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The Closed Theism of Calvinism
- Thread starter Van
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Skandelon
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Ok, but it does say he chose "US" (meaning believers) to be holy and adopted. This should not be understood as meaning God has chosen certain individuals to be saved. It is meant to say that before the foundation of the world God chose to make all believers holy and blameless and to adopt them into his family. He made that determination before the foundation of the world. There is nothing in this text that supports the idea of individual election to faith. Make sense?
What text explicitly denies it? Does God's question, "Where are you?" to Adam and Eve in the garden mean that God didn't really know where they are? When a parent asks a child, "Did you take that cookie," does it mean the parent really didn't know?
See my point? We can't know what God does and doesn't know or how it relates to His interaction with us. We just need to say it is a mystery and leave it alone, IMO... I believe it is just as wrong to presume he doesn't know as it is to presume that because He does know he must have predetermined it. Make sense?
Actually, there is scripture that supports Van's view.
Deut 4:37 And because he loved thy fathers, therefore he chose their seed after them, and brought thee out in his sight with his mighty power out of Egypt;
Acts 13:17 The God of this people of Israel chose our fathers, and exalted the people when they dwelt as strangers in the land of Egypt, and with an high arm brought he them out of it.
Deut 7:7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
All of these verses show God choosing the Jews in time.
Deut 4:37 And because he loved thy fathers, therefore he chose their seed after them, and brought thee out in his sight with his mighty power out of Egypt;
Acts 13:17 The God of this people of Israel chose our fathers, and exalted the people when they dwelt as strangers in the land of Egypt, and with an high arm brought he them out of it.
Deut 7:7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
All of these verses show God choosing the Jews in time.
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Easy, that is what the scriptures say.
Jam 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
You notice the KJB does not say "to be"? Yet people insist there is no difference between the KJB and the MVs that affects doctrine. Right.
1 Cor 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
Who God chose and why is not a mystery to me. God said he chose the foolish to confound the wise, the weak to confound the mighty, the things that are base and despised to bring to nought the noble, that no flesh should glory in his presence.
And notice they were "of the world". This shows them in time. To believe as you do, you would have to believe God elects a person to be foolish, weak, base, and despised before they are born.
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Lets try another approach....Whatever God knows He knows perfectly.......If He knows what we will do in the future, It can happen no other way. Since God created man knowing what we will do, the die is cast once we are created and in that sense God can be seen to determine all that comes to pass. Does anyone disagree with this?
I do not agree. I knew all of my children would absolutely sin before they were born, but it is not my will whatsoever that they sin.
God knowing we will sin does not mean he wills it. That would make the Ten Commandments nonsense. God never wants any man to sin.
Yes, In that model God determines everything making man nothing more than a robot doing whatever God has determined. You have left man with no free will. The word "determined" is too strong of a word. He knows everything that man will do but in his omniscience doesn't determine it, doesn't force it upon man. He, in his sovereignty, leaves man a free will, to call upon the name of the Lord, or not to call upon the name of the Lord. It is man's choice. God knows the choice man will make. But he does not determine it. Man makes his own decision.
I find these last few responses very interesting & I actually can see how one could deduce from Scripture all of them, DKH your understanding is very close to mine, except I hesitate to use the phrase “free will”, b/c I personally feel true freedom of the will would mean the ability to do absolutely anything/everything that the will desires without any outside limitations interfering upon that decision—b/c of this I have to ask---could you insert the phrase “human responsibility” in every place you used “free will” & still fully describe your understanding about the situation? I know it seems like a minor issue—but I’m just curious to see your response.
We all have responsibility both to God and to man. But when I consider Romans 1:18-32, and the progression of depravity that it describes I must ask myself what human responsibility did they have when they rejected God, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator. They chose to do that, and in the end paid the consequences for their choices.
Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. (Romans 1:32)
Thanks DHK, not at all saying that is the correct model, but with those assumptions in place I still maintain that God does determine what comes to pass. Simple foreknowledge of future free actions render the actions certain and they were then determined when the beings were created. This becomes terribly confusing and thus the appeal to mystery for those who hold the foreknowledge view. It cannot be completely reconciled logically. btw I agree it is mans choice.:love2:
Winman, remember in that model, the acts were described as future free acts. I see how you equated God determining with God willing.....also a problem with this model. Many people don't realize the apparent problems with it.:love2:
Oh I agree with what you just said—especially how you worded it--but I don’t see how what you just said demonstrates that the will is truly free in every aspect. Especially—the aspect of God needing to intervene & save them-- or make the first move to take them out of this depravity. Is man truly “free” to come to God anytime he wants, or must God make the first move on man? Ie—are there outside forces (ie the Holy Spirit) that must first move on the will (or within a man) before He can even recognize his need for God? I’m not saying man is not responsible to accept or reject God’s moving, I’m just asking can man truly find God simply by his own “free will”?
I believe the role of the Holy Spirit is to convict. As it says in John 16, And when he comes, he will convict the world of sin and of righteousness and of judgment.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.
It is through these two agencies that a person is saved. The gospel is presented. Man must have faith in the word of God, the gospel, that it is Christ who saves, and at the same time it must be the work of the Holy Spirit who is convicting him of sin to come to that place.
I believe that faith and repentance are two sides of the same coin and take place simultaneously. If one puts their faith in Christ, they are repenting. They are turning from a life of sin and turning to Christ simply by putting their faith in Christ. It is a new life that they are accepting by faith.
How do you determine something and not will it?
Because I knew my children would sin does not mean I determined it.
On the other hand, if I were to say I determined my children would sin, not only would it imply I was willing they should sin, but it would also imply that I directly took action to insure they would sin.
You can't say God determines and decrees all things that take place and then say God does not cause sin. That is a contradiction and is impossible to be true.
And this is what amazes me most about Calvinism. To be a Calvinist, you must believe that contradictions are true. Calvinism prides itself on logic, and yet it is utterly illogical.
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