That post is the answer re-read it. Maybe check out post 211 it might helpeth thy understanding.
It has been answered.
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The Context of the Parenthesis Church
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That post is the answer re-read it. Maybe check out post 211 it might helpeth thy understanding.
It has been answered.
Typo Non-vegetarian.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Properly and thankfully by DHK! But I believe blessed wife 318 had made the same point earlier. You boys just could not accept it!
I gave you the answer the first time you asked me. Who received the payment for mankind's sin made by Jesus on the Cross?
You answer that and that is who receives the payment for the redemption of the earth.
You never wanted to answer that question.
Understand that you are opposing an antagonist/s that have no intention of allowing an actual discussion to take place. They are going to come in, muddy the waters, and talk about everything...except the points being raised.
Maintain control of the situation and force the issues they run from.
Their corruption of the discussion of the redemption of the earth shows without question they refuse to acknowledge something as simple as the earth awaiting redemption, They create false arguments, most of which are based on an inability to comprehend what has been said, and despite what you have said, their understanding is the false premise they work off of.
Post 200 does a good job dealing with this issue, but unfortunately, you are dealing with a rather slothful lot. When their posts are longer than a few syllables, it is usually because they have copy and pasted someone else's works, someone else's beliefs, someone else's faith.
It is sad that we have people who simply latch on to someone else's beliefs and claim them for their own. There is no intention of coming to a better understanding of Scripture, and in fact their goal is to make sure no-one else can, thus do they disrupt, deflect, and defame.
What this shows is a tendency to embrace whatever one is exposed to. Throw someone in with any group and after too long, if they are not someone who takes initiative in seeking out truth...they will be one of that group, defending the doctrine vehemently, and reviling any who do not conform as they do.
Keep up the good work and don't let them play the shell game with you, lol. Bring a singular focus and it will have results, even if it means they begin ignoring you, which means, much to the dismay of some of our more zealous antagonists...you are freed up to teach sound doctrine without the interruptions they might want to impose in every thread.
God bless.
No, I don't I don't believe that.
Jesus paid everything at the cross. There was nothing left to pay. The rest is a matter of time--just like we wait for the redemption of our bodies, we also wait for the restoration of the earth, and eventually the resurrection of "the dead," and their judgment.
The purpose of the Tribulation is two-fold:
It is a pouring out of God's wrath upon the ungodly of this world.
But more importantly it is a fulfillment of the many OT promises when Christ comes to defeat the enemies of the Jews, and at that time, as a nation, they will turn to their Messiah. It is then the Battle of Armeggedon will be fought, and there they will be saved. They will then be ready to enter into the Millennial Kingdom as prophesied throughout the many OT scriptures. This is what has been referred to as "The Great Day of the Lord."
We see though as Romans 8 says, 22 "For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now."
As we see the 3 things in the Law under the terms of redemption the price must be met as the 7 seals on the for lack of a better term mortgage document are unsealed. That is what we see in Revelation 6 the unsealing of the terms of redemption for the lost possession. These seals being opened bring forth the judgments of Revelation and Revelation 6:17 says God's wrath has come. The meeting of the Terms of Redemption is God's wrath being poured out upon the mankind and the earth. To regain the lost possession.
Christ blood we are that He became the propitiation for sin, 1st John 2:2 "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."
So by your belief the sins of the whole world means that in some way the earth sinned?
Or are the sins of whole world the sins of all mankind?
The Greek word is Kosmos just as we see in John 3:16.
Which has several meaning including the world or the universe, but it can also mean the inhabitants of the earth. John 3:26 and 1st John 2:2 are nearly always seen as kosmos meaning all of mankind. So how do you apply it?
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
By DHK! And earlier by blessed wife 318!
There was only one "Fall," one "Curse" which contained many facets:
Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Gen 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Gen 3:20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
The primary consequence of the curse upon Adam was the curse on the earth. Now the earth would bring forth thorns and thistles as it never had before. The harmony of nature would turn against Adam. This is all part of the curse, the result of Adam's sin.
Just as Adam waits for the redemption of his body, the earth also waits for its redemption. That is precisely what it says in Romans 8. God's creation is waiting for the coming of the Son of God. At that time it will be restored to its previous state.
Even the whole creation groans and travails in pain until now.
Why?
Because of Adam's sin.
But when Christ comes that curse shall be removed. It has nothing to do with any of the seals.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Looks like they don't want to listen to DHK. Of course I disagree with his remarks as they relate to dispensationalism but He is supremely correct that Jesus Christ paid it all on the cross. I believe you had made that point after the initial claim that the Tribulation redeemed the earth!
Yes I did and we have been going round and round ever since. 200+ post now of trying to nail down if the Cross is sufficient or not. It is amazing how much of eschatology is bleeding into soteriology. When I was 12 and started studying eschatology I looked at it very much as an independent aspect, but the older I'm getting and the more I have studies not just eschatology but theology in general I realize how they all do bleed into each other. That leads me to say that if your eschatology starts messing with core doctrines like the sufficiency of Christ atoning work on the cross then maybe it's time to step back and examine your eschatology in light of those core doctrines.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
You are correct. It is sad that so much time was spent defending the indefensible and in effect denying the finished work of Jesus Christ. If my memory is correct you used that very statement "It Is Finished" in your rebuttal of their claim!
I did and it was ignored. Oh well I will say it has been an enlightening couple of says.
Let's look at a few more scriptures,
1st Corinthians 5: 7 "Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
Does the us connote the World that is the Earth?
Ephesians 5:1-2, 1 "Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour."
He gave Himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God, does this connote that He gave Himself for mankind and the earth?
Hebrews 9: 26 "For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself."
This behoves the question did the earth sin? Does the earth continue to sin or is it under the curse as the Lost possession of mankind?
Hebrews 10: 12 "But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Again He offered the one sacrifice for sin whose sin was it offered for, 1st John 2:2 says it was the sin of all mankind.
The lost possession stills requires a payment.
Look at like this:
Leviticus 25:23-25,
23 "The land shall not be sold for ever: for the land is mine, for ye are strangers and sojourners with me.
24 And in all the land of your possession ye shall grant a redemption for the land.
25 If thy brother be waxen poor, and hath sold away some of his possession, and if any of his kin come to redeem it, then shall he redeem that which his brother sold."
A man could be redeemed, different conditions of His redemption were given.
Leviticus 25:39-41,
39 "And if thy brother that dwelleth by thee be waxen poor, and be sold unto thee; thou shalt not compel him to serve as a bondservant:
40 But as an hired servant, and as a sojourner, he shall be with thee, and shall serve thee unto the year of jubile.
41 And then shall he depart from thee, both he and his children with him, and shall return unto his own family, and unto the possession of his fathers shall he return."
Leviticus 25:48-50,
48 "After that he is sold he may be redeemed again; one of his brethren may redeem him:
49 Either his uncle, or his uncle's son, may redeem him, or any that is nigh of kin unto him of his family may redeem him; or if he be able, he may redeem himself.
50 And he shall reckon with him that bought him from the year that he was sold to him unto the year of jubile: and the price of his sale shall be according unto the number of years, according to the time of an hired servant shall it be with him."
The redemption of the man required on payment for His redemption, the redemption of the possession, the land was an entirely different price.
the Jewish practice:
One scroll or book was used. The terms of the redemption was written on both sides within and without. When the scroll was rolled into a tube and sealed with the seven seals, the inside corresponded to the secret record and the outside containing the terms for the public and especially the near kinsman redeemer.
The earth has to be redeemed under the terms laid out in the Scroll or little book that we see in Revelation 5. Those terms are the judgment of Gods wrath poured out during the Tribulation.
It was not ignored but answered. Post number 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by blessedwife318 View Post
"Thats a Nice Calvinist reading, which I do consider my self a Calvinist, part of the reason I have been studying Covenant Theology a bit more
Although I would say that everything was paid for on the Cross. You know "It Is Finished" and all that. Besides as I said if anyone is paying the price it is the earth itself considering everything that happens to the earth during the tribulation."
My response:
"The work of man's redemption is complete, it is Finished. But Paul says, Romans 8:22 "For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now." The earth itself is groaning under the curse, all of creation too must be redeemed."
Let me ask you this to maybe shine some light on the subject. Who has possession of the earth now? Who is the earth being redeemed from?
All you have done in the above post is beg the question and circular reasoning.
You start with the premises that the earth STILL needs to be redeemed without showing from whom it needs to be redeemed, who is in control if the earth.
Your argument can be summed up this way, the earth needs to be redeemed because their are scrolls and their are scrolls because the earth needs to be redeemed.
And also you have never attempted to answer the question WHY does the earth have to redeem itself? Because there is no way you can make the argument that someone else is paying the price when you look at the earthquake, hail, heat, darkness etc that the earth endures.
All you have done in the above post is beg the question and circular reasoning.
You start with the premises that the earth STILL needs to be redeemed without showing from whom it needs to be redeemed, who is in control if the earth.
Your argument can be summed up this way, the earth needs to be redeemed because their are scrolls and their are scrolls because the earth needs to be redeemed.
And also you have never attempted to answer the question WHY does the earth have to redeem itself? Because there is no way you can make the argument that someone else is paying the price when you look at the earthquake, hail, heat, darkness etc that the earth endures.
I believe I answered that somewhere here too but let me answer again, Ephesians 2:1-3
1"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."
So who is the Prince and Power of the Air who is right setting the course of this world, everyone I know says it is satan. We also see Revelation 12:7 "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven."
Satan will be confined to the earth that is at the midway point of the Tribulation.
Why does it need to be redeemed,
Genesis 3:17-18.
17 "And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;"
Not only was the ground cursed, deserts, waste, barren lands would appear to be under the curse. All the vegetation is under the same curse. Thorns and thistles, weeds begin to spring up.
Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
All this is covered in post 200
So the Satan is the ruler if this world, in your opinion just to make sure I understand right.
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