The Closed Theism of Calvinism

[jbh28]

It is you that adds to scripture. God clearly said Saul would come to Keilah, and the men of Keilah would give David and his men over to Saul. God didn't say he knew David would flee and Saul would change his mind and decide not to come to Keilah afterall. Not a word.

Argument from silence. Actually, an argument from silence that contradicts other Scriptures.

Anybody who thinks for a moment can discern that at the moment David questioned God, these are the events that would take place. God told him the absolute truth at that MOMENT. But when David fled, these foreseen events changed and so did God's foreknowledge. Until David fled, what God told him was true and was sure to take place.

God's foreknowledge changed? This isn't a TV show. Foreknowledge doesn't change. That doesn't even make any sense at all.

You have been taught that God decrees or ordains all events that take place, but scripture shows man can alter these events. You might not like that, but this is exactly what this passage shows.

Not even close. You make an argument from silence.

You insist God knew David would flee, but there is not a single word in scripture to support you, in fact, what is actually shown in scripture refutes your view. You must add to scripture what is not shown to support your doctrine. Not very wise IMHO.

Ok, so god doesn't know the future, yet the Bible clearly teaches it does. Nice try again, but the biblical truth that God has complete omniscience is still true.

 

[Winman]

Argument from silence. Actually, an argument from silence that contradicts other Scriptures.

God's foreknowledge changed? This isn't a TV show. Foreknowledge doesn't change. That doesn't even make any sense at all.
Not even close. You make an argument from silence.
Ok, so god doesn't know the future, yet the Bible clearly teaches it does. Nice try again, but the biblical truth that God has complete omniscience is still true.

You are the King of Irony. It is you that answers from silence, I provided a passage of scripture where God said something would happen that did not take place.

Let me ask you, why would God warn people if all things are predetermined? Why did God warn the wise men not to return to Herod? Isn't that because they would have returned? Why would God warn Joseph to flee into Egypt to protect Jesus? Doesn't this prove that God must at times intervene to change the course of events that would have taken place?

I believe this shows men not only have free will, but free action as well, else why would God need to intervene?

Does God need to intervene to change his own determined plans? That doesn't make sense at all. If God decrees all things that occur, and did not want Jesus killed, why then would he decree that Herod would seek his life?

So, you would have God intervening in order to alter his own decrees. This is non-sensical to say the least.

Explain that to me if you can.

 

[jbh28]

You are the King of Irony. It is you that answers from silence, I provided a passage of scripture where God said something would happen that did not take place.

No, you said God didn't know or determine the change which wasn't in Scripture.

Let me ask you, why would God warn people if all things are predetermined? Why did God warn the wise men not to return to Herod? Isn't that because they would have returned? Why would God warn Joseph to flee into Egypt to protect Jesus? Doesn't this prove that God must at times intervene to change the course of events that would have taken place?

I'm not sure what you are even getting at. God has preordained the world by both active decrees and allowing people to make choices, Yes, God intervened to make sure certain things happens that was according to his will. I've said that all along.

I believe this shows men not only have free will, but free action as well, else why would God need to intervene?

Men have wills. Said that about a dozen or more times.

Does God need to intervene to change his own determined plans? That doesn't make sense at all. If God decrees all things that occur, and did not want Jesus killed, why then would he decree that Herod would seek his life?

It doesn't make sense because God knowing what is going to happen doesn't change. We don't know the future, God does. (see, I would also say that God knows all possible outcomes too)

So, you would have God intervening in order to alter his own decrees. This is non-sensical[sic] to say the least.

He's not altering any decrees. You must be trying to equate God's foreknowledge/determination to that of a movie. Back to the future isn't real. God intervenes, yes. He knew he would intervene. It was predetermined that he would intervene.

 

[Winman]

No, you said God didn't know or determine the change which wasn't in Scripture.
I'm not sure what you are even getting at. God has preordained the world by both active decrees and allowing people to make choices, Yes, God intervened to make sure certain things happens that was according to his will. I've said that all along.
Men have wills. Said that about a dozen or more times.

It doesn't make sense because God knowing what is going to happen doesn't change. We don't know the future, God does. (see, I would also say that God knows all possible outcomes too)
He's not altering any decrees. You must be trying to equate God's foreknowledge/determination to that of a movie. Back to the future isn't real. God intervenes, yes. He knew he would intervene. It was predetermined that he would intervene.

If anyone argues that life is a movie, it is you. You believe that we are all actors following a script and even God makes a cameo appearance now and then like Alfred Hitchcock.

Your view doesn't make sense. The reason God warned the wise men not to return to Herod is because otherwise they would have. But in your view God would have decreed they would return to Herod. So, you have God intervening to thwart his own decree.

It makes no sense for the scriptures to say the wise men were WARNED not to return to Herod unless God believed they were going to return to him.

Calvinists argue that whatever takes place must have been decreed or ordained. This is a false argument because it is unprovable. Just because someone chooses to act in one way does not prove they could not have chosen another way. It is also pure circular reasoning.

 

[DHK]

It makes no sense for the scriptures to say the wise men were WARNED not to return to Herod unless God believed they were going to return to him.

The wise men were warned by God not to return to Herod. (the rest of your statement is speculation).

For example, I can warn my child not to play in the middle of the busy intersection, whether or not I know they would go and play in the busy intersection. I will warn them anyway.

Thus the only statement of fact is that the wise men were warned by God not to return to Herod. (not because or unless...)
The wise men acted on the command of God by faith. They obeyed.

God knew, in his omniscience, what they would do, before he told them what to do. He is omniscient. He knows all things. Whether the Calvinist calls this determinism or not is up to him. I don't. I simply look at and say that God foreknew what would happen because God knows all things and his knowledge cannot be limited in anyway. Does that make sense to you?

 

[jbh28]

If anyone argues that life is a movie, it is you. You believe that we are all actors following a script and even God makes a cameo appearance now and then like Alfred Hitchcock.

Winman, that's not even close to true to what I have said.

Your view doesn't make sense. The reason God warned the wise men not to return to Herod is because otherwise they would have.

more than likely

But in your view God would have decreed they would return to Herod. So, you have God intervening to thwart his own decree.

No I don't, not at all. My view says that it was decreed that they did exactly as they did.

It makes no sense for the scriptures to say the wise men were WARNED not to return to Herod unless God believed they were going to return to him.

Ok, never said otherwise.

Calvinists argue that whatever takes place must have been decreed or ordained. This is a false argument because it is unprovable.

Scriptural support is provable. Ephesians 1:11. Also, I have given to types of predetermination, yet you want to pretend I have only given one.

Just because someone chooses to act in one way does not prove they could not have chosen another way. It is also pure circular reasoning.

Never said that. Pure straw man. (and it wouldn't be circular reasoning, you may want to check on what that is).

Example. I go to God and ask him who will win the world series this year. Does God know? Yes. Could he tell me the answer? sure. Will that change? Nope, otherwise God is wrong or God is a liar.

Now, in the story about the wise men, God told them not to return to Herod. Why? Because God knew what would happen if they did, so he told them to go somewhere else.

the problem is not with preordaining all events, it's that you make such a small definition of that and then refute only that portion instead of the full definition. This is called a straw man. And your arguments have nothing to do with preordaining all events but about God's omniscience.

 

[Winman]

Winman, that's not even close to true to what I have said.
more than likelyNo I don't, not at all. My view says that it was decreed that they did exactly as they did.
Ok, never said otherwise.
Scriptural support is provable. Ephesians 1:11. Also, I have given to types of predetermination, yet you want to pretend I have only given one.

Never said that. Pure straw man. (and it wouldn't be circular reasoning, you may want to check on what that is).

Example. I go to God and ask him who will win the world series this year. Does God know? Yes. Could he tell me the answer? sure. Will that change? Nope, otherwise God is wrong or God is a liar.

Now, in the story about the wise men, God told them not to return to Herod. Why? Because God knew what would happen if they did, so he told them to go somewhere else.

the problem is not with preordaining all events, it's that you make such a small definition of that and then refute only that portion instead of the full definition. This is called a straw man. And your arguments have nothing to do with preordaining all events but about God's omniscience.

There are no "if's" in your system. You say God warned the wise men not to return to Herod because he knew what would happen "if" they did. That proves God KNEW they were going to return, else there would be no need to warn them. And if every event is his decree, then the wise men returning to Herod was his decree. Therefore you have God intervening to thwart his own decree.

You will never admit it, but you have painted yourself into a corner.

In your system, everyone is doing God's will 100% of the time which is easily refuted by scripture. If all events are by his decree, and all things occur as he decreed, then all men are doing his will at all times, including evil.

 

[Winman]

You see, you are trapped in your own illogical system.

If God decreed that Saul would not go to Keilah, then God lied to David when he said he would. The only way he could say this honestly is if he had already decreed that Saul would go down. But he also had to decree he would intervene and warn David so David would flee. Thus, you have God decreeing that he would intervene (it happened, didn't it?) to thwart his own decree, but also, God himself is not free and is enslaved by his own decrees.

Sure is a lot simpler if you realize men have free will and actions.

 

[Cypress]

The wise men were warned by God not to return to Herod. (the rest of your statement is speculation).

For example, I can warn my child not to play in the middle of the busy intersection, whether or not I know they would go and play in the busy intersection. I will warn them anyway.

Thus the only statement of fact is that the wise men were warned by God not to return to Herod. (not because or unless...)
The wise men acted on the command of God by faith. They obeyed.

God knew, in his omniscience, what they would do, before he told them what to do. He is omniscient. He knows all things. Whether the Calvinist calls this determinism or not is up to him. I don't. I simply look at and say that God foreknew what would happen because God knows all things and his knowledge cannot be limited in anyway. Does that make sense to you?

DHK
Since we are assuming that God knows what we will do certainly, then Winman is accurate and it is a statement of fact. Unless of course we take the narrative to be hyperbole or something that was baseless. The analogy of us knowing whether or not the child will go in the road is too far off since we dont have the same knowledge. This type of warning or language in scripture from God has no real meaning if the warning has no chance of affecting the outcome imo. I am open to another reason why he would warn us if there is a better one though :love2:

 

[Van]

Does the Arminian conjecture, God foreknows the autonomous choices of individuals before they are created, mesh or share common ground with the Calvinist conjecture, God allowing what He has predestined. Not even close.

So we come full circle, Calvinism presents closed theism, everything is predestined, you were saved or damned from all eternity, for all eternity, and nothing you do can alter that outcome for yourself or your loved ones.

No Calvinist has disagreed with Boettner, to foreknow presupposes predestinitation. Not one. Behold, the Closed Theism of Calvinism, which turns God into a Monster. But the Monster is Closed Theism.

 

[jbh28]

There are no "if's" in your system.

Yes there are in our perspective. You keep saying that and it's misrepresenting what I just got done saying.

You say God warned the wise men not to return to Herod because he knew what would happen "if" they did. That proves God KNEW they were going to return, else there would be no need to warn them.

Yep

And if every event is his decree, then the wise men returning to Herod was his decree. Therefore you have God intervening to thwart his own decree.

No, it was never decreed that they returned(they didn't). That's where your error in my view lies.

You will never admit it, but you have painted yourself into a corner.

not really, but if it makes you feel better. Just keep misrepresenting me. It's not like I just stated my view or anything. You have a faulty view of determination.

In your system, everyone is doing God's will 100% of the time which is easily refuted by scripture.

Not if you are going to use it that way. But in a sense, God's "works everything after the council of his will."

If all events are by his decree, and all things occur as he decreed, then all men are doing his will at all times, including evil.

Do you even read what I post? Straw man. I'm not going to repeat it again. It's on the previous page for you to view. (2 types of determination have been presented in case you are wondering)

 

[jbh28]

You see, you are trapped in your own illogical system.

If God decreed that Saul would not go to Keilah, then God lied to David when he said he would. The only way he could say this honestly is if he had already decreed that Saul would go down. But he also had to decree he would intervene and warn David so David would flee. Thus, you have God decreeing that he would intervene (it happened, didn't it?) to thwart his own decree, but also, God himself is not free and is enslaved by his own decrees.

Sure is a lot simpler if you realize men have free will and actions.

If it didn't happen, it wasn't decreed to happen. That's why God warned David. You are acting like decrees are going to happen with God sitting back and doing nothing and people not making any actions, which isn't true.

straw man - come back when you want to address my argument.

 

[jbh28]

Does the Arminian conjecture, God foreknows the autonomous choices of individuals before they are created, mesh or share common ground with the Calvinist conjecture, God allowing what He has predestined. Not even close.

So we come full circle, Calvinism presents closed theism, everything is predestined, you were saved or damned from all eternity, for all eternity, and nothing you do can alter that outcome for yourself or your loved ones.

No Calvinist has disagreed with Boettner, to foreknow presupposes predestinitation. Not one. Behold, the Closed Theism of Calvinism, which turns God into a Monster. But the Monster is Closed Theism.

Thanks for playing. I've only answered this about 2 dozen times, but you and winman keep purposefully ignoring it so you can keep your straw man in tact.

 

[Van]

The OP presented the truth. We have 213 posts and 22 pages of evasion and correction.

Not one Calvinist has the courage to say either, (1) God does predestine everything, or (2) God does not predestine everything. Not one. Who knew.

 

[humblethinker]

The OP presented the truth. We have 213 posts and 22 pages of evasion and correction.

Not one Calvinist has the courage to say either, (1) God does predestine everything, or (2) God does not predestine everything. Not one. Who knew.

I haven't read this entire thread but, it seems a resonable thing to answer either (1) or (2) and then argue the points or argue why that is not a reasonable question (or whatever the objection).

 

[Skandelon]

The OP presented the truth. We have 213 posts and 22 pages of evasion and correction.

Not one Calvinist has the courage to say either, (1) God does predestine everything, or (2) God does not predestine everything. Not one. Who knew.

Actually, I believe Jbh said that he believes God does predestine everything, but he includes within his understanding of "predestine" the concept of foreknowledge of evil and permission/allowing it to occur, rather than an active determination of God. A few others have affirmed this position (but maybe not on this thread).

 

[Skandelon]

But having said that I also agree with your statement here:

Does the Arminian conjecture, God foreknows the autonomous choices of individuals before they are created, mesh or share common ground with the Calvinist conjecture, God allowing what He has predestined. Not even close.

 

[humblethinker]

ha! Ater reading the OP, it seems a little different than the simple choices given here...

 

[Van]

If God predestines everything, then God is the author of sin. No Calvinist will admit to that, but some "hard determinists" will. Behold the closed (but denied) theism of Calvinism.

 

[jbh28]

The OP presented the truth. We have 213 posts and 22 pages of evasion and correction.

Not one Calvinist has the courage to say either, (1) God does predestine everything, or (2) God does not predestine everything. Not one. Who knew.

So, you present a false dichotomy and then call it "evasion" when we correct you?