Featured The Context of the Parenthesis Church

blessedwife318 · May 10, 2015

revmwc said: ↑

But the earth has yet to be redeemed from the curse. The animals on this earth are still groaning under the curse. The earth itself is groaning under the curse Romans 8:22 "For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now." These too must be redeemed. For Christ is the perfect redeemer.
Every realm that came under the curse of Adam’s sin. It must also be redeemed by the Last Adam. Adam was placed in headship over the earth. When Adam fell he did not fall alone, he fell as the head of this earth. He fell as the head of the animals. Through his sin the curse fell upon all that had been placed under him. Everything was under his authority. Adam was created and given dominion over the earth and all that was on it and in it. Being given dominion means he was the leader or head over creation. He was the father of mankind and all nations. Because of his sin the whole earth fell under the curse. The whole human race fell under the curse. Every human being is born with an old sin nature therefore all are sinners and all are The soil of this earth too is under the curse, God said it was look at Genesis 3:17-18.
17And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; Not only was the ground cursed, deserts, waste, barren lands would appear to be under the curse. All the vegetation is under the same curse. Thorns and thistles, weeds begin to spring up. All as a result of the corruption of their nature. All of which was brought on by the curse. Not only were the vegetables and minerals affected by the curse, so too were the animals, all were under the curse. Genesis 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
CONTD
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Thats a Nice Calvinist reading, which I do consider my self a Calvinist, part of the reason I have been studying Covenant Theology a bit more
Although I would say that everything was paid for on the Cross. You know "It Is Finished" and all that. Besides as I said if anyone is paying the price it is the earth itself considering everything that happens to the earth during the tribulation.

blessedwife318 · May 10, 2015

OldRegular said: ↑

Where in the world did you get the idea that the Tribulation is the price paid for the redemption of the earth. That is absolute utter nonsense and heretical in my opinion! Jesus Christ paid the the price on the Cross for the Redemption for everything that will be redeemed.
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I would agree with this as well.

Iconoclast · May 10, 2015

blessedwife318 [QUOTE said:

I have never seen it done and beleive me I read a bunch of books defending the Pre-trib view. To get to that point you have to start with the pre-trib framework and fill in Scripture according to that framework.
For example Pre-tribbers love to point out John being called into heaven as begin the Rapture then they make an argument from silence that the church is not mentioned in Revelation until chapter 20. You then have to make Saints mean something else besides church, even though in the rest of the NT Saints refers to the church.
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You are exactly correct B318...this is one of the teachings that started to erode my confidence in some of the premill guides I was first being taught by....

You show quite correctly that any believer is called to be a saint..... Under the guise of "rightly dividing the word"...many will actually divide the scripture until it is hardly coherent if you follow their leading:laugh:

they try and get around it several different ways...they invent different kinds of saints:laugh: he is a regular church age saint, this other guy is a tribulation saint,the 144000 become jewish evangelists,...you need a scorecard to keep up with it:wavey:

Examples: To all those in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Rom 1:17

And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. Rom 8:27

Contribute to the needs of the saints and seek to show hospitality. Rom 12:13

Here is Saints being used in Revelation:

And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. Rev 5:8

And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne, Rev 8:3

Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation, Rev 13:7

If anyone is to be taken captive, to captivity he goes; if anyone is to be slain with the sword, with the sword must he be slain. Here is a call for the endurance and faith of the saints. Rev 13:10

Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. Rev 14:20

And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. When I saw her, I marveled greatly. Rev 17:6

Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you saints and apostles and prophets, for God has given judgment for you against her!” Rev 18:20

Those are just a few examples of Saints being used in Rev. In order for the pre-trib view to work you have to read a different meaning into Saint in Revelation then you would in any other book of the NT.
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nicely done...

I am not and A-Millennialist.
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I

I am in between postmill and amill for now....even historic premill makes more sense that the dispy premill.

do believe in the literal 1000 year reign of Christ
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,

every believer believes in the 1000 yr reign, some think the thousand yrs is a metaphor for the full duration of the reign of Jesus before the last day.
So they believe in a literal reign with a symbolic number for the full amount of time. Some saints who were put to death are still reigning In Christ now in heaven and it has been more than a physical 1000 yr period.

I have read where many early church people believed Jesus was literally speaking of the first 1000 yrs after the ascencion, so then when it went past that, they reconsidered the issue.:thumbsup:

and I do see the Rapture and Return as two distinct events.
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I believe it is the last day...jn 6

I just don't believe your brand of Pre-millennialism.
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The original premill view was run out of town....so now you get those who say, oh wait....I do not believe what you say, and they give OR. grief, but he is giving the original position...

The parenthesis was taught.....that when Israel rejected Jesus....they were put on hold.....until the fullness of the gentiles be come in.

blessedwife318 · May 10, 2015

Iconoclast said: ↑

The parenthesis was taught.....that when Israel rejected Jesus....they were put on hold.....until the fullness of the gentiles be come in.
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That is what I was taught at my Dispensational Bible College. I really should look into the difference between historical pre-mill and dispensational pre-mill.

OldRegular · May 10, 2015

blessedwife318 said: ↑

For example Pre-tribbers love to point out John being called into heaven as begin the Rapture then they make an argument from silence that the church is not mentioned in Revelation until chapter 20. You then have to make Saints mean something else besides church, even though in the rest of the NT Saints refers to the church.
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Following are some comments I have posted before but they are worth reading again in my opinion.

There is a common argument given for the pretribulation rapture of the Church that I believe is worth discussing at this time. The argument is made that because the words Church or Churches do not appear after the completion of the third chapter of the Revelation, the Church cannot be present during the events described in the succeeding chapters. The word Churches is used eleven times in Chapters 1-3, the word Church is used seven times in these same chapters. The word Church or Churches does not appear again until Chapter 22, Verse 16. However, the term Saints is used in Revelation 5:8; 8:3, 4; 11:18; 13:7, 10; 14:12; 15:3; 16:6; 17:6; 18:24; 19:8; and 20:9. The term redeemed is used in Revelation 5:9 and 14:3, 4. Both of these terms are characteristic of the Church, the Body and Bride of Jesus Christ when found elsewhere in the New Testament [Steve Gregg,Revelstion, Four Views,page 87]. The appearance of the Churches again in Chapter 22, Verse 16 and the succeeding verse is interesting and informative.

Revelation 22:16,17, KJV
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star.
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Notice two things,

1. Jesus sent His angel to testify of these things in the Churches, and
2. The Spirit and the Bride, the Church, give the invitation to come and take of the water of life freely.

These are strange statements to make if the Church is inconsequential during much of the period covered in Revelation; is gone during the tribulation period, and Jesus Christ rules with a ‘rod of iron’ during the millennium.

Now we examine the appearance of the words Israel or Jew in the Book of Revelation. The word Israel appears three times in the Book of Revelation, Chapters 2, 7, and 21; the word Jews appears only twice, Chapters 2 and 3, and there the reference is to false Jews. So we see that a reference to Israel appears only once during that part of the Book that is presumed to represent ‘the seven year tribulation’ and ‘Jacob’s time of trouble’. The first time the word Israel is used [2:14] the reference is to the false prophet Balaam and his role in the seduction of Israel enroute to the promise land. In Chapter 7 the name Israel is used in the discussion of the servants of God who are sealed. The next occasion [21:12] the name is used in the description of the New Jerusalem, the Church, the Bride of Jesus Christ. Again, Israel is referred to only one time, and no reference is made to the Jews, during that period in which it is claimed that the Church is absent. Strange indeed is the absence of the words Jew or Israel in the 16 chapters of Revelation written specifically, according to dispensational theology, for them while in the remainder of the New Testament the words Jew or Jews occur 188 times and the words Israel or Israelite occur 73 times.

It is interesting to note that there are other books in the New Testament where the words church or churches are not used. The words do not appear in the Gospels of Mark, Luke, and John. If one believes that the Church was not established until Pentecost, that is not necessarily unusual. It is interesting, however, that the book that many dispensationalists claim is the Gospel of the Kingdom [written by a Jewish believer who collected taxes for Rome] is the Gospel in which the Church is first proclaimed. The words church or churches are not mentioned in 1st & 2nd Peter, 1st & 2nd John, and Jude. Can we then argue the absence of the Church? The words are also absent from the first 15 chapters of Romans and occur only twice in Hebrews.

To show that the absence or presence of a word is not decisive consider the Book of Esther in the Old Testament. The editor of the Thompson Chain Reference Bible notes:

The name of God does not appear in the book, while a heathen king is referred to over 150 times. There is no allusion to prayer or spiritual service of any kind with the possible exception of fasting.
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Does this absence of reference to God mean that He was absent or that the book of Esther should not be in the Canon? Obviously not. The book of Esther was written to show God’s watch care over His Covenant people through whom He would bring the Saviour into the world.

In conclusion, there are books in the New Testament in which the words church or churches are not mentioned. Therefore, the absence of the word church in Chapters 4-19 of the book of Revelation is scant justification to claim that the Church is absent during the period covered by these chapters. However, I believe the best argument against a pretribulation “Rapture” is contained in the proper interpretation of John 5:28,29.

Alan Johnson writing in the Expositors Bible Commentary, Volume 12, page 461 explains the absence of the word ‘church’ as follows: “the word church or churches always stands in Revelation for the historic seven churches in Asia and not for the universal body of Christ. Since 4:2-22:15 concerns the believing community as a whole, it would be inappropriate at least for John’s usage to find the narrower term ‘church’ in this section.

Walvoord, page 279 of {i]Major Bible Prophecies[/i], writes:

In the entirety of Revelation 4-18, no mention of the church on earth is found. Instead believers are referred to as believing Gentiles or believing Jews but never as the church. The total absence of any reference to the church is difficult to explain unless the pretribulationists are correct that the church is in heaven and not on earth during this period.
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However, as noted previously the word Jew is not mentioned in Chapters 4-19. The word Israel is mentioned only one time [Revelation 7:4]. The word Gentile is mentioned only one time [Revelation 11:2]. The word “redeemed” occurs only three times, one [Revelation 5:9] referring to the redeemed in Heaven, the remaining two in reference to the 144,000 on Mt Zion [Revelation 14:3, 4]. The word Saints occurs 13 times. Therefore, Walvoord’s statement that believers are referred to as believing Gentiles or believing Jews is not correct. In fact the words believer, believing, believe, or belief do not occur in the Book of Revelation.
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Iconoclast · May 10, 2015

blessedwife318 said: ↑

That is what I was taught at my Dispensational Bible College. I really should look into the difference between historical pre-mill and dispensational pre-mill.
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Covenant theologians see God's covenant as over-riding all of it.

There is ONE BODY......the language of the Covenant is everywhere , OT NT...

I will be to you a God...you shall be to me a people.

There were saints before Israel was a physical nation, there were saints when Israel was a theocracy, there are saints in the new Christian Israel of God.:thumbsup:

blessedwife318 · May 10, 2015

OldRegular said: ↑

Following are some comments I have posted before but they are worth reading again in my opinion.
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You know I had never thought about the fact that the silence argument could be used as a double edged sword.

Another thought I have always had is how often do you mention someone in a letter after establishing who you are talking to. When I was emailing my husband back when we were online dating, I didn't use his name every other sentence. I probably only used it once in the entire letter, at the beginning. I've also always thought it was strange that Revelation is clearly written to the Churches yet according to pre-tribbers there is nothing in it that the church needs to know since they will not be here. I know they would argue that it is written for the 'tribulation saints' but they are not addressed, the church is what is addressed.

OldRegular · May 10, 2015

blessedwife318 said: ↑

You know I had never thought about the fact that the silence argument could be used as a double edged sword.

Another thought I have always had is how often do you mention someone in a letter after establishing who you are talking to. When I was emailing my husband back when we were online dating, I didn't use his name every other sentence. I probably only used it once in the entire letter, at the beginning. I've also always thought it was strange that Revelation is clearly written to the Churches yet according to pre-tribbers there is nothing in it that the church needs to know since they will not be here. I know they would argue that it is written for the 'tribulation saints' but they are not addressed, the church is what is addressed.
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You make a most important point. I believe that the Book of Revelation was written as a Book of Comfort and Victory for the early Church and it is a Book of Comfort and Victory for the Church today. Given some of the events pictured in Revelation we might ask how this book could Comfort those undergoing severe persecution. But the book shows GOD's judgment on those in opposition to HIM and the final Victory is to the Saints through Jesus Christ.

If we look at the Old Testament we see where GOD may use a nation/people to chasten Israel but we then see GOD's subsequent judgment on the nation/people, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, and those nations are no more. In Daniel I believe we are shown GOD's judgment on these nations as well as the Roman Empire. The judgment on the Roman Empire for their persecution of the Church did not occur until 300 years or so after the death of Jesus Christ but they were judged.

Jesus Christ promised the Saints that they would suffer persecution/tribulation:

John 16:33. These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

But HE also promised:

Hebrews 13:5. Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

OldRegular · May 10, 2015

Iconoclast said: ↑

Covenant theologians see God's covenant as over-riding all of it.

There is ONE BODY......the language of the Covenant is everywhere , OT NT...

I will be to you a God...you shall be to me a people.

There were saints before Israel was a physical nation, there were saints when Israel was a theocracy, there are saints in the new Christian Israel of God.:thumbsup:
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It is significant that the initial promise of the Redeemer is made in Genesis 3:15. The initial display of the Grace of GOD is also shown in Genesis 3 when HE shed the first blood to make a covering, an atonement, for the rebellion of Adam and Eve!

Iconoclast · May 10, 2015

OldRegular said: ↑

It is significant that the initial promise of the Redeemer is made in Genesis 3:15. The initial display of the Grace of GOD is also shown in Genesis 3 when HE shed the first blood to make a covering, an atonement, for the rebellion of Adam and Eve!
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Yes...this is how God began to reveal His eternal purpose to man...

notice the angel speaks of it as an accomplished fact at the incarnation;

revmwc · May 10, 2015

blessedwife318 said: ↑

Thats a Nice Calvinist reading, which I do consider my self a Calvinist, part of the reason I have been studying Covenant Theology a bit more
Although I would say that everything was paid for on the Cross. You know "It Is Finished" and all that. Besides as I said if anyone is paying the price it is the earth itself considering everything that happens to the earth during the tribulation.
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The work of man's redemption is complete, it is Finished. But Paul says, Romans 8:22 "For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now." The earth itself is groaning under the curse, all of creation too must be redeemed.

revmwc · May 10, 2015

revmwc said: ↑

The work of man's redemption is complete, it is Finished. But Paul says, Romans 8:22 "For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now." The earth itself is groaning under the curse, all of creation too must be redeemed.
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21" Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body."

That happens when God's wrath is poured out in the Tribulation. Followed by the 1000 year reign that is "the glorious liberty of the children of God." The believers will be kept from that wrath Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10.

revmwc · May 10, 2015

revmwc said: ↑

But the earth has yet to be redeemed from the curse. The animals on this earth are still groaning under the curse. The earth itself is groaning under the curse Romans 8:22 "For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now." These too must be redeemed. For Christ is the perfect redeemer.
Every realm that came under the curse of Adam’s sin. It must also be redeemed by the Last Adam. Adam was placed in headship over the earth. When Adam fell he did not fall alone, he fell as the head of this earth. He fell as the head of the animals. Through his sin the curse fell upon all that had been placed under him. Everything was under his authority. Adam was created and given dominion over the earth and all that was on it and in it. Being given dominion means he was the leader or head over creation. He was the father of mankind and all nations. Because of his sin the whole earth fell under the curse. The whole human race fell under the curse. Every human being is born with an old sin nature therefore all are sinners and all are The soil of this earth too is under the curse, God said it was look at Genesis 3:17-18.
17"And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; Not only was the ground cursed, deserts, waste, barren lands would appear to be under the curse. All the vegetation is under the same curse. Thorns and thistles, weeds begin to spring up. All as a result of the corruption of their nature. All of which was brought on by the curse. Not only were the vegetables and minerals affected by the curse, so too were the animals, all were under the curse. Genesis 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:"
CONTD
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Christ came to redeem all that Adam lost and He is a perfect redeemer a complete redeemer. He is the second and Last Adam. He will bring deliverance to every thing that came under Adam’s curse. He will redeem the earth. The desert shall blossom like the rose. He will redeem the vegetables. Isaiah 35:7 "And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water: in the habitation of dragons, where each lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes. Isaiah 11:6-9 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. 7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea." The redeemer will bring the Redemption of Creation. Adam lost dominion over the earth, man must battle the forces of the curse that has affected nature. Fight the weeds, thistles, insects, storms, droughts and floods. After the flood animals begin to prey upon one another. Death, groaning and destruction are everywhere. Adam lost his inheritance, but God provided a plan of redemption whereby all that Adam lost will be redeemed. All this is contained in the little book that is in the hand of the one on the throne. The little book we see in Revelation Chapter 5. The seven sealed book which contains the terms on which Adam’s lost estate may be redeemed.

OldRegular · May 10, 2015

revmwc said: ↑

Christ came to redeem all that Adam lost and He is a perfect redeemer a complete redeemer. He is the second and Last Adam. He will bring deliverance to every thing that came under Adam’s curse. He will redeem the earth. The desert shall blossom like the rose. He will redeem the vegetables. Isaiah 35:7 "And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water: in the habitation of dragons, where each lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes. Isaiah 11:6-9 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. 7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea." The redeemer will bring the Redemption of Creation. Adam lost dominion over the earth, man must battle the forces of the curse that has affected nature. Fight the weeds, thistles, insects, storms, droughts and floods. After the flood animals begin to prey upon one another. Death, groaning and destruction are everywhere. Adam lost his inheritance, but God provided a plan of redemption whereby all that Adam lost will be redeemed. All this is contained in the little book that is in the hand of the one on the throne. The little book we see in Revelation Chapter 5. The seven sealed book which contains the terms on which Adam’s lost estate may be redeemed.
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I thought the Grrreaaat Tribulation was the price paid to redee the earth!

revmwc said: ↑

I guess most don't realize Christ must redeem all of creation and the Tribulation period is that price being paid. He came first to redeem mankind. Before Hr returns He must redeem the earth for the Kingdom.
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To whom was the price paid. Who was bought off by the Great Tribulation!

revmwc · May 10, 2015

OldRegular said: ↑

I thought the Grrreaaat Tribulation was the price paid to redee the earth!

To whom was the price paid. Who was bought off by the Great Tribulation!
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The curse is paid off by the Tribulation. The curse on all creation. The terms of the scroll of redemption as we see in Leviticus as the unholy trinity reigns for the last 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation. Isaiah shows us the Kingdom where creation is restored.
Isaiah 11:6-9 "The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. 7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea."

OldRegular · May 10, 2015

revmwc said: ↑

21" Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body."

That happens when God's wrath is poured out in the Tribulation. Followed by the 1000 year reign that is "the glorious liberty of the children of God." The believers will be kept from that wrath Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10.
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Still nonsense. The so-called Grreaat Tribulation and the 1000 year reign, which we are now enjoying, have nothing to do with the renewal of the earth and that passage from Romans!

OldRegular · May 10, 2015

revmwc said: ↑

The curse is paid off by the Tribulation.
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Who received payment for the second time?

Earth Wind and Fire · May 11, 2015

OldRegular said: ↑

Still nonsense. The so-called Grreaat Tribulation and the 1000 year reign, which we are now enjoying, have nothing to do with the renewal of the earth and that passage from Romans!
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I get it ....they don't believe that God is reining now so they create this elaborate story to feel better about themselves....that they will get sucked up into the stratious sphere while the rest suffer some form of puragatory:tear:

Darrell C · May 11, 2015

OldRegular said: ↑

Take your own advice DC without getting snotty with "blessedwife318"!
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Well, seeing that you are the master in this area, perhaps I should give that some thought, lol.

Truth is, I commend her for her reaction to having her chain yanked, lol.

You, on the other hand, are constantly ugly towards people, and one thing I have found is that you like to dish it out, but you don't like the leftovers.

God bless.

Darrell C · May 11, 2015

Earth said: ↑

Punk....:smilewinkgrin:
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That's me.

A snotty punk...

But, at least I don't make the Scriptures my personal guessing ground.

At least I can present what I believe with the Scriptural presentation which shows why I believe it.

By the way, those taken die. Those left enter the Kingdom.

Both happen when the Lord returns.

That didn't happen in the First Century.

God bless.

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