The connection between: Loving Jesus—Obedience—Eternal Life

[Samuels]

Just to remind you of the verse you are responding to:
'For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you"' (Heb. 13:5).
The promise is God's to Joshua (Deuteronomy 31:8; Joshua 1:5).
So you are saying that the verse really means, "I may very well leave you or forsake you."
Is that your interpretation?
So do you believe therefore that the indwelling of the Spirit is in fact totally ineffective?

Foist of oil, let's not focus on the OT.
There are enough problems (for many/most) just with the NT.

God promised this to one of His extremely special people (not you)!

Would anyone but you postulate that:
"the indwelling of the Spirit is in fact totally ineffective"?

No need for an answer.

 

[Samuels]

But God says, "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep my judgements and do them" (Ezekiel 36:26-27), and also
'"But this is the covenant that I will make with them after those days," says the Lord: "I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them." Then He adds, "Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more"' (Hebrews 10:16-17).

3 things:
1) This was promised to the Jews, i.e. Messianic believers. Just sayin'.
2) The NT doesn't promise everyone who has the indwelling Holy Spirit
that He will "cause you to walk in My statutes".
3) Perhaps, He does promise this to His elect (chosen ones)
who were chosen before the foundation of the world.

I know the above is tough, but I will go with the 100+ NT warnings,
and the several which actually warn believers of LOSING eternal life.

How do you like John 14, where Jesus says:
IF you obey My commands, My Father and I will come to you
(in the form of "allos/another" of us, the Holy Spirit),
and make Our home with you.
If this is perceived correctly, it surely is very selective,
and hints of the Spirit leaving upon disobedience.
Hebrews 3 warns: disobedience proves unbelief.
Perhaps the toughest verse in all of the NT. Wow!

 

[JonShaff]

3 things:
1) This was promised to the Jews, i.e. Messianic believers.
2) The NT doesn't promise everyone who has the indwelling Holy Spirit
that He will "cause you to walk in My statutes".
3) Perhaps, He does promise this to His elect (chosen ones)
who were chosen before the foundation of the world.

I know the above is tough, but I will go with the 100+ NT warnings,
and the several which actually warn believers of LOSING eternal life.

How often have you lost your salvation? How often do you think about losing your salvation?

Let's clear some things up.

A. Salvation is of the Lord...it's a Position Before God, not an inanimate object like car keys

B. Eternal Life is ONLY in Christ, once again, not an inanimate object like car keys

 

[Samuels]

Let's clear some things up.

Okay, a gift may be ignored, rejected, thrown away in a dumpster somewhere, etc.

We are not forced to receive God's precious free gift of grace through faith!

We may be given that little seed of faith enabling us to INITIALLY believe,
but this belief-faith must continue until death for us to receive eternal life!

I am not a zombie or a robot.
I have free-will ... freely given by God Themselves!
I actually can CHOOSE to co-operate with God, or not.

C'mon, let's get with God's Program.

 

[JonShaff]

Okay, a gift may be ignored, rejected, thrown away in a dumpster somewhere, etc.

We are not forced to receive God's precious free gift of grace through faith!

We may be given that little seed of faith enabling us to INITIALLY believe,
but this belief-faith must continue until death for us to receive eternal life!

I am not a zombie or a robot.
I have free-will ... freely given by God Themselves!
C'mon, let's get with God's Program.

Right, so you really never answered my questions or addressed my statements.

How often have you lost your salvation? How often do you think about losing your salvation?

And i agree, Faith must Continue until we die...but lets see what the scriptures teach...

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

what say ye?

 

[Samuels]

what say ye?

I say that I have done my best to help you on your way,
and I wish you nothing but the best.
Please try your best to be OPEN to new spiritual Truth.
God bless!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Foist of oil, let's not focus on the OT.
There are enough problems (for many/most) just with the NT.

The last time I looked, Hebrews 13:5 was in the New Testament.

God promised this to one of His extremely special people (not you)!

The writer to the Hebrews applies this promise to all true Christians (note the qualifier).

Would anyone but you postulate that:
"the indwelling of the Spirit is in fact totally ineffective"?

No need for an answer.

I am very happy to give an answer. If your interpretation of Hebrews 13:5 is that God may very well leave or forsake His own people then you are teaching that the Holy Spirit is totally ineffective.

3 things:
1) This [the promise of Hebrews 13:5] was promised to the Jews, i.e. Messianic believers. Just sayin'.

Your aversion to the O.T. is noted. As I have explained, the writer to the Hebrews applies it to all his readers (ie. us).

2) The NT doesn't promise everyone who has the indwelling Holy Spirit
that He will "cause you to walk in My statutes".

I think you'll find it does. 1 John 3:9 (which I pointed out to you in a previous thread and you ignored). 'Whoever has been born of God does not [continually] sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot [continually] sin because he has been born of God.' As explained before, the Present Tense in Greek denotes continuity. The text cannot mean sinless perfection because of 1 John 1:8-10. You may add to this Hebrews 10:16 which was also mentioned earlier and ignored by you.
3) Perhaps, He does promise this to His elect (chosen ones)
who were chosen before the foundation of the world. [/QUOTE]
That is exactly whom He does promise this to. They are called Christians.

I know the above is tough,

Tough for you, but clear to everyone else.

but I will go with the 100+ NT warnings,
and the several which actually warn believers of LOSING eternal life.

OK, let's go with one of these, which again I quoted earlier and you blithely ignored.
Matthew 7:21-23. I can't be bothered to write it out for you again. Look it up! To those who say, "Lord, Lord!" but do not obey His commands (cf. Luke 6:46), our Lord will say, I never knew you!" Not, "I knew you once and then forgot about you." Carnal Christians, those who declare themselves to have 'accepted Christ' (yuk!) but have never repented of their sins are not Christians at all. But those who have their eyes opened by the Spirit to see themselves as lost sinners, who turn away from their sins and put their trust solely in Christ and in His finished work on the cross are His and His forever. Such a person's sins are forgiven, not just in the past, but in the future as well (1 John 1:9).

How do you like John 14, where Jesus says:
IF you obey My commands, My Father and I will come to you
(in the form of "allos/another" of us, the Holy Spirit),
and make Our home with you.
If this is perceived correctly, it surely is very selective,
and hints of the Spirit leaving upon disobedience.

Sheesh! You can't even quote the Scriptures correctly! John 14:23. "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come and make our home with him." The whole thing is predicated on love. If anyone loves Christ, it is because God has loved him first (1 John 4:19). Once we understand what God has done for us in Christ, how can we not love Him? How can we not long to serve and obey Him? And if God loves us enough to send the Lord Jesus to suffer and die for us, how will He possibly abandon us? 'he who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?' (Romans 8:32).

Hebrews 3 warns: disobedience proves unbelief.
Perhaps the toughest verse in all of the NT. Wow!

Once again, you speak about a verse, but don't say which one it is. I suppose that you mean Hebrews 3:18-19, which is two verses. There is no problem. If someone is consistently disobeying God's commandments, it is a sign that he has not truly repented and trusted in Christ. He was never a Christian.

 

[Samuels]

OK, let's go with one of these, which again I quoted earlier and you blithely ignored.
Matthew 7:21-23. I can't be bothered to write it out for you again. Look it up! To those who say, "Lord, Lord!" but do not obey His commands (cf. Luke 6:46), our Lord will say, I never knew you!"

You left out the most important part (in 7:21) ...
Jesus is talking about those who did not do the will of Father God in heaven.
Even those who have done miracles will be excluded, if they fail the red test.

With this rebuke, I'm finished with you.

Yes, I'm with Paul who said, "Why do you hate me for telling you the truth?"

 

[annsni]

I say that I have done my best to help you on your way,
and I wish you nothing but the best.
Please try your best to be OPEN to new spiritual Truth.
God bless!

OK - "new spiritual truth" is a key term here. This is new. It is not Biblical. Scripture does not support the idea that we must work for our salvation. Salvation is of the Lord. I will stand before God and be able to say as Greg Gilbert said in his book What is the Gospel:

“When we stand before God at the judgment, what do you plan to do or say in order to convince Him to count you righteous and admit you to all the blessings of His kingdom? ... [What could we possibly] hold up before Him and say ‘God, on account of this justify me!’

“ I’ll tell you what every Christian whose faith is in Christ alone will do, by God’s grace. They will simply and quietly point to Jesus... ‘ O God, do not look for any righteousness in my own life, but look at your Son. Do not count me righteous because of anything I’ve done or am. Count me righteous because of Jesus. He lived the life I should have lived. He died the death I deserve. I have renounced all other trusts, my plea is Him alone. Justify me O God because of Jesus.” (adapted from “What is the Gospel” p.83)

 

[Samuels]

OK - "new spiritual truth" is a key term here. This is new. It is not Biblical.
Scripture does not support the idea that we must work for our salvation.
Salvation is of the Lord.

We are all supposed to be growing in our faith, grace, knowledge, etc.
That means occasionally some new spiritual Truth is revealed to us.

Salvation is of the Lord ... from beginning to end
... beginning with His free gift of grace through faith.
The faith He gives to us so we can believe.

The indwelling Holy Spirit tries His very best
... to lead us, guide us, teach us, etc.
But, we have been given the God-given free-will to refuse!

All throughout the Bible, we read how God works:
God will only work in co-operation with us!
(Exception: in Jesus' creation and sustaining.)
God and man both have a part to play in man's salvation!
E.G. Man has to appreciate what God has done for him
enough to love Him and obey His commandments (John 14).

Then we get into failure, and the remedy: repentance.
Confession/Repentance (continuing present tense) activates
Jesus' precious blood to wash away our new sins (1 John 1:7-9).
This is part of "practicing righteousness" ...
to keep us continually righteous! (1 John 3:7).

 

[annsni]

We are all supposed to be growing in our faith, grace, knowledge, etc.
That means occasionally some new spiritual Truth is revealed to us.

Why are you capitalizing "truth"? Is this a person that you speak of?

Salvation is of the Lord ... from beginning to end
... beginning with His free gift of grace through faith.
The faith He gives to us so we can believe.

This is as far as you needed to go but you didn't.

The indwelling Holy Spirit tries His very best
... to lead us, guide us, teach us, etc.
But, we have been given the God-given free-will to refuse!

So the Holy Spirit tries His very best and fails?

All throughout the Bible, we read how God works:
God will only work in co-operation with us!
(Exception: in Jesus' creation and sustaining.)
God and man both have a part to play in man's salvation!
E.G. Man has to appreciate what God has done for him
enough to love Him and obey His commandments (John 14).

Then we get into failure, and the remedy: repentance.
Confession/Repentance (continuing present tense) activates
Jesus' precious blood to wash away our new sins (1 John 1:7-9).
This is part of "practicing righteousness" ...
to keep us continually righteous! (1 John 3:7).

If man has a part in salvation, it is his own work that saves him and there is NOTHING in Scripture that even remotely alludes to that. Salvation is through faith - a gift of God - so no one may boast. If salvation is due to my work, then I can boast that it is MINE because I did it - yet again, Scripture says nothing of the sort. At.all.

 

[Samuels]

Why are you capitalizing "truth"? Is this a person that you speak of?

So the Holy Spirit tries His very best and fails?

If man has a part in salvation, it is his own work that saves him and there is NOTHING in Scripture that even remotely alludes to that. Salvation is through faith - a gift of God - so no one may boast. If salvation is due to my work, then I can boast that it is MINE because I did it - yet again, Scripture says nothing of the sort. At.all.

Caps on Truth because it is so critical.

Don't you understand what free will is?
Lots of places in the NT talks about the testing of our faith.
Not all born-again believers pass the tests.

All of the many dire warnings in the NT are there
to help believers walk the narrow path unto eternal life.

Okay, since you don't believe in the co-operation bit,
you must believe we are robots with no free-will.
Can't you see it?

 

[annsni]

Caps on Truth because it is so critical.

Don't you understand what free will is?
Lots of places in the NT talks about the testing of our faith.
Not all born-again believers pass the tests.

All of the many dire warnings in the NT are there
to help believers walk the narrow path unto eternal life.

Okay, since you don't believe in the co-operation bit,
you must believe we are robots with no free-will.
Can't you see it?

At what point was the prodigal son no longer his father's son?

 

[Yeshua1]

Okay, a gift may be ignored, rejected, thrown away in a dumpster somewhere, etc.

We are not forced to receive God's precious free gift of grace through faith!

We may be given that little seed of faith enabling us to INITIALLY believe,
but this belief-faith must continue until death for us to receive eternal life!

I am not a zombie or a robot.
I have free-will ... freely given by God Themselves!
I actually can CHOOSE to co-operate with God, or not.

C'mon, let's get with God's Program.

Paul stated to us that RIGHT NOW we have eternal life in us, as did John...
Hebrews nd Jude stated that life cannot evr be lost again.
Jesus confirmed that NONE his will ever be lost!
Your are teaching another/false Gospel!

 

[Yeshua1]

You left out the most important part (in 7:21) ...
Jesus is talking about those who did not do the will of Father God in heaven.
Even those who have done miracles will be excluded, if they fail the red test.

With this rebuke, I'm finished with you.

Yes, I'm with Paul who said, "Why do you hate me for telling you the truth?"

Jesus was talking about those he never knew, were always lot/unsaved.. They failed to do the will of God, to believe unto Jesus for salvation!. Is that clear enough for you?

 

[Yeshua1]

OK - "new spiritual truth" is a key term here. This is new. It is not Biblical. Scripture does not support the idea that we must work for our salvation. Salvation is of the Lord. I will stand before God and be able to say as Greg Gilbert said in his book What is the Gospel:

“When we stand before God at the judgment, what do you plan to do or say in order to convince Him to count you righteous and admit you to all the blessings of His kingdom? ... [What could we possibly] hold up before Him and say ‘God, on account of this justify me!’

“ I’ll tell you what every Christian whose faith is in Christ alone will do, by God’s grace. They will simply and quietly point to Jesus... ‘ O God, do not look for any righteousness in my own life, but look at your Son. Do not count me righteous because of anything I’ve done or am. Count me righteous because of Jesus. He lived the life I should have lived. He died the death I deserve. I have renounced all other trusts, my plea is Him alone. Justify me O God because of Jesus.” (adapted from “What is the Gospel” p.83)

Samuel is a Charasmatic, so he MUST be gettngthis "new spiritual truth" from somewhere other than the Bible, and its not from the Holy Spirit!

 

[Yeshua1]

Caps on Truth because it is so critical.

Don't you understand what free will is?
Lots of places in the NT talks about the testing of our faith.
Not all born-again believers pass the tests.

All of the many dire warnings in the NT are there
to help believers walk the narrow path unto eternal life.

Okay, since you don't believe in the co-operation bit,
you must believe we are robots with no free-will.
Can't you see it?

Who gvae your this so called spiritual truth, for its not from the Bible nor the Holy Spirit!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

You left out the most important part (in 7:21) ...
Jesus is talking about those who did not do the will of Father God in heaven.
Even those who have done miracles will be excluded, if they fail the red test.

I included verse 21 in my citation, you half-wit! Why can you not deal with the text? "I never knew you!" There is no question of Christ abandoning His own people whom He has loved from the foundation of the world (Jeremiah 31:3; Matthew 25:34).

With this rebuke, I'm finished with you.
Yes, I'm with Paul who said, "Why do you hate me for telling you the truth?"

I don't hate you; I merely find you exasperating. And you don't tell the truth. Unfortunately you are not prepared to engage in discussion, only to trot out your wretched Pelagianism.

 

[Yeshua1]

3 things:
1) This was promised to the Jews, i.e. Messianic believers. Just sayin'.
2) The NT doesn't promise everyone who has the indwelling Holy Spirit
that He will "cause you to walk in My statutes".
3) Perhaps, He does promise this to His elect (chosen ones)
who were chosen before the foundation of the world.

I know the above is tough, but I will go with the 100+ NT warnings,
and the several which actually warn believers of LOSING eternal life.

How do you like John 14, where Jesus says:
IF you obey My commands, My Father and I will come to you
(in the form of "allos/another" of us, the Holy Spirit),
and make Our home with you.
If this is perceived correctly, it surely is very selective,
and hints of the Spirit leaving upon disobedience.
Hebrews 3 warns: disobedience proves unbelief.
Perhaps the toughest verse in all of the NT. Wow!

The prophet was speaking towards those under the New Covenant, who would have the Spirit and the Law in their hearts now!

Both spiritual Israel and the Church!

 

[Samuels]

Anyone who has been listening to the indwelling Spirit
as he/she reads the NT has been hearing that ...
obedience is part and parcel of true saving faith.
Those of you who are not believers hate to read this
and resort to calling me names. Shame on you.

You believe only the John 3:16 type of verses,
which Jesus uses to catch the little fishes ...
who are floundering around in a lost condition.
Then, He and the Father via the Holy Spirit
(try to) teach them that there's more to it
than simply believing!

Jesus came to release the captives of sin.
Some people are enabled to overcome sin by being
given a new nature and the indwelling Holy Spirit.

E.G. there are about 10 NT verses for each of
the following, which are required for eternal life:
-- doing God's will (includes a lot of things)
-- obedience to Jesus' commands
-- no habitual (unrepentant) sinning
-- practicing righteousness
-- endurance in the faith until the end of life

Many don't see these spiritual truths in the NT
for a variety of reasons, but mostly due to false biases.

Christian forums are filled with people who are
desperately fighting to hang onto their pleasing
"grace-only without accountability" salvation.
They belong to the Laodicean church (Rev 3).
And I'm supposed to consider them my brothers?