The Context of the Parenthesis Church

[Darrell C]

There is no Scripture that definitively teaches a pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church.

I agree, but when we recognize there is a Rapture taught, unlike yourself, who deny this, and we study Prophecy, the only view that allows for the Whole Counsel, Old and New Testaments...is the Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

Of course, if one wants to maintain Catholic Tradition and throw proper interpretation to the wind, favoring instead to take a Jeffersonian Approach and remove anything they don't want to believe...

...then they should indeed choose you for a teacher.

It is simply inferred based on the doctrine of Darby developed from his reading Isaiah 32!

Show me one post where I have presented anything that was not directly taken from Scripture itself.

And this is how you operate.

You never, and I mean never...actually address the relevant Scripture. Your entire eschatological view revolves around one verse.

You can make that two, you know. Let me help you out:


Daniel 12:1-2

King James Version (KJV)

12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


There you go, don't ever say I never gave you anything, lol.

If you are going to bury your head in the First Principles of Christ then for Pete's (or should that be Saint Pete's?) sake at least have two verses to support your doctrine.

There is Scripture that definitively teaches a General Resurrection and Judgment.

Sure is.

Now can we talk about the rest of the relevant Scripture?

The Scripture your eyes refuse to see?

That doctrine was the view of most Baptist Confessions following the Reformation!

Hmm, and that is the view of Catholics as well is interesting as well.

So many types of Baptists, so many errors.

Glad I can be associated with Independent Baptists, and not Catholicism, which evidently many so-called Protestants have not left.

Of course, I have to be fair here...at least the openly professing Catholics I have spoken with try to address the points in a discussion.




God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

And that Paradise is the New Heavens and New Earth as shown in Revelation 21, 22!

Now reinsert what you have removed:



Revelation 20

King James Version (KJV)

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


God bless.

 

[blessedwife318]

DarrellC I'm on my phone so this will be a quick reply, but I wanted to say that I do believe in the rapture, as a distinct event. But it doesn't have to be at the beginning of the tribulation, that has to be read into the text.
And my 6000 year comment was not a dig on Young Earth Creationist as I am one, it was a dig at date setting and is a reference to another thread.

 

[Darrell C]

They exude an air of superiority-:saint:- like: "I know something you don't"!-:saint:

At least that which we claim to know is not supported by Church Father spam. lol

We don't know anything you don't, it's just that we acknowledge what we both know is true.

There is a Rapture taught in Scripture.

It is a First Century Teaching of Paul.

There is a Millennial Kingdom.

Christ's Return does not teach a Rapture, but a resurrection of those who die in the Tribulation.

Well, I guess you would have to acknowledge the Tribulation itself before working on the weightier issues...


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

DarrellC I'm on my phone so this will be a quick reply, but I wanted to say that I do believe in the rapture, as a distinct event. But it doesn't have to be at the beginning of the tribulation, that has to be read into the text.
And my 6000 year comment was not a dig on Young Earth Creationist as I am one, it was a dig at date setting and is a reference to another thread.

Then I would have to suggest you stop texting responses which cannot be properly understood.

And I would also suggest that your continual denial of the Pre-Trib Rapture without the first Biblical Support carries about as much weight as BRs'.

And if all you can do is make derisive comments about someone or their doctrine, without ever substantiating your own opposing view from the Word of God...maybe Facebook might be a better haunt for you.





God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

You Pre-Trib deniers want to play, we can play.


God bless.

 

[blessedwife318]

Then I would have to suggest you stop texting responses which cannot be properly understood.

And I would also suggest that your continual denial of the Pre-Trib Rapture without the first Biblical Support carries about as much weight as BRs'.

And if all you can do is make derisive comments about someone or their doctrine, without ever substantiating your own opposing view from the Word of God...maybe Facebook might be a better haunt for you.





God bless.

Sorry there are no rules about posting from a phone. Besides this is giving me a much needed distraction that I need at the moment.
I am surprised that you would defend date setting as that is antithetical to an imminent return of Christ (which for the record I do believe in).

 

[Darrell C]

Sorry there are no rules about posting from a phone.

Well I did give those as suggestions, after all...

Besides this is giving me a much needed distraction that I need at the moment.

Oh, is the Pastor preaching?

I am surprised that you would defend date setting as that is antithetical to an imminent return of Christ (which for the record I do believe in).

I set no dates.

The timing of the Rapture can occur at any time, which is just another reason why we distinguish between Christ's Return and the Rapture...

...anyone with a modicum of Bible knowledge will be able, in the Tribulation, to set a pretty accurate arrival date of Christ. At the very least, when that spoken by Christ occurs...


Matthew 24:15-16

King James Version (KJV)

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:


...and actually balance Daniel with Christ's statement, they will know only 3 1/2 years until the Lord returns:



Daniel 12:6-7

King James Version (KJV)

6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.


God bless.

 

[HankD]

So the Church really was in the Old Testament!

No, the given passage does not directly address the church, the body of Christ in which both Jews and Gentiles will be brought together as one into the body of Christ. We are now distinct but not separated from each other by the "wall of partition" and free to go through the opened veil into the very presence of God together with our high priest Jesus Christ.

Even the apostles and disciples were astonished that Gentiles were to be welcomed into the kingdom without circumcision or the keeping of Torah.
Peter gives his account concerning how the Holy Spirit fell upon uncircumcised Gentiles:

Acts 11
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

The Song of Songs/Solomon is the OT book where the church is partially revealed in metaphors as the betrothed of Christ (IMO).
Probably the most neglected Book in the Bible.


HankD

 

[blessedwife318]

Well I did give those as suggestions, after all...




Oh, is the Pastor preaching?






I set no dates.

The timing of the Rapture can occur at any time, which is just another reason why we distinguish between Christ's Return and the Rapture...

...anyone with a modicum of Bible knowledge will be able, in the Tribulation, to set a pretty accurate arrival date of Christ. At the very least, when that spoken by Christ occurs...


Matthew 24:15-16

King James Version (KJV)

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:


...and actually balance Daniel with Christ's statement, they will know only 3 1/2 years until the Lord returns:



Daniel 12:6-7

King James Version (KJV)

6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.


God bless.

I'm on the west coast so no we are still getting ready for church. I did not say you set dates but someone else in another thread posted that there could be 200+ years until the rapture based on the Jewish Calendar. I took issue with that as date setting never works out and I think you and I can agree that the Bible is clear that no one knows when the rapture will happen.

 

[Darrell C]

I'm on the west coast so no we are still getting ready for church. I did not say you set dates but someone else in another thread posted that there could be 200+ years until the rapture based on the Jewish Calendar. I took issue with that as date setting never works out and I think you and I can agree that the Bible is clear that no one knows when the rapture will happen.

That is partly true: we do know it will take place prior to the beginning of the Tribulation.




God bless.

 

[OldRegular]

Then I would have to suggest you stop texting responses which cannot be properly understood.

And I would also suggest that your continual denial of the Pre-Trib Rapture without the first Biblical Support carries about as much weight as BRs'.

And if all you can do is make derisive comments about someone or their doctrine, without ever substantiating your own opposing view from the Word of God...maybe Facebook might be a better haunt for you.

Take your own advice DC without getting snotty with "blessedwife318"!

 

[OldRegular]

No, the given passage does not directly address the church, the body of Christ in which both Jews and Gentiles will be brought together as one into the body of Christ. We are now distinct but not separated from each other by the "wall of partition" and free to go through the opened veil into the very presence of God together with our high priest Jesus Christ.

I was poking fun at beameup's statement:

You forgot the 4th position. There are two "raptures".
One "rapture" is for the Body of Christ and takes place prior to the 70th Week of Daniel (how long before is "debatable").
The second is for those who come to faith during the greatest "harvest" of all, during the first-half of Daniel's 70th Week, and prior to God pouring out his wrath on an unbelieving world.

Far as I am concerned the 70th week was finished about 2000 years ago!

Even the apostles and disciples were astonished that Gentiles were to be welcomed into the kingdom without circumcision or the keeping of Torah.
Peter gives his account concerning how the Holy Spirit fell upon uncircumcised Gentiles:

Acts 11
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Well Stephen says about the Jews, correctly in my opinion:
Acts 7:51. Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

The Song of Songs/Solomon is the OT book where the church is partially revealed in metaphors as the betrothed of Christ (IMO).
Probably the most neglected Book in the Bible.


HankD

I have posted Scofield's preface making the same observation on several occasions. I believe His comments were taken out in the newer versions!

The interpretation is twofold: Primarily, the book is the expression of pure marital love as ordained of God in creation, and the vindication of that love as against both asceticism and lust--the two profanations of the holiness of marriage. The secondary and larger interpretation is of Christ, the Son and His heavenly bride, the Church ( 2 Corinthians 11:1-4 refs).
http://www.biblestudytools.com/comm...-of-solomon/song-of-solomon-introduction.html

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

It is my opinion Matt. 24: 37 prophesy was fulfilled in the year 70, when Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans. “One was taken” means they were taken captive by the Romans. “The other left” means they were not taken by the Romans.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You Pre-Trib deniers want to play, we can play.


God bless.

Punk....:smilewinkgrin:

 

[blessedwife318]

So in the O.T. with the sroll of redemption for a partial of land the Kinsman redeemer would already know what the terms were without opening the seals?

Or would he open the seals and see the requirement then make the payment.
You see the requirement revealed by opening the six seals but the seven couldn't be opened until the payment began.

You see t he Tribulation is just that the redeeming of the lost possession of mankind that is earth and all that was created for this earth. Our Kinsman redeemer Jesus is meeting the terms. The curse requires judgment upon all of unsaved mankind upon the earth.
The Ark proved God would judge all those unbelievers with the flood. Yet 8 were saved, the number 8 representing a new beginning.

He also proved how He judges at Sodom and Gommorah, where the redeemed that is lot, his wife and two daughters were snatched out by the angels.

God protected all those Jews in Egypt from the curse of the first born if they were covered by the blood.

Beautiful types of the Snatching away of the bride before the judgment came upon the earth.

I guess most don't realize Christ must redeem all of creation and the Tribulation period is that price being paid. He came first to redeem mankind. Before Hr returns He must redeem the earth for the Kingdom.

This doesn't even make sense even from a pre-trib viewpoint. If anyone is paying the price it is the earth itself. Wars, plagues, death, famine, scorching heat, bitter water, darkness, earthquakes, etc is all happening to the earth.
I'm curious where you get the idea that the earth must be redeemed?
Ps 24 tells us that the Earth is the Lords.

Besides you were the one that posted Rev 6:16-17 to support your view. I was just pointing out that those verses are after 6 seals being opened, so it really didn't support your view considering the chronology of Revelation.

 

[revmwc]

This doesn't even make sense even from a pre-trib viewpoint. If anyone is paying the price it is the earth itself. Wars, plagues, death, famine, scorching heat, bitter water, darkness, earthquakes, etc is all happening to the earth.
I'm curious where you get the idea that the earth must be redeemed?
Ps 24 tells us that the Earth is the Lords.

Besides you were the one that posted Rev 6:16-17 to support your view. I was just pointing out that those verses are after 6 seals being opened, so it really didn't support your view considering the chronology of Revelation.

But the earth has yet to be redeemed from the curse. The animals on this earth are still groaning under the curse. The earth itself is groaning under the curse Romans 8:22 "For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now." These too must be redeemed. For Christ is the perfect redeemer.
Every realm that came under the curse of Adam’s sin. It must also be redeemed by the Last Adam. Adam was placed in headship over the earth. When Adam fell he did not fall alone, he fell as the head of this earth. He fell as the head of the animals. Through his sin the curse fell upon all that had been placed under him. Everything was under his authority. Adam was created and given dominion over the earth and all that was on it and in it. Being given dominion means he was the leader or head over creation. He was the father of mankind and all nations. Because of his sin the whole earth fell under the curse. The whole human race fell under the curse. Every human being is born with an old sin nature therefore all are sinners and all are The soil of this earth too is under the curse, God said it was look at Genesis 3:17-18.
17And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; Not only was the ground cursed, deserts, waste, barren lands would appear to be under the curse. All the vegetation is under the same curse. Thorns and thistles, weeds begin to spring up. All as a result of the corruption of their nature. All of which was brought on by the curse. Not only were the vegetables and minerals affected by the curse, so too were the animals, all were under the curse. Genesis 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
CONTD

 

[blessedwife318]

So when does the Rapture take place?

There are only two positions, there will be a Rapture, or there won't be.

If you cannot yourself suggest when it will take place, it shows you are out of place condemning another for taking a view that they, at least, consistently give a Scriptural Basis for.

So do you believe there will be a Rapture and when will it take place?

Ok now I'm on a computer so I can answer this better.
Yes I believe that will be a Rapture and I take a Pantrib View, God knows when it will happen and it will all Pan out in the end. I think some views have less support then others, and I have the most trouble with the pre-trib view as it has a very American Centric feel to it. On another board someone in the Pretrib camp said that the persecution of Christians is Nothing today. Which I find offensive given that we have our Christian Brothers and Sisters having their heads sawed off by ISIS and I had recently been to a Voice of the Martyrs Conference and listening to the stories of persecution from around the world is not Nothing. This person basically wanted to ignore that for the sake of making his argument that we will not experience any tribulation, even though the Bible is clear that we should expect persecution and tribulation.

No, one does not have to do a lot of reading into to present the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, it is actually a matter of including many passages and balancing them in order to see that it is not possible that the Church be Raptured in the middle or end of the Tribulation.

I have never seen it done and beleive me I read a bunch of books defending the Pre-trib view. To get to that point you have to start with the pre-trib framework and fill in Scripture according to that framework.
For example Pre-tribbers love to point out John being called into heaven as begin the Rapture then they make an argument from silence that the church is not mentioned in Revelation until chapter 20. You then have to make Saints mean something else besides church, even though in the rest of the NT Saints refers to the church.

Examples: To all those in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Rom 1:17

And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. Rom 8:27

Contribute to the needs of the saints and seek to show hospitality. Rom 12:13

Here is Saints being used in Revelation:

And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. Rev 5:8

And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne, Rev 8:3

Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation, Rev 13:7

If anyone is to be taken captive, to captivity he goes; if anyone is to be slain with the sword, with the sword must he be slain. Here is a call for the endurance and faith of the saints. Rev 13:10

Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. Rev 14:20

And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. When I saw her, I marveled greatly. Rev 17:6

Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you saints and apostles and prophets, for God has given judgment for you against her!” Rev 18:20

Those are just a few examples of Saints being used in Rev. In order for the pre-trib view to work you have to read a different meaning into Saint in Revelation then you would in any other book of the NT.

Answer this for me, if the Rapture takes place at the end of the Tribulation, prior to the Millennial Kingdom...who populates the Millennial Kingdom?


If it just a matter of the Church being resurrected in one general resurrection prior to the Great White Throne...where is the Millennial Kingdom?

I honestly think that post-trib has less support then pre-trib but no one is arguing for a post-trib view here so I really don't see the point in arguing against it since no one is arguing for it.

If the Rapture is during the Tribulation, why isn't it listed in the events, and why is the Church not even mentioned within the events?

I answered that above showing that if you are consistent across the NT Saints and the Church are used interchangeably and we have many mentions of Saints in Revelation.
Besides who are the Martyrs with the 5th seal?
Who does the AntiChrist make war with?

The problem with those who oppose the Pre-Trib Rapture is that they confuse the Return of Christ, where no resurrection other than Tribulational Martyrs takes place, with the event described by Paul. He makes it clear this was a previously unrevealed truth, which negates the possibility that in view is the general resurrection of the dead, for most were aware of that basic fundamental of Old Testament teaching. Those who denied the resurrection of the dead, the Sadducees, were rebuked of the Lord for not knowing Scripture.

So the point is, if you are going to support an a-millennial view (and please do not deny it), would you also please give your thoughts as to when exactly twenty years of study has brought you to understand the Rapture to take place.

I am not and A-Millennialist. I do believe in the literal 1000 year reign of Christ, and I do see the Rapture and Return as two distinct events. I just don't believe your brand of Pre-millennialism.

And, as a Young Earth Creationist, I would appreciate it if you could please explain this...



Not interested in your antagonist's commentary, just curious why YEC is something to be ridiculed as well.


God bless.

As I said before I'm also a Young Earth Creationist, but I do take issue with anyone trying to find hidden codes in the Bible and then trying to set dates based on those hidden codes. And yes I will call out anyone that tries to set dates. That never ends well for date setters and is contrary to what Jesus told us about His return. So yes I will ridicule date setting for the rapture and I'm not ashamed to say that.

 

[blessedwife318]

That is partly true: we do know it will take place prior to the beginning of the Tribulation.




God bless.

Well Played, even if I disagree with you there.

 

[OldRegular]

So in the O.T. with the sroll of redemption for a partial of land the Kinsman redeemer would already know what the terms were without opening the seals?

Or would he open the seals and see the requirement then make the payment.
You see the requirement revealed by opening the six seals but the seven couldn't be opened until the payment began.

You see t he Tribulation is just that the redeeming of the lost possession of mankind that is earth and all that was created for this earth. Our Kinsman redeemer Jesus is meeting the terms. The curse requires judgment upon all of unsaved mankind upon the earth.
The Ark proved God would judge all those unbelievers with the flood. Yet 8 were saved, the number 8 representing a new beginning.

He also proved how He judges at Sodom and Gommorah, where the redeemed that is lot, his wife and two daughters were snatched out by the angels.

God protected all those Jews in Egypt from the curse of the first born if they were covered by the blood.

Beautiful types of the Snatching away of the bride before the judgment came upon the earth.

I guess most don't realize Christ must redeem all of creation and the Tribulation period is that price being paid. He came first to redeem mankind. Before Hr returns He must redeem the earth for the Kingdom.

Where in the world did you get the idea that the Tribulation is the price paid for the redemption of the earth. Jesus Christ paid the the price on the Cross for the Redemption of everything that will be redeemed.The redemption of the creation will occur at the return of Jesus Christ at the time of the White Throne Judgment. Whether that redemption is the Creation of a New Heavens and New Earth or simply a renewal of the existing creation to its pre fall condition is a subject for debate among many. But the idea that the "so-called tribulation" is the price for redemption of creation is absolute utter nonsense and heretical in my opinion!