Not sure anyone would allow anything to be rocked based on what you believe. Such arrogance is unnecessary in a discussion.
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The Closed Theism of Calvinism
- Thread starter Van
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Not sure anyone would allow anything to be rocked based on what you believe. Such arrogance is unnecessary in a discussion.
What did God himself say? He said this sin did not come into his mind. How can you know something that did not come into your mind?
Deal with it.
That is not what God said Winman.
Look at the verse again:
And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin. (Jeremiah 32:35)
And they build the high places of Baal, that are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come up on my heart to do this abomination, so as to cause Judah to sin. (Jeremiah 32:35) [Young's]
It was not in the heart or mind of God to cause Judah to sin, whether directly (by God's own hand) or indirectly through the abomination of the gods of other wicked nations.
I am a father. It is never my intention to cause my children to sin. It does not come into my heart or mind to cause my children to sin. It does not come into my heart or mind to do evil (by some other person) in order to cause my children to sin.
This is the sense of the passage.
The arrogance is not on my part, it is with those here who constantly tell us they know exactly what God knows, or that God causes all things, ignoring many scriptures that refute their view. It is those who quickly label anyone who disagrees with their system a heretic.
[personal attack edited]
sorry, but you are being very arrogant. No need for hit.
The Bible is clear that God has all knowledge. The passage here doesn't say that God didn't know the event. You are reading something into the text. And as far as the heretical comments, you are promoting open theism.
Some passages that teach that God knows everything
1 John 3:19-20 - "By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him; for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything."
Job 37:16 - "Do you know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him who is perfect in knowledge,"
Psalms 147:5 "Great is our Lord, and abundant in power; his understanding is beyond measure."
Acts 15:18 - "Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world"
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I do not deny there are verses that seem to say God knows everything, but there are also verses that seem to indicate at times God does not know some things. That is very different from you, you only accept scripture you like, and attempt to explain away those that do not fit your system.
You say when God says he did not know something it is figurative, but when it says he knows everything it is literal. How do you know this? What if when God says he does not know something it is literal, and when it says he knows all things it is figurative?
I am not saying this, but someone who took the opposite view of you would have as much evidence as you have. What makes you correct?
Me, I am still trying to figure it out, I do not claim to know everything.
But when God said that NOW he knew that Abraham feared him, or that he would go down to Sodom and then he would know if they were doing according to the cry that came up, I believe him, God does not lie or mislead.
Correction. There are verses that DIRECTLY say that God knows everything. there are other verses that SEEM to say that he doesn't, but doesn't actually say that. I quoted verses that DIRECTLY say that God knows everything.
No, I accept the direct Scriptures. None of the passages that SEEM to say he doesn't know actually say He doesn't know. It's an assumption.
Nice changing words there. When he says he knows everything I take it literal, yes. but he NEVER says he doesn't know something. So your statement was inaccurate.
The statements that says he knows everything are direct. In addition, God is eternal, how is it even possible to not know everything if he is eternal. But besides that, the Bible says he knows everything. It never says he didn't know something.
that's good. I don't either. But God does and claims to.
Didn't say he didn't know before. It's the fact that at this time, Abraham has proven himself. It's not that God didn't already know the answer. Notice the difference? It doesn't say he didn't know.
two types of decrees. One is a direct decree (like creation) and another is allowance. God allows people to sin. He has decreed that the even will happen by allowing it to happen. He could have stopped it.
Taking Scripture out of context to prove your point simply weakens your argument.
I agree that God does not decree all things to come to pass. He knows all that will come to pass. That is different. I would never take anything away from God's omniscience, for that would make Him less than God. It would redefine the very word of "omniscience." God does not have to decree all things. I agree with that. But that is not what that verse says.
And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin. (Jeremiah 32:35)
It did not come into God's mind...to cause Judah to sin.
God had no intention of causing Judah to sin.
This is not difficult to grasp once you take away all the extra verbiage and clauses, and strip it down to the very basic of what God is saying here. I gave you a good example in my previous post.
The "intention" did not have to be in Israel's time. The "intention" could have been in eternity past. It doesn't have to be in a decree. One cannot take away from his omniscience. He knows what is going to happen without decreeing it to happen. If you take away from that omniscience you make God less than God. He is no longer God; no longer deity. You are attacking deity by attacking his omniscience.
Even the RCC knows better than that. They even consider Mary as omniscient.
God cannot stop sin and Jesus said so.
Mat 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! FOR IT MUST NEEDS BE THAT OFFENCES COME; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!
Calvinism goes right off the track from the beginning. If a person understands that God gives men free will in order that men may choose whether they will love or hate him, then they would understand that sin is necessary.
God does not want, decree, or tempt any man to sin. But in order to give men the ability to love him, he must allow free will, which must allow men to choose against him and sin.
God has the power to stop every man dead in his tracks before he could sin, but this would not allow men to freely love him. Love requires choice, you cannot force anyone to love you. You can force them to obey you, but you cannot force love.
It's like you guys don't understand love, no wonder Calvinists have always come across as unloving and uncompassionate to others. I've heard people describe Calvin as a cruel tyrant, I've never heard anybody describe him as loving, kind, or compassionate.
Some here have compared Calvinism to Islam. It's true, they are very similar. Did you know that the word love is not found in the Koran?
That doesn't say that God "cannot" stop sin. And unless you think we will have sin till all eternity, you didn't even believe what you just stated anyway.
God decrees to allow sin to happen.
Just contradicted your self form your opening statement.
This has nothing to do with the conversation. STOP TALKING ABOUT CALVINISM EVERY SINGLE TIME YOU CAN!
Lets summarize. James 2:5 says God chose the poor to the world. This does not mean God chose the poor to the world because that takes the verse out of context. God remembers our sins no more. This does not mean God remembers our sins no more. It is a figure of speech. God chose the foolish in the world to shame the wise. No that one does not mean what it says either. God chose the weak in the world to shame the strong. No that really does not mean what it says. God chose what is low and despised in the world. No, no, no God could not possibly choose people for salvation when they were in the world, I do not care how many times God's inspired word says it. I can make any verse mean whatever I want, because scripture can only mean what my man-made doctrine says.
The posts all boil down to the same thing, a complete denial of the authority of scripture and revolt against scripture alone as our authority.
The posts all boil down to the same thing, a complete denial of the authority of scripture and revolt against scripture alone as our authority.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Bro, don't make it personal. You see things differently and that is ok, this is a debate forum after all. Let's all just try to stick to topic, or don't engage at all.
James 2:5 was written by the half brother of Jesus, 1 Corinthians 1:26-30 was written by Paul, 1 Peter 1:1-2 was written by Peter, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 written by Paul, 1 Peter 2:9-10 written by Peter, and none of it actually means God chose individuals for salvation during their lifetime. And why are all these verses nullified, to protect a doctrine without a shed of actual support in scripture, contextually considered.
Lets summarize. James 2:5 says God chose the poor to the world. This does not mean God chose the poor to the world because that takes the verse out of context. God remembers our sins no more. This does not mean God remembers our sins no more. It is a figure of speech. God chose the foolish in the world to shame the wise. No that one does not mean what it says either. God chose the weak in the world to shame the strong. No that really does not mean what it says. God chose what is low and despised in the world. No, no, no God could not possibly choose people for salvation when they were in the world, I do not care how many times God's inspired word says it. I can make any verse mean whatever I want, because scripture can only mean what my man-made doctrine says.
This is how false doctrine is defended, but not how we are supposed to learn from God's word.
This is how false doctrine is defended, but not how we are supposed to learn from God's word.
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Alive in Christ
New Member
Van...
Oh, C'mon Van. Dont dilly dally around. Tell us what you REALLY think! :laugh:
Seriously, I am not a calvinist, and I have great issues with some of the calvinist points.
But having said that, Calvinism is held to by folks who have the best of intentions, and they are sincere and love God supremely...as Arminions do.
I personally would not adress the calvinists with the scorn that your opening post presents. They deserve better than that.
AiC
Oh, C'mon Van. Dont dilly dally around. Tell us what you REALLY think! :laugh:
Seriously, I am not a calvinist, and I have great issues with some of the calvinist points.
But having said that, Calvinism is held to by folks who have the best of intentions, and they are sincere and love God supremely...as Arminions do.
I personally would not adress the calvinists with the scorn that your opening post presents. They deserve better than that.
AiC
Not "to" but "of". God chose the poor OF this world. They are the ones, as opposed to the rich (speaking in generalities) that are rich in faith. That is what the passage says.
Yes, it is a figure of speech. God does not have Alzheimer's. Your interpretation contradicts other passages of Scripture that directly tells us that God knows all things.
IMO, God allows those individuals to make their own decisions. They choose Christ. Whosoever will may come. The Holy Spirit does a work on their hearts. According to John 16, it is the Holy Spirit who convicts of sin and judgment, and of righteousness. He is the one that works through God's Word. Faith comes through hearing and hearing through the Word of God--the gospel. God gives the individual the choice. But he already knows the choice that the individual is going to make. He doesn't force the individual one way or another, but being omniscient he knows what the outcome will be.
No, basic hermeneutical principles prevent us from doing this. The Bible does not contradict itself, nor does God contradict himself or go against his nature or his word.
The scripture alone is our authority. There are hermeneutical principles that guide us, as well as the Holy Spirit. One of them is very simple. We recognize figures of speech when we see them: similes, metaphors, anthropormorphisms, and other literary devices. We take the Bible literally unless the context dictates otherwise.
I don't take it personal. I've been on forums that were not moderated and I've seen this type of poster. I learned a long time ago to not take things personal. Winman disagrees with me a lot and that's fine. Van seems to take it to a whole new level. He just repeats his error over and over and over again. He doesn't engage in conversation. Just posts his error again. Go back and look at conversations. He says something(point A), somebody replies with another point. He just repeats his own point without addressing the opposing point. (or he misrepresents it like he just did again. He has stated repeating that people have said that God didn't choose the poor, but that can't be further from the truth. I have never said that. You have never said that. Nobody has, but he says we have.
ok, I was basically pointing him out. No reason for anybody to debate him as he won't debate, just repeat himself.
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