The Closed Theism of Calvinism

[Van]

Folks who have no answer to scripture try to shift the subject to the qualifications and character of their opponent.

DHK, I have no response to your post. James 2:5 says what it says and saying it does not mean what it says is simply a revolt against God's word. We have many verses that say the same thing, and you would nullify them all. We have nothing to discuss.

 

[Van]

Hi AIC, I did not say nor suggest anything about the character of Calvinists. I have said the doctrine they espouse turns God into a monster. As I have pointed out Calvinists on one hand say God is not the author of sin, and on the other God ordains (predestines) whatsoever comes to pass. These assertions present a logical impossiblity. Now if God is not the author of sin, then God is not a monster. But where the Calvinists come up short is they have no answer as to how God could ordain everything and not be the author of sin.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Van...

Calvinists on one hand say God is not the author of sin, and on the other God ordains (predestines) whatsoever comes to pass. These assertions present a logical impossiblity. Now if God is not the author of sin, then God is not a monster. But where the Calvinists come up short is they have no answer as to how God could ordain everything and not be the author of sin.

Oh, I agree. I'm definetly with you on that point. :thumbs:

 

[jbh28]

Van...



Oh, I agree. I'm definetly with you on that point. :thumbs:

Calvinists on one hand say God is not the author of sin,
true
and on the other God ordains (predestines) whatsoever comes to pass.
true
These assertions present a logical impossiblity.
no they don't
Now if God is not the author of sin, then God is not a monster. But where the Calvinists come up short is they have no answer as to how God could ordain everything and not be the author of sin.

I've only given it about a dozen times.

there are two ways that things are ordained. First, what we usually refer as his "decrees" like creation. You also have things he has allowed to happen (i.e. sin). God ordained that he would allow a person to sin. While the person is sinning, God is using that for his own good. Think of the example of Joseph and his brothers. God allowed the brothers to sell Joseph. God could have stopped them, but didn't. Joseph going to Egypt was all part of God's plan.

 

[Skandelon]

Hi AIC, I did not say nor suggest anything about the character of Calvinists. I have said the doctrine they espouse turns God into a monster. As I have pointed out Calvinists on one hand say God is not the author of sin, and on the other God ordains (predestines) whatsoever comes to pass. These assertions present a logical impossiblity. Now if God is not the author of sin, then God is not a monster. But where the Calvinists come up short is they have no answer as to how God could ordain everything and not be the author of sin.

While some of your accusations are true of hard determinists, I don't believe most modern day scholarly Calvinists hold to this view. Some Calvinists who speak of God decreeing all things that come to pass affirm that God has active and permissive decrees....meaning those things God accomplishes by his active agency and those things which he foreknows will certainly come to pass and doesn't hinder but permits/allows. This is actually consistent with the historical Arminian view of the origin of evil.

Now, I believe it can be shown that the compatibilistic view crumbles into hard determinism under scrutiny, but that doesn't change the belief of most Calvinists that God is not the author of sin...however "inconsistent" you or I might believe that belief to be. So, to label it "monstrous" is really not fair to all Calvinists.

 

[Van]

The truth will set us free. And certainly those Calvinists who do not believe God ordains, predestines whatsoever comes to pass do not really hold to the doctrine. I am not attacking individuals, I am saying Calvinism turns God into a monster, and many Calvinists deny that God ordaining whatsoever comes to pass requires that God is the author of sin.

It would be pretty simple for any Calvinist to say they do not believe God predestines everything. Lets wait and see. Boettner will not be one of them.

 

[Skandelon]

I don't take it personal.

I didn't say "take it personal," I said, "Don't MAKE it personal."

Say what you want about Van's arguments, but at least he attempts to stay on topic and (unless provoked) refrains from getting personal. That's all I'm requesting, just stay on topic. Attack his points, not him. And as our momma's used to say, "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all."

He just repeats his error over and over and over again. He doesn't engage in conversation. Just posts his error again. Go back and look at conversations. He says something(point A), somebody replies with another point. He just repeats his own point without addressing the opposing point. (or he misrepresents it like he just did again.

Then say that and move on, but to call names and attack him personally is against the rules and in bad form.

In my experience, when it appears someone is repeating themselves it is because they don't feel they are being heard or understood. Sometimes repeating in your own words what you think they have said and then rebutting it really helps the conversation move along.

 

[Van]

"There are two ways that things are ordained. First, what we usually refer as his "decrees" like creation. You also have things he has allowed to happen (i.e. sin). God ordained that he would allow a person to sin. While the person is sinning, God is using that for his own good. Think of the example of Joseph and his brothers. God allowed the brothers to sell Joseph. God could have stopped them, but didn't. Joseph going to Egypt was all part of God's plan."

This is a typical effort. Notice how God allows a person to sin, thus seeming to imply the person was not predestined to sin. But note the absence of saying "when God allows something, He has not predestined it." So close, but no cigar.

 

[jbh28]

"There are two ways that things are ordained. First, what we usually refer as his "decrees" like creation. You also have things he has allowed to happen (i.e. sin). God ordained that he would allow a person to sin. While the person is sinning, God is using that for his own good. Think of the example of Joseph and his brothers. God allowed the brothers to sell Joseph. God could have stopped them, but didn't. Joseph going to Egypt was all part of God's plan."

This is a typical effort. Notice how God allows a person to sin, thus seeming to imply the person was not predestined to sin. But note the absence of saying "when God allows something, He has not predestined it." So close, but no cigar.

No, I'm saying that it was predestined to happen because God allowed it to happen. The individual was the author of the sin. God ordained that the even would happen by allowing the person to sin. He could have stopped him if he wanted to.

 

[jbh28]

I didn't say "take it personal," I said, "Don't MAKE it personal."

Say what you want about Van's arguments, but at least he attempts to stay on topic and (unless provoked) refrains from getting personal. That's all I'm requesting, just stay on topic. Attack his points, not him.

Understand :thumbsup:

 

[Skandelon]

No, I'm saying that it was predestined to happen because God allowed it to happen.

So then is there any difference in the definition of the word "foreknow" and "predestine" in your view?

In my view,

Predestined means: Determine (an outcome or course of events) in advance by divine will.

Foreknown means: To know in advance what will happen and what will be determined by another.

To affirm foreknowledge of what someone else has determined is not equal to the predestination of that event.

God has actively predetermined some things (i.e. the authoring of scripture) and has foreknown and permitted other things (i.e. sinful acts of mankind). Surely we can all agree there is a distinction in those two things, right?

 

[jbh28]

God has actively predetermined some things (i.e. the authoring of scripture) and has foreknown and permitted other things (i.e. sinful acts of mankind). Surely we can all agree there is a distinction in those two things, right?

that sounds good. I like the word "actively" you put there. I say everything has been ordained. Some of it is active predetermination and others is permitted. Someone goes tomorrow and robs a bank, God didn't actively predetermine the event. It's evil. God did foreknow the event and ordained that the event would happen by allowing that event to happen.

 

[mandym]

Lets summarize. James 2:5 says God chose the poor to the world. This does not mean God chose the poor to the world because that takes the verse out of context. God remembers our sins no more. This does not mean God remembers our sins no more. It is a figure of speech. God chose the foolish in the world to shame the wise. No that one does not mean what it says either. God chose the weak in the world to shame the strong. No that really does not mean what it says. God chose what is low and despised in the world. No, no, no God could not possibly choose people for salvation when they were in the world, I do not care how many times God's inspired word says it. I can make any verse mean whatever I want, because scripture can only mean what my man-made doctrine says.

The posts all boil down to the same thing, a complete denial of the authority of scripture and revolt against scripture alone as our authority.

You know what, you are just playing a game. If I chose to I could play the same game.

"You add to the word of God by your eisegetical means therefore Only I can be right and you are refusing to understand exactly what it says. You are rebellious and deny what scripture says."

We could all play that game. But it has no value in debate. You are working to end debate over the intent of the James passage because you have no real answer. So you personally attack all who disagree with you. If you really want debate and discussion you would appreciate different response. But it appears you just want to be right and want everyone to agree with you. You really do not appear to understand the nature of debate and discussion. God Bless

 

[Winman]

Jbh28, I will show you from scripture that all things are not predestined, whether you are open to receive it.

1 Sam 9:10 Then said David, O LORD God of Israel, thy servant hath certainly heard that Saul seeketh to come to Keilah, to destroy the city for my sake. 11 Will the men of Keilah deliver me up into his hand? O LORD God of Israel, I beseech thee, tell thy servant. And the LORD said, He will come down. 12 Then said David, Will the men of Keilah deliver me and my men into the hand of Saul? And the LORD said, They will deliver thee up. 13 Then David and his men, which were about six hundred, arose and departed out of Keilah, and went whithersoever they could go. And it was told Saul that David was escaped from Keilah; and he forbear to go forth.

Do you see what happened here? God in his foreknowledge told David that Saul would come down to Keilah, and the men of Keilah would turn David and his men over to Saul.

But that didn't happen did it? No, because David fled the city. And when Saul heard, he did not come down to Keilah as God had said.

Was God mistaken? Did God lie? NO. God told David the truth, and this is what would have happened if David remained in Keilah. But David fled and changed everything.

The future is not set in stone, and God's foreknowledge does not equal predestination.

 

[Skandelon]

that sounds good. I like the word "actively" you put there. I say everything has been ordained. Some of it is active predetermination and others is permitted. Someone goes tomorrow and robs a bank, God didn't actively predetermine the event. It's evil. God did foreknow the event and ordained that the event would happen by allowing that event to happen.

Good, I'm glad we found some common ground. :thumbsup:

 

[jbh28]

Jbh28, I will show you from scripture that all things are not predestined, whether you are open to receive it.

1 Sam 9:10 Then said David, O LORD God of Israel, thy servant hath certainly heard that Saul seeketh to come to Keilah, to destroy the city for my sake. 11 Will the men of Keilah deliver me up into his hand? O LORD God of Israel, I beseech thee, tell thy servant. And the LORD said, He will come down. 12 Then said David, Will the men of Keilah deliver me and my men into the hand of Saul? And the LORD said, They will deliver thee up. 13 Then David and his men, which were about six hundred, arose and departed out of Keilah, and went whithersoever they could go. And it was told Saul that David was escaped from Keilah; and he forbear to go forth.

Do you see what happened here? God in his foreknowledge told David that Saul would come down to Keilah, and the men of Keilah would turn David and his men over to Saul.

But that didn't happen did it? No, because David fled the city. And when Saul heard, he did not come down to Keilah as God had said.

Was God mistaken? Did God lie? NO. God told David the truth, and this is what would have happened if David remained in Keilah. But David fled and changed everything.

The future is not set in stone, and God's foreknowledge does not equal predestination.

In our eyes, no. In God's eyes, yes. You admit that God didn't lie when he said something would happen and it didn't. You also seem to be saying that God knew of the actions that David would do. This doesn't mean that this change wasn't preordained to happen. Again, there are 2 types of predetermination. One is "active" the other is where God allows something to happen. He could have stopped it, but he allowed it to happen. He ordained the event. I'm not teaching that God actively ordained each event. In other words, I made a free choice to get on my computer and reply to you. This was ordained before the foundation of the world that I would reply, but yet I made the choice. You say that doesn't make sense? Well, of course! God's sovereignty vs man's free will is always a tough question. I just recognize that when my will goes against God's, God's always wins.

 

[Winman]

In our eyes, no. In God's eyes, yes. You admit that God didn't lie when he said something would happen and it didn't. You also seem to be saying that God knew of the actions that David would do. This doesn't mean that this change wasn't preordained to happen. Again, there are 2 types of predetermination. One is "active" the other is where God allows something to happen. He could have stopped it, but he allowed it to happen. He ordained the event. I'm not teaching that God actively ordained each event. In other words, I made a free choice to get on my computer and reply to you. This was ordained before the foundation of the world that I would reply, but yet I made the choice. You say that doesn't make sense? Well, of course! God's sovereignty vs man's free will is always a tough question. I just recognize that when my will goes against God's, God's always wins.

You say there are two kinds of predestination, exactly where is that said in scriptures?

I simply showed what the scriptures say, that God told David that Saul would come down to Keilah, but when Saul heard David escaped he did not come down.

I don't believe for one second that God lies or could ever be mistaken, if David would have remained in Keilah then Saul would have come down. After David escaped he had to reason to go there. This shows that events are not written in stone.

This to me clearly shows God's foreknowledge does not equal predestination. You cannot separate the two, but scripture does.

But, you always deny whatever refutes you system, I was fairly sure you would attempt to explain this away as well.

 

[Iconoclast]

You know what, you are just playing a game. If I chose to I could play the same game.

"You add to the word of God by your eisegetical means therefore Only I can be right and you are refusing to understand exactly what it says. You are rebellious and deny what scripture says."

We could all play that game. But it has no value in debate. You are working to end debate over the intent of the James passage because you have no real answer. So you personally attack all who disagree with you. If you really want debate and discussion you would appreciate different response. But it appears you just want to be right and want everyone to agree with you. You really do not appear to understand the nature of debate and discussion. God Bless

Well said....MM. We have some disagreements for sure, but what you post here is not one I would disagree with at all. Many have tried to express this concern, but we get told that it is a personal attack.....but you have seen through this facade.:thumbs:

Not to mention his definition of Foreknowledge being in error.:smilewinkgrin:

 

[jbh28]

You say there are two kinds of predestination, exactly where is that said in scriptures?

I simply showed what the scriptures say, that God told David that Saul would come down to Keilah, but when Saul heard David escaped he did not come down.

This to me clearly shows God's foreknowledge does not equal predestination. You cannot separate the two, but scripture does.

But, you always deny whatever refutes you system, I was fairly sure you would attempt to explain this away as well.

you didn't explain anything. The Bible is clear that God works everything after the council of his will. We also know we have choices. Unless you are going to attempt to say that God didn't know about the event when he told David what was going to happen, then this does nothing to the discussion. You like to take obscure passages and make them say something all the while denying other clear Scriptures.

I don't believe for one second that God lies or could ever be mistaken, if David would have remained in Keilah then Saul would have come down. After David escaped he had to reason to go there. This shows that events are not written in stone.

In David's eyes yes, in God's eyes no. God already knew what David would do. It was already ordained that David would be able to leave Keilah. God could have stopped David from being able to leave which would have allowed Saul to come. You are making an argument from silence here.

 

[Winman]

you didn't explain anything. The Bible is clear that God works everything after the council of his will. We also know we have choices. Unless you are going to attempt to say that God didn't know about the event when he told David what was going to happen, then this does nothing to the discussion. You like to take obscure passages and make them say something all the while denying other clear Scriptures.

In David's eyes yes, in God's eyes no. God already knew what David would do. It was already ordained that David would be able to leave Keilah. God could have stopped David from being able to leave which would have allowed Saul to come. You are making an argument from silence here.

It is you that adds to scripture. God clearly said Saul would come to Keilah, and the men of Keilah would give David and his men over to Saul. God didn't say he knew David would flee and Saul would change his mind and decide not to come to Keilah afterall. Not a word.

Anybody who thinks for a moment can discern that at the moment David questioned God, these are the events that would take place. God told him the absolute truth at that MOMENT. But when David fled, these foreseen events changed and so did God's foreknowledge. Until David fled, what God told him was true and was sure to take place.

You have been taught that God decrees or ordains all events that take place, but scripture shows man can alter these events. You might not like that, but this is exactly what this passage shows.

You insist God knew David would flee, but there is not a single word in scripture to support you, in fact, what is actually shown in scripture refutes your view. You must add to scripture what is not shown to support your doctrine. Not very wise IMHO.