The Controversy of Christian Lyric

[Joshua Rhodes]

Here's some more I found last night. I love these songs. Do you find them as controversial now as they were then?

JACOB AND 2 WOMEN
Rich Mullins (C) 1991 BMG Songs, Inc.

Jacob, he loved Rachel and Rachel she loved him,
And Leah was just there for dramatic effect;
Well it's right there in the Bible, so it must not be a sin,
But it sure does seem like an awful dirty trick.
And her sky is just a petal pressed in a book of the memory,
Of the time he thought he loved her and they kissed.
And her friends say "Ah, he's a devil,"
But she says "No, he is a dream."
This is the world as best as I can remember it.

Now Jacob got two women and a whole house full of kids,
And he schemed his way back to the promised land.
And he finds it's one thing to win 'em,
And it's another to keep 'em content,
When he knows that he is only just one man.
And his sky's an empty bottle and when he's drunk the ocean dry,
He sails off three sheets to some reckless wind.
And his friends say "ain't it awful,"
He says "no, I think it's fine."
This is the world as best as I can remember it.

Now Rachel's weeping for the children that she thought she could not bear,
And she bears a sorrow that she cannot hide.
And she wishes she was with them but she looks and they're not there,
Seems that love comes for just a moment, and then it passes on by.
And her sky is just a bandit swinging at the end of a hangman's noose,
Cause he stole the moon and must be made to pay for it.
And her friends say "My, that's tragic,"
She says "Especially for the moon."
This is the world as best as I can remember it.
This is the world as best as I can remember it.


WHO YOU REALLY ARE
Ronnie Freeman (C) 2001 Rocketown Music

Peel back all of the laughter and smiling,
Let your emotions have the day off
So you can see what's underneath it all.
Take away the people, the ones you depend on,
Remove your successes and the empires you've built,
Swallow your pride and tear down walls.
And reality will unfold: the truth will be told.

When no one is watching, it's just you and the wind,
When the masquerades are over, who are you then?
Take a look inside your heart,
'Cause whatever remains is who you really are.

So what happens after the heart is uncovered?
What if you've nothing to show but your grief,
Embarrassed and naked - and it hurts to be seen?
Come and listen to the story of a man named Jesus,
Who died for your sins so you could be free
And He wants to pour out His love, if you'll only believe.
Then reality will unfold and the Truth will be told.

When no one is watching, it's just you and the wind,
After you've danced with desperation and Jesus comes in,
Take a look inside your heart,
'Cause whatever remains is who you really are.


TAKE MY LIFE
Mac Powell (C) 1996 New Spring Publishing

How many times have I turned away?
The number is the same as the sands on the shore.
But every time, You’ve taken me back,
And now I pray You’ll do it once more.

Please take from me my life
When I don’t have the strength to give it away to You.
Please take from me my life
When I don’t have the strength to give it away to You, Jesus.

How many times have I turned away?
The number is the same as the stars in the sky.
But every time You’ve taken me back,
And now I pray You’ll do it tonight.

Please take from me my life
When I don’t have the strength to give it away to You.
Please take from me my life
When I don’t have the strength to give it away to You, Jesus.

 

[DanielFive]

Fair enough. It's not there. I don't know why but I did write you back. I don't know if I only thought I sent it or didn't hit the button or what, but I did intend to respond.

At last, an admission of guilt. I forgive you even though this is the second time I have caught you lying.

Exodus 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

You'll probably do it again, but thats not for me to judge.

Like I said, should I accept your apologies when you, yourself, don't take them seriously? You apologize and go right back to doing the thing you just apologzed for. This isn't a one time thing. This is an ongoing pattern of behavior with you.

Sin, confess, sin, confess is an 'ongoing pattern' with all Christians. Sadly the on going pattern you seem to adhere to is sin, lie about it, sin, lie about it, sin, etc. etc. you don't seem to know how to say sorry.

Given your enormous ego, do you really have the right to demand humility from anyone?

I'm not demanding humility, the Word of God demands humility. You probably wouldn't know that though. If you could quote Scripture the way you quote lyrics you might be taken seriously.

Actually, this is a point I've tried in vain to make to you but, of course, you could never have anything in common with lowly sinners such as us.

Actually I am a lowly sinner, even as lowly as you, where we differ of course is that I have the grace to acknowledge my sin and seek reconciliation.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. You treat the rest of us like dirt and then expect us to show you respect as some great spiritual thinker.

Doesn't work that way. If you want respect, you need to show it to others, first.

If you are going to persist in laying false charges against me, why should I show you respect. To use your own expression 'You haven't earned it'.

Mike, the normal practice among Christians is for the one who is pointing out the others sin to show him (from Scripture) where he has went wrong. Do you read Scripture?

I'll give you a piecce of advice, take it or leave it. I'm not going anywhere, I intend to stay around this music board as long as there is people like you here trying to corrupt the mind of Christians. I won't be tippy-toeing around you, so if you don't like what I have to say, stay out of my way.

Thats my last word on the matter. Don't bother replying, I won't be reading it, this thread is no place for a Christian anyway.

 

[Mike McK]

God bless you, enda.

I'm sorry you couldn't find it in your heart to keep the committment you made before all of us here to change your attitude.

And I'm sorry that your hope to "reach an understanding" was just hollow words on your part.

You asked for forgiveness. I forgave you. You threw it back in my face. You asked for forgiveness. I forgave you. You threw it back in my face. You asked for forgiveness. I forgave you. You threw it back in my face.

Each time I forgave you without any obligation on your part, you took advantage of me and, in a very real way, you took advantage of the grace of God.

Where sin abounded, grace abounded even more but does this mean that we can sin just so that grace may abound? Heaven forbid!

Enda, this is exactly what you did.

This was my mistake to blindly forgive.

There's no scriptual example (and, by the way, despite your accusations, I could bury you in scripture) of anyone recieving forgiveness without repentance. You have proven that you are unrepentant so I don't believe I have any Biblical grounds to forgive you again until you demonstrate that you are repentant.

You may have noticed that, despite your nasty and completely unChristlike PM to me, I took you off my ignore list when I thought I was responding to your offer to "reach an understanding". After reading your post at strang, I took you off my ignore list so that we could talk about this and "reach an understanding". Given that you had no intention of any understanding and have gone right back to your old ways, I see no choice but to put you back on my ignore list.

I had even quit responding to you altogether but decided to start talking to you again, believing that your claim that you were going to change was in good faith. Now that we see that it's not, this is the last I have to say to you.

I'm praying for you.

 

[Mike McK]

I apologize profusely to all for allowing myself to get caught up in this stupid game of his and hijack the thread.

Now, back to the subject at hand...


Wayne Watson - 'Would I Know You'

Would I know You now if You walked into the room,
If You stilled the crowd, if Your light dispelled the gloom?
And if I saw Your wounds, touched Your thorn-pierced brow,
I wonder if I'd know You now?

Would I know You now if you walked into this place,
Would I cause You shame, would my games be Your disgrace?
Or would I worship You, fall upon my face?
I wonder if I'd know You now?

Or have the images I painted so distorted who You are,
That even if the world was looking, they could not see You, the real You?
Have I changed the true reflection, to fulfill my own design,
Making You want I want, not showing You forth divine, divine?

Would I miss You now, if You left and closed the door,
Would my flesh cry out, I don't need you anymore?
Or would I follow You, could I be restored?
I wonder, I wonder will I ever learn?
I wonder if I'd know You now?

 

[Joshua Rhodes]

Ah... one of the greats by Mr. Watson. This song says simply, forgive me if I've presented you in a wrong light. I love it.

 

[Mike McK]

Are You Afraid To Die by Carter Stanley



Are you a stranger to God
Carried away with your pride
Tell me sinner did you ever stop to think
Are you afraid to die

Are you afraid
Are you unsaved
Are you afraid to die

Call on him while he's near
Moments are swift passing by
Will you seek him where he may be found
Are you afraid to die

Are you too wicked to cry
Would you to God's bosom fly
Soon he's coming like a thief in the night
Are you afraid to die

 

[JonathanDT]

Originally posted by Baptist Believer:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Molly:
Joshua,the things these songs are saying sound good coming from your interpretation..why doesn't the song say it as clearly as you do?

For the same reason that the parables of Jesus are not perfectly clear to a casual listener...

The songs capture your imagination and get you to consider these timeless truths in a fresh way. </font>[/QUOTE]Just thought this post beared repeating, since it really is the answer to most of the questions asked about these lyrics.

Originally posted by Molly:
My point exactly...this may be the big difference....


I believe God's Word is fresh and perfect the way it is...I don't think a writer of a song can add to or make Truth any better than it already is....OUCH!

As for the question...you're holding a double standard. If you really believed that these songs are irrelevent/unecessary then you would also believe all those old hymns are irrelevent/unecessary. We would simply be singing everything straight from the Bible, after all it's fresh and perfect.

 

[JonathanDT]

Locked In A Cage
Words and Music by John L. Cooper.

I wanna be locked in a cage
I wanna be strapped in a chair
I wanna be where you are
If my insanity comes
Wrapped up inside you

I wanna break my legs
In case of thought to escape
Keep the hammer out of my reach
If my pounding impulse comes
Wrapped up inside Your arms....
Locked up inside You

Hold me down 'cause I want to know You
You bring calm to my rage
You are life and I'm thristing for You

Hold me, hold me, locked in a cage
I love to be caught in you
I wanna be trapped in Your arms
Your cage is rest to my bones
Your cage is peace to my soul
Wrapped up inside Your arms
Wrapped up inside You

Hold me down 'cause I want to know You
You bring calm to my rage
You are life and I'm thristing for You
Hold me, hold me, locked in a cage
Wrapped up inside Your arms
Wrapped up inside Your arms
I'm inside Your arms

I'm inside Your arms
Hold me down 'cause I want to know You
You bring calm to my rage
You are life and I'm thirsting for You
Hold me, hold me, locked in a cage

 

[Mike McK]

Umm....OK...

 

[Molly]

Jonathan,that's terrible...

Mike and Joshua,

What do you think of this song Jonathan has written the words out to...where do you guys draw the line?

Your thoughts please....


Molly

 

[Molly]

Jonathan,

I think you are missing my point....

It was said that the reason for these kinds of songs was to express Truth in a fresh way...That is the reason for it....I don't think that is the reason for hymns or other songs...to entice imagination and make Truth more fresh...I think they are just songs that express Truth period for God's glory,not to make the singer or audience think it is fresh or new.

Remember everything should be done for God's glory,not man's.

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Molly:
Mike

What do you think of this song Jonathan has written the words out to...where do you guys draw the line?

Your thoughts please....


Molly

It's fine. I agree with the sentiment. It's just a little, um, dark for my tastes but I understand what the writer is saying and I agree.

 

[Molly]

So,you believe this song to be good and clear on it's intent...biblical and well written?

Oh.

Molly

 

[Molly]

So,anything is okay?


How is this song glorifying to God?


Molly

 

[JonathanDT]

Hmm, so that's not a favorite, huh?

Ok, what about this one, I'd like to hear some discussion since this is one of my all time favorite songs:

Kill Me Heal Me
Words and music by John L. Cooper.

Break my bones and reset me piece by piece.
You break me, pick of the cross cause it's killing time.
Hey, hey, hey, how can I scream when the pain is such a release.
I get the courage to pick up the nails cause it's killing time.

Kill me, heal me.
Kill me, heal me on and on.
Kill me, heal me.
Kill me, heal me on and on.

Breathing your love, you're ferocious, you're in my lungs.
Resusitate, craving your electricity.
Hey, hey, hey, feet to my pain, you give wings to my fear.
Your peace inhabits my blood. Your love is thick.

I can't live without it. I can't live without it.
I can't live without it. I can't live without it.

 

[JonathanDT]

Originally posted by Molly:
It was said that the reason for these kinds of songs was to express Truth in a fresh way...That is the reason for it....I don't think that is the reason for hymns or other songs...to entice imagination and make Truth more fresh...I think they are just songs that express Truth period for God's glory,not to make the singer or audience think it is fresh or new.

Remember everything should be done for God's glory,not man's.

I disagree. I think that when the author's wrote those hymns, they must have been trying to write new ways to express God's truth, otherwise why bother writing when you could just put music to passages of the Bible?

 

[Joshua Rhodes]

I know a few people that this song made uncomfortable. But I think it did because they needed to hear it. Just my humble opinion.

In His Grip, joshua

UNPLOWED GROUND by Ross King

It’s drier here than ever I remember,
The fields that once were green and tall are now so bare.
And patience for relief has turned to anger
And joyous praise has been replaced with faithless prayer.

I used to love to tend these fields for hours,
And even times of drought would only serve to spur me on.
But now it seems like years without a shower
And somehow my desire to grow has come and gone.
This was the word to Jeremiah but I think it applies to me right about now…

Break up your unplowed ground, and turn your heart to me again.
Lay all your idols down, come confess your sin.
I long to ease your pain and bring your fields to life once more,
But I will not send my rain until you make me Lord.

A vineyard ripe with blessing now surrounds me,
And every harvest so much more than I hoped for.
But as the fruit increases all around me
I see how fat I am and I’m still wanting more.
This was the word God gave Hosea, but I think it applies to me right about now…

Break up your unplowed ground, Have you so soon forgotten me?
I cannot watch you bow at the altar of prosperity
I long to shower down and see our love affair restored
So break up your unplowed ground; it’s time to seek the Lord.

Habits turn to cycles turn to seasons,
And seasons turn to years before we know.
And we lay still alive but barely breathing, and we whisper,
That’s just the way it goes… but the Lord says No.

Break up your unplowed ground, and you will find a treasure,
Sell everything you own, to buy what can’t be measured.
I long to lay you down in richer fields than you have known.
So break up your unplowed ground and make this land your home.

 

[JonathanDT]

Joshua, what is your opinion on the John Cooper songs? I really want to hear it because I think you really look at a song honestly, something that is a little rare.


Unite - Supertones


Live and undrugged twelve years and countin'
Believer in Christ, Yes, yes, the blessed fountain
Apologetic warrior, chalk one up for the visitors
Casting fiercesome light into the shadows of midnight
To the underground we descend
With our whole gereration to defend
Got a whole army on my case, Got the devil in my face
'Cause that punk knows it's the end

Unite, ignite and spark a light to burn so bright the
Sight will blind the blind of this our modern time.

O yeah, I got a beef with the fence-sitters
Tares among the wheat, the cop-outs, the quitters
Cut from the branch fruitless, no good,
Only one use and that's firewood
Pay no mind to the generation line
Forsake your sect and be color blind
The problem's not Hollywood, the problem's not Washington
The problem's a weak divided church of schizmed Christians.

Never going back the the darkness I was damned in
Now I turn my back on the place that I was found in
Flick a match on Babylon, burn baby burn
Raised my mind for all this time and now it's your turn
Got enough gasoline and plenty o' matches
Finally I'm free and I shake off the ashes
From the city of refuse, I refuse to pay dues
To you, not me, and none of the free and the few.


I put the second verse in bold because I think that's where the heart of the song is. This is my favorite Supertones song ever.

 

[Mike McK]

Good lyric, Jonathan.

 

[Joshua Rhodes]

Jonathan,

I assume the John Cooper you're referring to is of the band Skillet?

I don't know much of their music first hand, but I know my brother loves it. And the youth here at the church listen to alot of their stuff too. After checking out their site, reading a little about them, and talking to my brother, I'm willing to trust them lyrically (until I hear something to make me question them.)

The two songs you listed "Locked In a Cage" and "Kill Me Heal Me" are definitely controversial! I believe I know what Mr. Cooper is trying to say, and granted, I would have said it a little differently.

I think they're ok, although I would be careful who I used the song with. Different songs hit different people in different ways, so I don't believe I would use this to minister to the elderly in our church, anymore than I would use Gospel Elvis to minister to the youth.

The songs both make the point in my opinion: "Lord, I don't care what you have to do, but I want to be close to You. Lock me up, even kill me and remake me if needs be. But I want to be what you want."

Molly, as far as where the line is, that's a pretty broad question. Focusing on lyrics only, I think these are on the "Christian" side of the line, although these are not designed, nor would I think you would use them, in a worship setting. I think Skillet is reaching the people they're aiming for... and the bottom line is that God is glorified, and people are coming to Christ. That of course, is my humble opinion.

In His Grip,
joshua