Featured The Context of the Parenthesis Church

"When" it will happen has two issues involved, (1) the actual date (i.e., 6/6/16), and (2) it's placement in the Prophetic calendar.

I have never set the former, but the latter I take a dogmatic view which is the only view that harmonizes with all Prophecy that is yet to be fulfilled.

?

What does that have to do with examining Scripture and drawing conclusions?

This isn't another board, it is this one, lol. Focus on the discussion at hand instead of letting bias from past discussions influence this one. I'm not the ones you talked to before, and my views are not theirs. That is like saying your views must be identical to everybody else I have spoken with.

Was the context one of contrast? Today's martyr rate will be small in comparison to the events and death in Revelation:


Revelation 6:8

King James Version (KJV)

8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.


Revelation 9:15

King James Version (KJV)

15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.


Even if we view the first quote as meaning a specific region, rather than men in general, we see, at this point, the latter indicates a third of mankind dying.

Roughly several hundreds of millions of people.

If the first quote refers to men, the combined total refers to half the earth's population, which is nearly 4 billion people dying within the space of a few years.

God does not minimize the death of saints, nor should we, so if the context was one of trivializing those dying today, that is shameful, however...

...it has nothing to do with progressing in the discussion or our growth in understanding Biblical Prophecy.

Some stupid stuff comes out of people's mouths/minds sometimes. WEejust need to ignore that, at least to the extent that it stays in File 13.

Which may be one of the problems. God can teach us better than men. We need to be in the Books of the Bible, not books about the Bible, which all carry the particular theology of the man/men.

You are in error.

Some of us look at theological views and test them to the measure of Scripture. I am a Skeptic, plain and simple. I don't take anyone's word for anything.

And I'll pause there because you raise a good point in the next section.


Continued...

 

Yea you are a snotty punk & I will add your a drama queen! :laugh:

Yes of course, your opinion.....you know what opinions are like......:smilewinkgrin:

Anyway, I can debate you till the cows come but why waste my time....your into it too hot and heavy into this Dispy stuff ....others have already stressed my understand which is primarily amill so why should I bother, you have dismissed my beliefs for the most part anyway.

All you really hold to is your own interpretations which are, I will state again, best guesses & opinions. But the thing is so odious to me anyway is your deliberate insistence on being right. All Ive ever seen out of your understanding, is a deeply imbedded fear base.....you have to strive to be worthy or else you wont get into heaven. The fact is: Jesus is reigning right now. When He ascended up into heaven, He sat down at the right hand of the Father, which is a picture of His great authority. In Psalm 110:1, David writes, “The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.” Here, David the King was prophesying of the King of Kings and the super reign He shall have.

One last thing brother then I am done here & Ive mentioned it before: That Kingdom is going on right now. Luke 17:21, “Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.”

God bless!

 

Not all of us are dogmatic about John 4. I will say that seeing this as marking the Rapture prior to events makes just as much sense as viewing the letters to Churches, who are called specifically Churches, as an overview of the history of the Church, Laodicea being the final state of affairs and the generation in need of warning.

But I am not dogmatic on that view either.

Instead of debating with those you have talked to in the past, try to argue the points being raised now.

But this a good point you bring up, and worthy of discussion.

The term describes those who believe:


Revelation 14:12

King James Version (KJV)

12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.


Here the "wife" has made herself ready:


Revelation 19:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.


And here...


Revelation 21:9-10

King James Version (KJV)

9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,


...when John is shown the Bride, the Lamb's Wife...

...where is she?

And within the context of the Epistle, meaning that the exhortation and warnings going forth with a pending fulfillment, we see...


Revelation 22:17

King James Version (KJV)

17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.


The invitation to come is given by the Spirit and the Bride, which is the Lamb's Wife. Not the Spirit and the Saints, but the Spirit and the Bride.

The Bride, therefore, can be seen as a fulfilled state of the Saints, whereas in the use of the term Saints, this is universal of all believers regardless of race.

Like I said, it's a great point, but it does not show the Church in the Tribulation.

When the Churches are addressed, they are called by name, yet when the Tribulation begins there is no mention of the Church.

Example:

Revelation 2

King James Version (KJV)

1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;


When the Book begins, John is specific:


Revelation 1:4

King James Version (KJV)

4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;


When the letter ends...


Revelation 22:16

King James Version (KJV)

16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.


Yet not one time is the Church, or a Church mentioned within the events.

But, Israel and Gentiles are:


Revelation 11

King James Version (KJV)

1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.



Revelation 7:4

King James Version (KJV)

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.



So why, after addressing specifically the Church, to whom the revelation is given...do we not see the Church named in the events?

Those of Israel above are sealed and without question believers. But they are not called the Church. Between 3:23 and 22:15 the word ekklesia does not appear once.

Called saints, yes, but not the Church.

"Saints" are "holy ones," and it is said here...


Revelation 22:11

King James Version (KJV)

11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.


While I take the view that those in the Tribulation are just as much Christians as we in this Age are, we can't ignore the blatant lack of reference to the Church in specificity. I don't think we need, as some, to create two peoples of God because of this, because again, the bottom line that those that are sanctified in the Tribulation become part of the Church.

However, those of Israel are specifically identified by Tribe, and it is Israel, not the Church, which is preserved in the Wilderness:


Revelation 12:6

King James Version (KJV)

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.


So we consider that there is a reason why those of Israel who are preserved here are identified with Israel rather than the Church. The imagery of Ch.12 speaks of Israel, not the Church. And while they will be part of the Church, they are not identified as the Church here, but rather, those saved out of Israel.


Continued...

 

Amen & AMEN :godisgood:

 

That is not an answer.

You say you are pre-millennial yet that is not what is presented. All I see is "I just don't know."

If you are pre-millennial, you should be able to answer the question, which when you do, will force you to start considering the issue in a deeper sense.

How does the use of a general term for believer address the timing of the Rapture?

It doesn't.

You have answered nothing, and cannot even answer what kind of pre-millennial you are. And you say you have studied this for twenty years.

It seems as though you are A-Mil. And given the fact that you asppport those who are -mil, and ridicule those that are pre-trib, that is the only conclusion that makes sense.

So having refused to address this point...you go on to answer a question with a question:

They are martyrs:


Revelation 6:9-11

King James Version (KJV)

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


And if you will notice they are generally described, and told to wait until Martyrdom ends, and seeing that this is within the timeline of events of the Tribulation, it is reasonable to conclude that the martyrs yet to die will die in the Tribulation.

Now see specific detail given to these:


Revelation 7:9-14

King James Version (KJV)

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


Again, we see specific distinction given to believers of Israel (vv.3-8) and those of the Gentiles. In view are Martyrs, and it is just my personal opinion this speaks of the same group in both chapters.

Believers. Called Saints, not the Church. They are of course the Church, as all who have believed will be, but the distinction given in this Book should not be overlooked.


Continued...

 

I don't think you even know what you are. You will not give a definitive statement as to when you believe the Rapture will take place. You say you believe there will be a Rapture, but have no idea when it takes place.

You support those who constantly attack the Pre-Trib view and it's adherents, and leave me with no conclusion but that you are a closet a-mil.

Are you sure about that?

So I ask again, if there is a thousand year reign, when is the Rapture?

After the Millennial Kingdom?

You're not Post, You're not Pre...so when does the event Paul describes take place?

So when does the Rapture take place.

We know when the Return takes place...at the end of the Tribulation. And Revelation 19 makes it clear this occurs before the Kingdom is established.

Great, but you offer no "brand" of your own.

So why do you ridicule my "brand" when you have no clue when the Rapture takes place?

I haven't done that.

I do think this world will last about seven thousand years...but that is not date setting.

And interject it whether it is relevant or not? At least show how the person set a date.

Which is all irrelevant to the Rapture.

I ask again...who populates the Millennial Kingdom.


God bless.

 

It is clear who you seek to glorify with your constant spamming.


God bless.

 

So you deny that the Promises of God extend through the Covenants?

The "New Christian Israel of God?"

Could you supply Scripture that speaks about this New Christian Israel?


God bless.

 

Well, Tony the Tiger, it's not so hard to see redemption coming from Daniel's Seventieth Week:


Daniel 9:24

King James Version (KJV)

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.


Daniel 12:9-11

King James Version (KJV)

9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.



Go, and learn what that meaneth.

The Tribulation is defined by Daniel, and what it will accomplish is the reclaiming of the world by God.

Pretty basic concept.


God bless.

 

This is just too funny.

Think about it, lol.


God bless.

 

Great response.

We do keep in mind that redemption still awaits the redemption of our bodies, which, like the regeneration the earth sees after the Tribulation, plays an important part and is an important element in Redemption as a whole.


God bless.

 

Consider:


Revelation 16:18-20

King James Version (KJV)

18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.


This is just an example of the "payment" that is to come.


God bless.

 

Maybe if you spent a little time in a good, Bible believing and teaching Independent Baptist Church you would discover just how much w believe that the Lord God of Heaven is Sovereign.

That is why we can debate these issues and others, well, they have to resort to attacking people.

And if you look at the use of harpazo, you will see it is used in a context twice where there is no doubt where the destination is...with God in Heaven.


God bless.

 

Been called worse.

It's not an opinion.

This...


Revelation 19:11-16

King James Version (KJV)

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.


...did not take place in the First Century.

And if you can get your head out of Catholic perversion of texts you might begin to let that simple truth sink in, and the ramifications that has on Biblical Prophecy.

Well, sometimes they resemble well supported conclusions drawn from study of the Word of God.

And then sometimes they resemble the fluff you offer.

You would do better sticking with debating the cows. When they come in, they will listen to the nonsense you spout and will not disagree with you.

Because you might learn something? Grow a little?

Get out of that rut you are in?

It's not Dispensational, it is Biblical.

Because you need to be ready to give an answer to any which asks the reason of the hope that is within you...that's why.

Not react with emotional response.

That's why atheism is flourishing...because the Body of Christ has become slothful.

Still doing that, by the way, in case you're not noticing.

That can be said, however, when you can address the points and point out the error...feel free to do so.

There's a secret to "always being right:" don't go around saying stupid stuff.

Don't go around speaking about things you have been too lazy to study that you might have an informed position about.

It's really simple, my friend.

You have a creative imagination. Most of our interaction has been about whether people should go to Church or not.

If you would like to give an example of my fear, please do, lol. If you do not, you will be shown as someone who simply makes up stupid stuff because he cannot participate functionally in a doctrinal discussion.

Clearly you have never read my dealings with the L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachers).

Salvation is eternal, and there is only way for one to be saved eternally, that is through Grace alone by faith alone through Christ alone.

I am consistent in my teaching that there is nothing that man can do which can remedy his separation from Sovereign God.

Salvation is wholly the Work of Holy God.

No-one has denied the Lord reigns in His People, but what you and you a-mil brethren do not understand is that Satan is currently the god of this earth and that, my friend, is what the Tribulation will bring to a close.

It is at that time we will see this...


Revelation 19:11-16

King James Version (KJV)

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.


...fulfilled.

I just don't take a Catholic or Jehovah's Witness approach Bible Prophecy.

No kidding?

No kidding?

Sorry, no, the Promises of God to Israel will be fulfilled when the Millennial Kingdom is established.

You can read about this in Matthew 24-25, by the way, if you would like to begin a study of what Scripture actually teaches.

So we nullify everything else? lol

Simply amazing.

You do realize that Revelation was written after this statement, right? Christ spoke after this.

God bless.

 

That is the Promise of the Lord, yet many neglect time in the Word with the Lord.

We have to get into the Books of the Bible, not books about the Bible.

While commentaries and books about the Bible are helpful when we first begin to grow in understanding, there should come a point in all of our lives when we can of ourselves understand Scripture and interpret it's intended meanings.


God bless.

 

The refusal by you and "rm" to answer a simple question raised doubt as to that assertion. You and "rm: say God is the author of the Grreaat Tribulation. You and "rm: say the Grreaat Tribulation is payment for the redemption of the Earth. I ask: to whom is payment made and get SILENCE or senseless semantics!

You might also answer a second question in light of your above claim: Is the Lord God of Heaven reigning NOW?

 

I've hear of OR Nurses but OR Cheerleaders?

Too funny.


God bless.