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The Closed Theism of Calvinism
- Thread starter Van
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:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:
You make such a good point!!!! But I’m a man of my word! So I’ll just have to sit back & watch this thread & not attack—besides you & everyone else seem 2 b doin just fine without me!
I'm not looking to debate Van because he has proven to be one that just repeats himself and never addresses his opponents points. I'm currently just curious if he really believes that omniscience means God's the author of sin, or if I just read him incorrectly.
So we are agreed, Calvinism actually is hyper Calvinism, but hides its exhaustive determination beliefs in mumbo jumbo. Foreordained but not predestined. Whatsoever comes to pass, but not the author of sin. Closed Theism turns God into a monster. Since God is not a monster, then QED, Closed Theism is the monster. 
So the Question is why do so many Calvinists not know that they actually believe in partially open theism? Do they not want to be accused of "flirting" with Open Theism.
So the Question is why do so many Calvinists not know that they actually believe in partially open theism? Do they not want to be accused of "flirting" with Open Theism.
Yeah—last time I made that point—they shut the thread down—so I’d like to see 4 myself as well!
No
there are two types
Foreordained because God wanted it to happen and is the author of the event (creation)
Foreordained because God allowed it to happen.
Correct, God isn't the author of sin
God can do what he wants and is no monster.
Don't believe in open theism. God doesn't change nor learn. Again, you keep showing us a false dichotomy.So the Question is why do so many Calvinists not know that they actually believe in partially open theism? Do they not want to be accused of "flirting" with Open Theism.
btw, were you saying that complete knowledge of future events means that God is the author of sin?
Luke said it.
Yes, I was asking about this thread. thanks though. Of course I don't believe God is the author of sin.
I know if its off topic---but I haven’t seen you in a while Amy—I hope all is well with my Gen 6 buddy!
And Lord help us—if Luke makes an appearance in this thread—oh my---even I will feel sorry for Van!
Predestination in an active, causal sense is different than foreordination in a permissive sense. God either permits or causes anything that comes to pass. The choice of words is immaterial; the context determines the meaning. I have explained my distinction conceptually. Don't get hung up on semantics.
I can't help but wonder how you would address the Trinity with this brand of logic.
Oops. Yes I know you don't believe that. Even though I don't claim the name of Calvinist, I think you and I agree on most things.
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So we are agreed, Calvinism actually is hyper Calvinism, but hides its exhaustive determination beliefs in mumbo jumbo. Foreordained but not predestined. Whatsoever comes to pass, but not the author of sin. Closed Theism turns God into a monster. Since God is not a monster, then QED, Closed Theism is the monster.
So the Question is why do so many Calvinists not know that they actually believe in partially open theism? Do they not want to be accused of "flirting" with Open Theism.
I prefer not to flirt with false doctrine. I would use a stronger term, but BB doesn't allow the use of the word.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Van,
Help me understand something. Are you attempting to argue that divine omniscience does necessitate this so called monstrous closed theism? Or are you attempting to argue that those who wrongly equate divine omniscience with predetermination are exhaustive determinists and closed theists who make God into the author of sin?
Help me understand something. Are you attempting to argue that divine omniscience does necessitate this so called monstrous closed theism? Or are you attempting to argue that those who wrongly equate divine omniscience with predetermination are exhaustive determinists and closed theists who make God into the author of sin?
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Jbh, I agree with this, but I have some questions to follow up on this line of reasoning.
The evil intent entering the mind of the sinner is an "event" that happens. For example, when Satan first thought, "I want to be like God," that was an event that God "allowed." Right?
Now, if he merely allowed it then are you saying that Satan originated that sinful thought/intent/desire? If so, did God come to know of it through his divine foreknowledge so as the event itself (in time) informed God of that intent? Or did God always know of the intent? Did Satan's evil intent eternally exist within the mind of God and thus originate in God's mind, or did Satan originate it and inform God of that intent?
Do you understand my question?
Thousand Hills
Active Member
Isaiah 59 - NKJV
1 Behold, the LORD’s hand is not shortened,That it cannot save; Nor His ear heavy,That it cannot hear. 2 But your iniquities have separated you from your God; And your sins have hidden His face from you, So that He will not hear. 3 For your hands are defiled with blood, And your fingers with iniquity; Your lips have spoken lies, Your tongue has muttered perversity. 4 No one calls for justice, Nor does any plead for truth. They trust in empty words and speak lies; They conceive evil and bring forth iniquity. 5 They hatch vipers’ eggs and weave the spider’s web; He who eats of their eggs dies, And from that which is crushed a viper breaks out. 6 Their webs will not become garments, Nor will they cover themselves with their works; Their works are works of iniquity, And the act of violence is in their hands. 7 Their feet run to evil, And they make haste to shed innocent blood; Their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity; Wasting and destruction are in their paths. 8 The way of peace they have not known, And there is no justice in their ways; They have made themselves crooked paths; Whoever takes that way shall not know peace.9 Therefore justice is far from us, Nor does righteousness overtake us; We look for light, but there is darkness! For brightness, but we walk in blackness! 10 We grope for the wall like the blind, And we grope as if we had no eyes; We stumble at noonday as at twilight; We are as dead men in desolate places. 11 We all growl like bears, And moan sadly like doves;We look for justice, but there is none; For salvation, but it is far from us.12 For our transgressions are multiplied before You, And our sins testify against us; For our transgressions are with us, And as for our iniquities, we know them: 13 In transgressing and lying against the LORD, And departing from our God, Speaking oppression and revolt, Conceiving and uttering from the heart words of falsehood. 14 Justice is turned back, And righteousness stands afar off; For truth is fallen in the street, And equity cannot enter. 15 So truth fails, And he who departs from evil makes himself a prey.Then the LORD saw it, and it displeased Him That there was no justice. 16 He saw that there was no man, And wondered that there was no intercessor;Therefore His own arm brought salvation for Him; And His own righteousness, it sustained Him. 17 For He put on righteousness as a breastplate, And a helmet of salvation on His head; He put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, And was clad with zeal as a cloak. 18 According to their deeds, accordingly He will repay, Fury to His adversaries, Recompense to His enemies; The coastlands He will fully repay. 19 So shall they fear The name of the LORD from the west, And His glory from the rising of the sun; When the enemy comes in like a flood, The Spirit of the LORD will lift up a standard against him. 20 “ The Redeemer will come to Zion, And to those who turn from transgression in Jacob,” Says the LORD. 21 “As for Me,” says the LORD, “this is My covenant with them: My Spirit who is upon you, and My words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your descendants, nor from the mouth of yourdescendants’ descendants,” says the LORD, “from this time and forevermore.”
Just thought after 6 Pages, this thread could use some actual scripture. :godisgood:
1 Behold, the LORD’s hand is not shortened,That it cannot save; Nor His ear heavy,That it cannot hear. 2 But your iniquities have separated you from your God; And your sins have hidden His face from you, So that He will not hear. 3 For your hands are defiled with blood, And your fingers with iniquity; Your lips have spoken lies, Your tongue has muttered perversity. 4 No one calls for justice, Nor does any plead for truth. They trust in empty words and speak lies; They conceive evil and bring forth iniquity. 5 They hatch vipers’ eggs and weave the spider’s web; He who eats of their eggs dies, And from that which is crushed a viper breaks out. 6 Their webs will not become garments, Nor will they cover themselves with their works; Their works are works of iniquity, And the act of violence is in their hands. 7 Their feet run to evil, And they make haste to shed innocent blood; Their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity; Wasting and destruction are in their paths. 8 The way of peace they have not known, And there is no justice in their ways; They have made themselves crooked paths; Whoever takes that way shall not know peace.9 Therefore justice is far from us, Nor does righteousness overtake us; We look for light, but there is darkness! For brightness, but we walk in blackness! 10 We grope for the wall like the blind, And we grope as if we had no eyes; We stumble at noonday as at twilight; We are as dead men in desolate places. 11 We all growl like bears, And moan sadly like doves;We look for justice, but there is none; For salvation, but it is far from us.12 For our transgressions are multiplied before You, And our sins testify against us; For our transgressions are with us, And as for our iniquities, we know them: 13 In transgressing and lying against the LORD, And departing from our God, Speaking oppression and revolt, Conceiving and uttering from the heart words of falsehood. 14 Justice is turned back, And righteousness stands afar off; For truth is fallen in the street, And equity cannot enter. 15 So truth fails, And he who departs from evil makes himself a prey.Then the LORD saw it, and it displeased Him That there was no justice. 16 He saw that there was no man, And wondered that there was no intercessor;Therefore His own arm brought salvation for Him; And His own righteousness, it sustained Him. 17 For He put on righteousness as a breastplate, And a helmet of salvation on His head; He put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, And was clad with zeal as a cloak. 18 According to their deeds, accordingly He will repay, Fury to His adversaries, Recompense to His enemies; The coastlands He will fully repay. 19 So shall they fear The name of the LORD from the west, And His glory from the rising of the sun; When the enemy comes in like a flood, The Spirit of the LORD will lift up a standard against him. 20 “ The Redeemer will come to Zion, And to those who turn from transgression in Jacob,” Says the LORD. 21 “As for Me,” says the LORD, “this is My covenant with them: My Spirit who is upon you, and My words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your descendants, nor from the mouth of yourdescendants’ descendants,” says the LORD, “from this time and forevermore.”
Just thought after 6 Pages, this thread could use some actual scripture. :godisgood:
yes
God always knew.
yes
God always knew of it. In other words, when I sin, God knew I was going to sin before I sinned. God didn't make me sin. I decided to sin(makes me the author of my sin). God preordained that I would sin and this was accomplished by allowing me to sin.
think so
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
So you do not believe that God is informed through foreknowledge of man's evil intent at any given "time" but that the knowledge of the evil intent eternally existed in the mind of God, right?yesGod always knew.
yes
In other words, when I sin, God knew I was going to sin before I sinned. God didn't make me sin. I decided to sin(makes me the author of my sin). God preordained that I would sin and this was accomplished by allowing me to sin.
You don't believe that something that eternally exists in the mind of God necessitates that God originated it?
God knows everything and has always known everything...
What do you mean by "originated it."
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
The origin of something is, "the point at which something comes into existence or from which it derives." So, if sin "originated" in Satan at that point in time when he first thought "I want to become like God," then that intent didn't exist prior to that moment.
Now, some argue that only God can create and thus even this evil intent had to be originated/created by God.
But, if you are right (and I believe you are on this point) that Satan created/originated the evil intent then the question is how did God come to know of it. He could have be informed of it through foreknowledge...in that he was informed by Satan of Satan's intent. But, many deny that God could ever be informed by a created being.
So, what is left is that the evil intent eternally existed in the mind of God. If that is the case then how did it not originate in the mind of God?
It boils down to this question: How does the origin of the intent to do evil preexist the originator of that intent?
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