Again, is he speaking of active decrees. There is a difference. What is a decree by allowance?
I do not agree, many Calvinist creeds say God can only foreknow what he has decreed, therefore it is impossible to have foreknowledge without a decree.
I don't agree. Not everything is decreed. Why do you think he gave you two different terms?
There are no other possibilities, whatever God has decreed is all that can ever occur.
You haven't been listening to him. The word "decree" gets in your way.
Good for you, he needs all the help he can get.
Don't we all.
 

Winman

Active Member
We were discussing foreknowledge and possibilities, there are no possibilities in Calvinism.

"To put it now in it's strongest form, we insist that God does as He pleases, only as He pleases, always as He pleases, that whatever takes place in time is but the outworking of that which He decreed in eternity" Pink- The Sovereignty of God

"God is seen as the great and mighty King who has appointed the course of nature and who directs the course of history down to it's minutest details."
Boettner- Doctrine of Predestination

"Thus, it is absolutely essential to see that God fordained everything that will come to pass. He predestined everything that will ever happen, down to the smallest detail."
C. Daniel- Biblical Calvinism

Sure looks like these famous Reformed authors believed God decreed everything to the smallest detail to me. If so, there is no such thing as other possibilities.
 
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DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
We were discussing foreknowledge and possibilities, there are no possibilities in Calvinism.

"To put it now in it's strongest form, we insist that God does as He pleases, only as he pleases, always as he pleases, that whatever takes place in time is but the outworking of that which he decreed in eternity" Pink- The Sovereignty of God

"God is seen as the great and mighty King who has appointed the course of nature and who directs the course of history down to it's minutest details."
Boettner- Doctrine of Predestination

"Thus, it is absolutely essential to see that God fordained everything that will come to pass. He predestined everything that will ever happen, down to the smallest detail."
C. Daniel- Biblical Calvinism

Sure looks like these famous Reformed authors believed God decreed everything to the smallest detail to me. If so, there is no such thing as other possibilities.
1. Not all Calvinists believe the same thing.
2. When you enter into a debate, debate the person's beliefs, not what you perceive to be their beliefs.
3. I don't believe that the person you were debating (jbh) falls into the category that you are describing but you weren't listening (reading) to him.
 

Winman

Active Member
1. Not all Calvinists believe the same thing.
2. When you enter into a debate, debate the person's beliefs, not what you perceive to be their beliefs.
3. I don't believe that the person you were debating (jbh) falls into the category that you are describing but you weren't listening (reading) to him.

Your memory is not very good, it was jbh28 that said ALL things are decreed. And it was you that did not read or understand him well, not me. Sounds like he is in perfect agreement with these Reformed authors on at least this one point.

If God decrees all things as jbh and these Reformed authors wrote, and if all things he decrees comes to pass as he decrees, there are no such things as possibilities.

Therefore, when God foresaw that Saul would go to Keilah, God must have decreed this, as Calvinism teaches God can only forsee what he has decreed. Of course, this must be so if God decrees everything.

And if so, (and it must be so according to this doctrine), then God had to intervene in time to thwart his own decree made in eternity past.
You can deny like jbh all you want, but you cannot escape the facts if God decrees everything.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Your memory is not very good, it was jbh28 that said ALL things are decreed. And it was you that did not read or understand him well, not me. Sounds like he is in perfect agreement with these Reformed authors on at least this one point.
It is basic terminology. Ask him what he meant when he said:

"all that happens is decreed(whether active or allowance). God knows all things including all possibilities. (like your story you quoted.) God warned because he knew what would happen."

That is not perfect agreement. Perfect agreement does not differentiate between two different types of decrees.
If God decrees all things as jbh and these Reformed authors wrote, and if all things he decrees comes to pass as he decrees, there are no such things as possibilities.
See above. What does a decree of allowance mean?
Therefore, when God foresaw that Saul would go to Keilah, God must have decreed this, as Calvinism teaches God can only forsee what he has decreed. Of course, this must be so if God decrees everything.
I believe jbh would probably say it was not an "active decree," but I may be wrong. Again, it is a matter of terminology.
And if so, (and it must be so according to this doctrine), then God had to intervene in time to thwart his own decree made in eternity past.
You can deny like jbh all you want, but you cannot escape the facts if God decrees everything.
And I don't believe you are accurately reading and/or understanding his posts.
 

Winman

Active Member
It is basic terminology. Ask him what he meant when he said:

"all that happens is decreed(whether active or allowance). God knows all things including all possibilities. (like your story you quoted.) God warned because he knew what would happen."

That is not perfect agreement. Perfect agreement does not differentiate between two different types of decrees.

See above. What does a decree of allowance mean?

I believe jbh would probably say it was not an "active decree," but I may be wrong. Again, it is a matter of terminology.

And I don't believe you are accurately reading and/or understanding his posts.

It's playing with words plain and simple. A decree is a decree and must come to pass, regardless of what kind of decree you call it.

You are correct, I cannot understand jbh, because his view is illogical and cannot be understood.

You cannot say God decrees all things and then say he does not decree evil. That is an illogical contradiction and cannot be understood by any rational person. Oh, I've heard their arguments, but they are illogical and non-sensical. They are deceiving themselves with false illogical arguments.

But I have presented Jer 32:35 several times where God himself said he never commanded (a decree) that the Jews sacrifice their children to idols.

This shows man has the ability to act independently of God and is therefore justly responsible for his own sin.

Calvinists on the other hand have to make non-sensical arguments to explain how God can decree all things and yet not be responsible for sin.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
It's playing with words plain and simple. A decree is a decree and must come to pass, regardless of what kind of decree you call it.
That statement indicts you as guilty--guilty of not listening.
Listen to jbh again, back from post #169

two types of decrees. One is a direct decree (like creation) and another is allowance. God allows people to sin. He has decreed that the even will happen by allowing it to happen. He could have stopped it.

He has been saying this for a number of pages now, and you have not been listening.
You are correct, I cannot understand jbh, because his view is illogical and cannot be understood.
What most people cannot understand is when you say that God is not omniscient, like you did in post 166:

I do not deny there are verses that seem to say God knows everything, but there are also verses that seem to indicate at times God does not know some things. That is very different from you, you only accept scripture you like, and attempt to explain away those that do not fit your system.
--There is never any time at which God is less than omniscient--never! He is God. To be less than knowing all things, all the time, is to make him less than God, even to the point of making him a man and thus taking away his deity. I find this a very serious accusation, and incomprehensible why any believer would even suggest such a position.
You cannot say God decrees all things and then say he does not decree evil. That is an illogical contradiction and cannot be understood by any rational person. Oh, I've heard their arguments, but they are illogical and non-sensical. They are deceiving themselves with false illogical arguments.
There are certain things that God decrees.
There are certain things that God allows: such as the suffering of Job.
--But it doesn't look like you are trying to understand jbh.
But I have presented Jer 32:35 several times where God himself said he never commanded (a decree) that the Jews sacrifice their children to idols.

This shows man has the ability to act independently of God and is therefore justly responsible for his own sin.
Your understanding of Jer.32:35 fell short. The verse was simply saying that God never intended for Israel to sin (or cause Israel to sin), in its most basic terms. I think you read too much into the verse.
Calvinists on the other hand have to make non-sensical arguments to explain how God can decree all things and yet not be responsible for sin.
There are some who believe that way.
jbh does not. He has explained that. I have quoted him for you.
 

Winman

Active Member
Do you deny that Jesus said he did not know the exact day and hour he would return but only his Father? Do you deny that God said to Abraham, "for NOW I know that thou fearest God"?

I find it serious when a person denies and does not believe God's word.

As for sin, Jesus said, "for it must needs be that offenses come". For love to exist, there must be free choice. A man cannot choose to love God unless he has free will, but this same freedom of will requires that a man also is free to rebel against God and hate him if he so chooses.

God does not approve of sin or decree it (in the sense of ordering or commanding it), but MUST allow it, otherwise love cannot exist.
 
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Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
26 Pages and counting, yet not one Calvinist has stated, yes, God predestines all things, or No, God does not predestine all things.

Folks, the answer is Calvinism teaches God predestines all things, Closed Theism, which turns God into a monster. A doctrine that hides in mumbo jumbo, and presents answers such as God allows people to sin according to His predestination is not a doctrine to trust. Boettner says God predestines all things. Read his book.
 
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jbh28

Active Member
26 Pages and counting, yet not one Calvinist has stated, yes, God predestines all things, or No, God does not predestine all things.

Folks, the answer is Calvinism teaches God predestines all things, Closed Theism, which turns God into a monster. A doctrine that hides in mumbo jumbo, and presents answers such as God allows people to sin according to His predestination is not a doctrine to trust. Boettner says God predestines all things. Read his book.

I'm curious as to how many times I've personally answered the question?
 

jbh28

Active Member
Do you deny that Jesus said he did not know the exact day and hour he would return but only his Father? Do you deny that God said to Abraham, "for NOW I know that thou fearest God"?

I find it serious when a person denies and does not believe God's word.
So are you denying God's omniscience again?

As for sin, Jesus said, "for it must needs be that offenses come". For love to exist, there must be free choice. A man cannot choose to love God unless he has free will, but this same freedom of will requires that a man also is free to rebel against God and hate him if he so chooses.

God does not approve of sin or decree it (in the sense of ordering or commanding it), but MUST allow it, otherwise love cannot exist.
I guess we won't love God in heaven :rolleyes:
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
My Friend Thomas Boston wanted me to post this for him, to answer some of the confusion posted in here;
Important Lessons Drawn from the Decrees of God
by Thomas Boston

1. Has God decreed all things that come to pass? Then there is nothing that falls out by chance, nor are we to ascribe what we meet with either to good or bad luck and fortune. There are many events in the world which men look upon as mere accidents, yet all these come by the counsel and appointment of Heaven. Solomon tells us, Prov. 16:33. that "the lot is cast into the lap, But its every decision is from the LORD." However disordered and fortuitous things may be with respect to us, yet they are all determined and directed by the Lord. When that man drew a bow at random, 1 Kings 22:34, it was merely accidental with respect to him, yet it was God that guided the motion of the arrow so as to strike the king of Israel rather than any other man. Nothing then comes to pass, however random and uncertain it may seem to be, but what was decreed by God.

2. Hence we see God's certain knowledge of all things that happen in the world, seeing his knowledge is founded on his decree. As he sees all things possible in the telescope of his own power, so he sees all things to come in the telescope of his own will; of his effecting will, if he hath decreed to produce them; and of his permitting will, if he hath decreed to allow them. Therefore his declaration of things to come is founded on his appointing them Isa 44:7, "And who can proclaim as I do? Then let him declare it and set it in order for Me, Since I appointed the ancient people. And the things that are coming and shall come, Let them show these to them." He foreknows the most necessary things according to the course of nature, because he decreed that such effects should proceed from and necessarily follow such and such causes: and he knows all future contingents, all things which shall happen by "chance," and the most free actions of rational creatures, because he decreed that such things should come to pass contingently or freely, according to the nature of second causes. So that what is casual or contingent with respect to us, is certain and necessary in regard of God.

3. Whoever may be the instruments of any good to us, of whatever sort, we must look above them, and see the hand and counsel of God in it, which is their first source, and be duly thankful to God for it. And whatever evil of suffering or afflictions befall us, we must look above the instruments of it to God. Affliction does not rise out of the dust, or come to men by chance; but it is the Lord that sends it, and we should recognize and reverence his hand in it. This is what David did in the day of his extreme distress; 2 Sam 16:11 "Let him alone, and let him curse; for so the LORD has ordered him." We should be patient under whatever distress comes upon us, considering that God is on our side, Job 2:10 "Shall we indeed accept good from God, and shall we not accept adversity?" This would be a happy means to quiet our complaining at adverse dispensations. Hence David says, "I was mute, I did not open my mouth, because it was you who did it," Psa 39:9

4. See here the evil of murmuring and complaining at our lot in the world. How apt are you to quarrel with God, as if he were in the wrong to you, when his dealings with you are not according to your own desires and wishes? You demand a reason, and call God to an account, Why did this happen to me? Why am I so much afflicted and distressed? Why am I so long afflicted? And why such an affliction rather than another? Why am I so poor and another so rich? Thus your hearts rise up against God. But you should remember, that this is to defame the counsels of infinite wisdom, as if God had not ordered your affairs wisely enough in his eternal counsel. We find the Lord reproving Job for this, chap. 40:2 "Shall the one who contends with the Almighty correct Him?" When you murmur and brood under cross and afflictive dispensations, this is a presuming to instruct God how to deal with you, and to reprove him as if he were in the wrong. Indeed, there is a kind of implicit blasphemy in it, as if you had more wisdom and justice to arrange your circumstances, and to carve out your own portion in the world. This is what you really mean when you say, "If I been on God's counsel, I would have ordered this matter better; things would not be with me as they are now." Oh presume not to correct the infinite wisdom of God, seeing he has decreed all things most wisely and judiciously.

5. There is no reason for people to excuse their sins and failing, from the doctrine of the divine decrees. Wicked men, when they commit some wicked or atrocious crime, might attempt to excuse themselves, saying, "Who can help it? God would have it so; it was appointed for me before I was born, so that I could not avoid it." This is a horrid abuse of the divine decrees, as if they might constrain men to sin. This is impossible. The decree is an immanent act of God, and so can have no influence, physical or moral, upon the wills of men, but leaves them to the liberty and free choice of their own hearts; and what sinners do, they do most freely and of their own choice. It is a horrid and detestable wickedness to cast the blame of your sin upon God's decree. This is to charge your villainy upon him, as if he were the author of it. It is great folly to cast your sins upon Satan who tempted you, or upon your neighbor who provoked you: but it is a far greater sin, nay, horrid blasphemy, to cast it upon God himself. A greater affront than this cannot be offered to the infinite holiness of God.

6. Let the people of God comfort themselves in all cases by this doctrine of the divine decrees; and, amidst whatever befalls them, rest quietly and submissively in the bosom of God, considering that whatever comes or can come to pass, proceeds from the decree of their gracious friend and reconciled Father, who knows what is best for them, and will make all things work together for their good. O what a sweet and pleasant life would you have under the heaviest pressures of affliction, and what heavenly serenity and tranquillity of mind would you enjoy, would you cheerfully acquiesce in the good will and pleasure of God, and embrace every dispensation, how no matter how sharp it may be, because it is determined and appointed for you by the eternal counsel of his will!
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
My Friend Thomas Boston wanted me to post this for him, to answer some of the confusion posted in here;
Important Lessons Drawn from the Decrees of God
by Thomas Boston

1. Has God decreed all things that come to pass? Then there is nothing that falls out by chance, nor are we to ascribe what we meet with either to good or bad luck and fortune. There are many events in the world which men look upon as mere accidents, yet all these come by the counsel and appointment of Heaven. Solomon tells us, Prov. 16:33. that "the lot is cast into the lap, But its every decision is from the LORD." However disordered and fortuitous things may be with respect to us, yet they are all determined and directed by the Lord. When that man drew a bow at random, 1 Kings 22:34, it was merely accidental with respect to him, yet it was God that guided the motion of the arrow so as to strike the king of Israel rather than any other man. Nothing then comes to pass, however random and uncertain it may seem to be, but what was decreed by God.

2. Hence we see God's certain knowledge of all things that happen in the world, seeing his knowledge is founded on his decree. As he sees all things possible in the telescope of his own power, so he sees all things to come in the telescope of his own will; of his effecting will, if he hath decreed to produce them; and of his permitting will, if he hath decreed to allow them. Therefore his declaration of things to come is founded on his appointing them Isa 44:7, "And who can proclaim as I do? Then let him declare it and set it in order for Me, Since I appointed the ancient people. And the things that are coming and shall come, Let them show these to them." He foreknows the most necessary things according to the course of nature, because he decreed that such effects should proceed from and necessarily follow such and such causes: and he knows all future contingents, all things which shall happen by "chance," and the most free actions of rational creatures, because he decreed that such things should come to pass contingently or freely, according to the nature of second causes. So that what is casual or contingent with respect to us, is certain and necessary in regard of God.

3. Whoever may be the instruments of any good to us, of whatever sort, we must look above them, and see the hand and counsel of God in it, which is their first source, and be duly thankful to God for it. And whatever evil of suffering or afflictions befall us, we must look above the instruments of it to God. Affliction does not rise out of the dust, or come to men by chance; but it is the Lord that sends it, and we should recognize and reverence his hand in it. This is what David did in the day of his extreme distress; 2 Sam 16:11 "Let him alone, and let him curse; for so the LORD has ordered him." We should be patient under whatever distress comes upon us, considering that God is on our side, Job 2:10 "Shall we indeed accept good from God, and shall we not accept adversity?" This would be a happy means to quiet our complaining at adverse dispensations. Hence David says, "I was mute, I did not open my mouth, because it was you who did it," Psa 39:9

4. See here the evil of murmuring and complaining at our lot in the world. How apt are you to quarrel with God, as if he were in the wrong to you, when his dealings with you are not according to your own desires and wishes? You demand a reason, and call God to an account, Why did this happen to me? Why am I so much afflicted and distressed? Why am I so long afflicted? And why such an affliction rather than another? Why am I so poor and another so rich? Thus your hearts rise up against God. But you should remember, that this is to defame the counsels of infinite wisdom, as if God had not ordered your affairs wisely enough in his eternal counsel. We find the Lord reproving Job for this, chap. 40:2 "Shall the one who contends with the Almighty correct Him?" When you murmur and brood under cross and afflictive dispensations, this is a presuming to instruct God how to deal with you, and to reprove him as if he were in the wrong. Indeed, there is a kind of implicit blasphemy in it, as if you had more wisdom and justice to arrange your circumstances, and to carve out your own portion in the world. This is what you really mean when you say, "If I been on God's counsel, I would have ordered this matter better; things would not be with me as they are now." Oh presume not to correct the infinite wisdom of God, seeing he has decreed all things most wisely and judiciously.

5. There is no reason for people to excuse their sins and failing, from the doctrine of the divine decrees. Wicked men, when they commit some wicked or atrocious crime, might attempt to excuse themselves, saying, "Who can help it? God would have it so; it was appointed for me before I was born, so that I could not avoid it." This is a horrid abuse of the divine decrees, as if they might constrain men to sin. This is impossible. The decree is an immanent act of God, and so can have no influence, physical or moral, upon the wills of men, but leaves them to the liberty and free choice of their own hearts; and what sinners do, they do most freely and of their own choice. It is a horrid and detestable wickedness to cast the blame of your sin upon God's decree. This is to charge your villainy upon him, as if he were the author of it. It is great folly to cast your sins upon Satan who tempted you, or upon your neighbor who provoked you: but it is a far greater sin, nay, horrid blasphemy, to cast it upon God himself. A greater affront than this cannot be offered to the infinite holiness of God.

6. Let the people of God comfort themselves in all cases by this doctrine of the divine decrees; and, amidst whatever befalls them, rest quietly and submissively in the bosom of God, considering that whatever comes or can come to pass, proceeds from the decree of their gracious friend and reconciled Father, who knows what is best for them, and will make all things work together for their good. O what a sweet and pleasant life would you have under the heaviest pressures of affliction, and what heavenly serenity and tranquillity of mind would you enjoy, would you cheerfully acquiesce in the good will and pleasure of God, and embrace every dispensation, how no matter how sharp it may be, because it is determined and appointed for you by the eternal counsel of his will!
Two points:
Most of us don't like to read long posts.
Second, your post makes God the author of sin. Most of disagree with that position.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
DHK,
God is not the author of sin. Which part of this post by Thomas Boston,did you mis-understand to lead you to make that claim.

Two points:
Most of us don't like to read long posts.
Second, your post makes God the author of sin. Most of disagree with that position.

Most of us don't like to read long posts.

I posted this for those who want to learn. Those who do not like to read will remain in ignorance to a large degree. God has chosen to put His word into writing...which leads to reading. Pastors and teachers when they write about the scriptures go into some detail to explain the truth of God.
Some do not like to read long posts...but what is more tedious is to read several in here who misuse theologigal times, Foreknow, predestine,ordain, decree, and not distinguish any difference...then make the evil accuasation about God being responsible for mans sin...
here again is from point 5...
There is no reason for people to excuse their sins and failing, from the doctrine of the divine decrees. Wicked men, when they commit some wicked or atrocious crime, might attempt to excuse themselves, saying, "Who can help it? God would have it so; it was appointed for me before I was born, so that I could not avoid it." This is a horrid abuse of the divine decrees, as if they might constrain men to sin. This is impossible. The decree is an immanent act of God, and so can have no influence, physical or moral, upon the wills of men, but leaves them to the liberty and free choice of their own hearts; and what sinners do, they do most freely and of their own choice. It is a horrid and detestable wickedness to cast the blame of your sin upon God's decree. This is to charge your villainy upon him, as if he were the author of it. It is great folly to cast your sins upon Satan who tempted you, or upon your neighbor who provoked you: but it is a far greater sin, nay, horrid blasphemy, to cast it upon God himself. A greater affront than this cannot be offered to the infinite holiness of God.

DHK...is this clear to you? How does this say something other than what it says? The sin belongs to man here.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
And the posts continue, with more and more Calvinists agreeing with the idea of Closed Theism, yet others still try to have it both ways.

Does God predestine everything? Yes according to the Westminister Confession, God ordains (predestines) whatsoever comes to pass. But that does not make God the author of Sin, according that same confession. Thus we have a logical impossiblity presented as if it was not absurd.
 

jbh28

Active Member
And the posts continue, with more and more Calvinists agreeing with the idea of Closed Theism, yet others still try to have it both ways.

Does God predestine everything? Yes according to the Westminister Confession, God ordains (predestines) whatsoever comes to pass. But that does not make God the author of Sin, according that same confession. Thus we have a logical impossiblity presented as if it was not absurd.

I gave an explanation, but you continue to ignore it. How come you ignore it? No answer so you just sit in your fallacy. Winman missed it with what I said but DHK(who doesn't agree with me on the calvinistic issues) said that I gave an explanation. So why don't you go read that and let's discuss it instead of the continual ranting about nobody answering you when they have.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
DHK,
God is not the author of sin. Which part of this post by Thomas Boston,did you mis-understand to lead you to make that claim.
I stand by my first point: Most people don't like to read long posts.
I read this:
1. Has God decreed all things that come to pass? Then there is nothing that falls out by chance, nor are we to ascribe what we meet with either to good or bad luck and fortune. There are many events in the world which men look upon as mere accidents, yet all these come by the counsel and appointment of Heaven.

2. Hence we see God's certain knowledge of all things that happen in the world, seeing his knowledge is founded on his decree.
And that was enough. Perhaps I skimmed over the third paragraph too quickly. But what does this teach?

All comes by the counsel and appointment of heaven (including sin I would presume).
His knowledge is founded on his decree. Then go back one statement. God's certain knowledge of all things that happen in the world. Hence, he must decree all things (including evil and sin).

This makes God the author of sin before I get to the third paragraph. And if I talk to Luke he would agree with me.

I posted this for those who want to learn. Those who do not like to read will remain in ignorance to a large degree. God has chosen to put His word into writing...which leads to reading. Pastors and teachers when they write about the scriptures go into some detail to explain the truth of God.
The RCC say the same thing about the early church fathers and their Catechism. But I don't want to take the time to read all through that either.

Some here think that I should read all through Calvin's Institutes. I think that also would be a waste of time. Time spent in the Word of God is more profitable.

Some do not like to read long posts...but what is more tedious is to read several in here who misuse theologigal times, Foreknow, predestine,ordain, decree, and not distinguish any difference...then make the evil accuasation about God being responsible for mans sin...
here again is from point 5...
Theological terms can be defined succinctly by the one who is posting them. God forbid that we cannot be literate enough in our own beliefs that we cannot define the very words that we are using.
DHK...is this clear to you? How does this say something other than what it says? The sin belongs to man here.
I am not sure. Perhaps the post has contradicted itself. I will think about it.
 
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