The Danger of the Denial of the Pre-Trib Translation (Rapture) of the Church of Jesus Christ

[atpollard]

There are more, at, I just named a few but God has constants in his word.

Here is another worthy consideration along that vein.

1 Cor 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Read this following outside your lock box and read it carefully.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It (the body) is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

The natural body is first!

I don't think that is as significant as you are making it. Is that not merely the same acknowledgement as Ephesians 2:1-10 where it starts out acknowledging we begin in sin before our spiritual "made alive" by God? Nobody starts the race "born saved" with righteousness already theirs to lose. We are born in need of a savior.

 

[JD731]

I don't think that is as significant as you are making it. Is that not merely the same acknowledgement as Ephesians 2:1-10 where it starts out acknowledging we begin in sin before our spiritual "made alive" by God? Nobody starts the race "born saved" with righteousness already theirs to lose. We are born in need of a savior.

No one is born saved, except Jesus Christ. I think that is a point.

 

[JD731]

Has anyone noticed that the two letters to the Thessalonian church is the most comprehensive teaching of the end time coming for his bride the church and the subsequent judgement of the day of the LORD, where the purging of all sinners from the earth will be accomplished for the beginning of the Sabbath rest of God when he has finished his work of redemption and men will once again live for 1000 years and beyond? The first letter is dealing with the catching away of the church and the lead up to it while the second letter deals with the man of sin and the Day of the Lord and conditions that will prevail in that day. The day of the Lord is concerned with that time in prophecy when the man of sin, Satan's false Christ will be revealed and will include his deadly reign.

We probably should include this topic in our "rapture" discussion and see if we can get light on the subject. I am anxious to talk about it. How about others? Does anyone have some thoughts? 1 and 2 Thessalonians; what do we learn?

 

[canadyjd]

To deny the church and the special blessings, including Christ coming for it and the subsequent marriage, negatively affects several OT prophetic themes.

So, not believing in a pre-tribulation rapture equals denying the church, special blessings, and the 2nd coming of Christ. Is that what you are saying?

Peace to you

 

[JD731]

So, not believing in a pre-tribulation rapture equals denying the church, special blessings, and the 2nd coming of Christ. Is t hat what you are saying?

Peace to you

Well, it is similar to what I am saying but not exactly. Those who have read my posts will know that i understand and believe that salvation is not dependent on how well one can parse the scriptures but that is wholly dependent on faith in God and the sacrificial work of Jesus Christ whether one who believes the gospel ever even sees a copy of the scriptures.

But, having said that, many on here do not believe what I just stated and when defining Bible words we often disagree with one another because we use the same words but they have completely different meanings and applications between us. For instance, when I am speaking of the translation of the church, I am thinking the church is that creation of God in the New Testament that was taken out of Jesus' side and filled with his Spirit and is unique in this present age as God works out his unfolding drama of redemption. Would you believe that probably most people on this board would not agree with me on my definition but believes the church had it's beginning with Adam in Genesis?

The danger is not with being ignorant but developing a systematic theology from false teachers and then teaching it to others as though it were true. What we do and teach is serious because we influence other peoples lives.

 

[canadyjd]

……

The danger is not with being ignorant but developing a systematic theology from false teachers and then teaching it to others as though it were true. What we do and teach is serious because we influence other peoples lives.

So, any systematic theology that denies a pre-trib rapture is a false teaching, anyone that teaches it is a false teacher that influences other peoples lives.

Please explain how this “false teaching” influences peoples lives?

I believe scripture very clearly teaches a post trib rapture (Matthew 24-26). I teach that.

Again, please be specific and concise, what “danger” is there from believing and teaching what, imo, scripture very clearly states?

Peace to you

 

[JD731]

So, any systematic theology that denies a pre-trib rapture is a false teaching, anyone that teaches it is a false teacher that influences other peoples lives.

Please explain how this “false teaching” influences peoples lives?

I believe scripture very clearly teaches a post trib rapture (Matthew 24-26). I teach that.

Again, please be specific and concise, what “danger” is there from believing and teaching what, imo, scripture very clearly states?

Peace to you

For the sake of clarity lets define our terms. So we are both using the term "rapture" or at least in my case, the word translation or gathering or glorification, all Bible words that speaks of the same event in the context of the church of Jesus Christ.. These are all explained by the apostle Paul because he says the church is a new creation, the formation of a new man with new promises under a new testament of promise that reveals an interim purpose of God in history that was not previously made known (or even possible) and that in no way nullifies any covenant promise that God has made with his covenanted nation and family, Israel, and by extension the nations.

Who, in your theology, is going to be raptured and what does that mean? Can you briefly give your definition of the church of Jesus Christ?

Thanks.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Would you believe that probably most people on this board would not agree with me on my definition but believes the church had it's beginning with Adam in Genesis?

I'm sure most people would {rightly) not agree with your definition of 'church,' but I never heard of anyone who believes that it began with Adam.
Presbyterians tend to believe that it started at Mt. Sinai (Acts 7:28), but I think that most Baptists would believe that it started at Pentecost.

 

[JD731]

I'm sure most people would {rightly) not agree with your definition of 'church,' but I never heard of anyone who believes that it began with Adam.
Presbyterians tend to believe that it started at Mt. Sinai (Acts 7:28), but I think that most Baptists would believe that it started at Pentecost.

Thanks for opining but at least some here believes the church to be a new form of Israel called spiritual Israel and have said so. You began your post speaking of the definitions but addressed when it began. I do agree however that the church had its beginning at Pentecost when the Holy Ghost was sent from above.

 

[JD731]

I'm sure most people would {rightly) not agree with your definition of 'church,' but I never heard of anyone who believes that it began with Adam.
Presbyterians tend to believe that it started at Mt. Sinai (Acts 7:28), but I think that most Baptists would believe that it started at Pentecost.

Keeping in mind that the pre-trib rapture of the church of Jesus Christ is the only logical and reasonable conclusion of the scriptures if one defines the church of Jesus Christ biblically and as unique to this age and with a special calling and privileges, and if one properly identifies the tribulation as the reserved time of God when he judges this world for their sins and purges it of all sinners in preparation for the 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ on it in in the attitude of perfect righteousness.

Job 21:30 That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.

2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, (as opposed to the Noah days heaven and earth destroyed by water) by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Ac 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Ro 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

God introduced a theme in the prophetic scriptures that he calls "the day of the LORD." In the initial prophecy of this day there is nothing good said. It is one hundred percent negative as it applies to the world. It is designated with this title 33 times in 31 verses, meaning it appears twice in two different verses. It is always in the future in whatever Bible book you read about it. It is a time of thick darkness on the earth. It is said to be the time of God's indignation. The time of his wrath. The time of his judgement.

I want you to see this theme so I am publishing the following list;

1. 840 – Obadiah - 1 time
2. 810 – Joel - 5 times
3. 785 – Jonah
4. 750 – Amos - 3 times in two verses
5. 735 – Micah
6. 720 – Hosea
7. 690 – Isaiah - 4 times
8. 625 – Zephaniah - 7 times in 6 verses -
9. 620 – Nahum
10. 608 – Habakkuk
11. 586 – Lamentations - 1 time
12. 580 – Jeremiah - 1 time
13. 570 – Ezekiel - 2 times
14. 536 – Daniel -
15. 520 – Haggai
16. 520 – Zechariah - 1 time
17. 430 – Malachi - 1 time

60 - Acts - 1 time
51 – 1 Thessalonians - 1 time
54 – 1 Corinthians - Day of the Lord Jesus
55 – 2 Corinthians - Day of the Lord Jesus
64 – 1 Peter - 1 time

From 840 BC to 64 AD is a total of 904 years - definitely a theme of scripture.
It is mentioned by name 31 times in 33 verses in 15 Bible books by 12 different authors
It has not happened yet. It remains a future event.

Here are some excepts form the above verses to ponder;

Zep 1:18 in the day of the LORD’S wrath;
Zep 2:2 in the day of the LORD’S anger;
Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
Zep 1:8 And it shall come to pass in the day of the LORD’S sacrifice,
Ob 1:15 For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen:
Am 5:20 Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?
Joe 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
Joe 2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
Joe 1:15 Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.
Eze 30:3 For the day is near, even the day of the LORD is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen.
La 2:22 Thou hast called as in a solemn day my terrors round about, so that in the day of the LORD’S anger none escaped nor remained:
Jer 46:10 For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries:
Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
Isa 2:12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:

Compare Joel 2:1 with this verse below and you will know the exact time of the beginning of the day of the Lord and the event that brings it in.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This is a pre-trib rapture of the church of Jesus Christ.

I have much more to say about this topic but I am stopping here for now to allow you to ponder on this prophetic theme that is still in the future but is close at hand. Be sure you are prepared.

 

[Dave G]

Many on this board would go on record denying the truth of the gathering of the church together from heaven (those who have died physically) and from earth (those who are alive when it happens) at her predestined glorification when we will all receive our promised glorified body like unto our Lord's glorious body at the exact same time, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump (the feast of trumpets).

I would not, as that is what God's word tells me;
Only I don't see the last trump being referred to as having anything to do with the feast of trumpets.

To me, the Lord is referring to the last trumpet that the angel sounds in places like Revelation 11:15-19, and that the Lord will descend after it sounds in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.

Israel is God's earthy people for eternity and the saved nations will be blessed on the earth through them.

The physical nation of Israel is God's earthly people, and will pass away at the Judgement.
The "Israel of God" spoken of in places like Galatians 6:16 describes the spiritual nation of Israel, which Gentile believers ( the saved nations ) are grafted into by the Lord, is it not?

Please see Romans 11, Ephesians 3 and Galatians 3.

The meaning of death in scripture is separation and that is all it means.

The meaning of "death" depends upon the subject being spoken of by the Lord in whatever passage that we find it, right?
For example, in some places the "death" being described is physical; In others, it is spiritual.

In the matter of spiritual death, it not only involves separation from God and / or God's blessings, but also willful and stubborn rebellion against God. To be "dead in trespasses and sins" is to be "dead" in our hearts and in our minds towards the Lord.

To be alive in Christ is the complete opposite of that.

 

[Dave G]

The time of the translation of the church is very close now. Those in the world who have heard the gospel and did not get saved when they had opportunity will not have another opportunity and will be damned. God himself will send them strong delusion that they will believe the lie of the man of sin. This is the danger.

I agree to an extent.
I also see that, according to the Scriptures, we still have yet to see the revealing of Anti-Christ...
Which is comes before our catching away and is right around the corner; and given the condition of this present world, closer and closer each day.

But it seems to me that you're missing quite a bit in the details, JD.

Nobody "gets saved" by being "given an opportunity".
They are either elect, chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4 ) and are called into the fellowship of the saints through the power and in the timing of the Holy Spirit, or "non-elect" and either don't believe, or "believe" for a time and then fall away.

To punctuate this, we are told in Romans 8 through Romans 11 many things...such as that there are vessels of mercy afore prepared unto glory, and vessels of wrath fitted to destruction. This is the way it has been since the world was created.
For example, Abel was elect and died in faith ( see Hebrews 11 ) while Cain was of the wicked one ( 1 John 3:12 )and his heart was shown to be hardened against God.

Since Jesus Christ will lose none of the ones given to Him by His Father, the ones who will be sent strong delusion ( that they should believe the lie that Anti-Christ is God ) are the ones who are not elect, already condemned by God and that the Lord is pleased to hide His face from.
The unavoidable danger is theirs, not ours as Christ's sheep.

We as believers shall not be caught unawares, as we know Him and are known of Him.

Those of us who still remain on the earth to that time ( "we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord", 1 Thessalonians 4:15 ) will indeed know who the man of sin is, though he deceives the rest of mankind.

 

[Dave G]

As for the timing of our catching away and someday being with the Lord ( as the dead in Christ are now with Him and those yet to be with Him are not ), that happens immediately after the Tribulation ( Matthew 24:15-31, Mark 13:14-27 ), not before.

This is why His word tells us that for the sake of God's elect, those days will be cut short ( Matthew 24:22, Mark 13:20 ).
There will be members of God's elect during the Tribulation, who will see the revealing of Anti-Christ and leave their houses and flee into the wilderness... just as Matthew 24:15-21 and Mark 13:14-19 describes.


Finally, regarding the "Pre-Tribulation" rapture ( whose timing seems built almost entirely on the contents of Revelation 3:10, spoken to the church at Philadelphia ), I began to see the truth of this subject many years ago now, as I studied the Scriptures over and over again;
Because of what Matthew 24 and Mark 13 ( among others ) tells me, I can only deny that this teaching is the truth...
Since I see that God's word, in the details, does not teach this.

Rather, our catching away and joining with the Lord will happen, again, after the Tribulation, and not before.

Please read Matthew 24 and Mark 13 carefully, sir, and pay particular attention to when certain things are said to happen;
It's all in there.

 

[canadyjd]

For the sake of clarity lets define our terms. So we are both using the term "rapture" or at least in my case, the word translation or gathering or glorification, all Bible words that speaks of the same event in the context of the church of Jesus Christ.. These are all explained by the apostle Paul because he says the church is a new creation, the formation of a new man with new promises under a new testament of promise that reveals an interim purpose of God in history that was not previously made known (or even possible) and that in no way nullifies any covenant promise that God has made with his covenanted nation and family, Israel, and by extension the nations.

Who, in your theology, is going to be raptured and what does that mean? Can you briefly give your definition of the church of Jesus Christ?

Thanks.

For the sake of clarity, please explain the “danger” of not believing a pre-trib rapture.

Once you have explained the danger, I will directly answer your questions.

Peace to you

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Keeping in mind that the pre-trib rapture of the church of Jesus Christ is the only logical and reasonable conclusion of the scriptures if one defines the church of Jesus Christ biblically and as unique to this age and with a special calling and privileges, and if one properly identifies the tribulation as the reserved time of God when he judges this world for their sins and purges it of all sinners in preparation for the 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ on it in in the attitude of perfect righteousness.

Of course there is a massive begging of the question here: I simply don't agree with your initial premise, so the rest of your post, despite all you quoting of texts with which I am fully aware, simply has no effect upon my position.
The point that you don't seem to understand is that it is the Church that has to go through the Tribulation. It is the people of the world who are saying 'peace and safety' just before destruction comes upon them, just as the people of Noah's time were 'eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage' immediately before 'the flood came and took them all away.'

 

[JD731]

Of course there is a massive begging of the question here: I simply don't agree with your initial premise, so the rest of your post, despite all you quoting of texts with which I am fully aware, simply has no effect upon my position.
The point that you don't seem to understand is that it is the Church that has to go through the Tribulation. It is the people of the world who are saying 'peace and safety' just before destruction comes upon them, just as the people of Noah's time were 'eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage' immediately before 'the flood came and took them all away.'

You do not accept the scriptures I have quoted because you do not define the church of Jesus Christ biblically. The purpose of God in this age is completed. The church , the body of Christ, the bride of Christ is now ready for the wedding soon after the bridegroom comes for her. God did not save us so he could punish us. It is not logical, sensible, or reasonable.

Having established that the day of the Lord judgement is about purging all sinners from the earth and establishing a reign of righteousness when Jesus Christ comes with his bride and the holy angels to rule and reign on the earth, we know the translation of the church is to save (deliver) us from the wrath to come. How many times would God have to say that before you will believe it?

1Th 1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;
10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 Thess 2:12 That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory. (glory is an operative word because the church has been predestinated to be glorified)
19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

Obviously his coming for his church to deliver us is before his coming wrath on the heathen.

12 And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you:
13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

1Th 4:13 ¶ But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

What is next then? It is the day of the Lord, the day of thick darkness that we have read about already in 15 prophetic books by 12 different authors over a period of 904 years and Paul reiterated in chapter 5 that the church will be delivered from it and that it should not trouble us.
I am going to publish it so you may read it.

1 Thess 5:1 ¶ But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. (unexpected - we are Bible believers and he is informing us how it is going down)
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 ¶ Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation (deliverance).
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation (deliverance from the wrath of the day of the Lord) by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 ¶ Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

The church of Jesus Christ is the BODY of Christ and vitally united to him as one man and Jesus Christ does not have to suffer for our sins a second time like you men claim.

There are other epistles that gives us hope of the salvation from wrath through Christ. There is no scripture that says what you say, that we must suffer the wrath of God for our own sins after we have received Jesus Christ as our savior.

I suggest you study to understand the biblical definition of the church of Jesus Christ because you obviously do not understand it.

 

[JD731]

For the sake of clarity, please explain the “danger” of not believing a pre-trib rapture.

Once you have explained the danger, I will directly answer your questions.

Peace to you

The danger is that you who refuse to accept the truth about the church and the teaching concerning it are deceiving and being deceived. That is one characteristic of the end of this age. I trust it is because of ignorance.

 

[JD731]

As for the timing of our catching away and someday being with the Lord ( as the dead in Christ are now with Him and those yet to be with Him are not ), that happens immediately after the Tribulation ( Matthew 24:15-31, Mark 13:14-27 ), not before.

This is why His word tells us that for the sake of God's elect, those days will be cut short ( Matthew 24:22, Mark 13:20 ).
There will be members of God's elect during the Tribulation, who will see the revealing of Anti-Christ and leave their houses and flee into the wilderness... just as Matthew 24:15-21 and Mark 13:14-19 describes.


Finally, regarding the "Pre-Tribulation" rapture ( whose timing seems built almost entirely on the contents of Revelation 3:10, spoken to the church at Philadelphia ), I began to see the truth of this subject many years ago now, as I studied the Scriptures over and over again;
Because of what Matthew 24 and Mark 13 ( among others ) tells me, I can only deny that this teaching is the truth...
Since I see that God's word, in the details, does not teach this.

Rather, our catching away and joining with the Lord will happen, again, after the Tribulation, and not before.

Please read Matthew 24 and Mark 13 carefully, sir, and pay particular attention to when certain things are said to happen;
It's all in there.

Dave G, on all of your comments above you have stated your belief system without proof for your stated doctrines. That is a philosophical approach. You essentially ignored a massive amount of evidence I gave from the scripture for my position. I gave the quotes so you could see the context and follow my logic. The manner in which you have presented your case is not convincing nor proper.

Now, I believe the main difference between us is the definition of terms. We are not close to defining any of the terms the same way. We essentially are presenting two gospels. If your are right then I cannot be.

 

[canadyjd]

The danger is that you who refuse to accept the truth about the church and the teaching concerning it are deceiving and being deceived. That is one characteristic of the end of this age. I trust it is because of ignorance.

Tell me what the “danger” is of not believing the pre-trib rapture?

Saying I’m deceived and deceiving others doesn’t tell me what the “danger” is?

I see a great danger for those who believe in a pre-trib rapture. It is absolutely clear from Matthew 24-26 that the rapture occurs AFTER the great tribulation.

When Christians begin to experience the great tribulation, as Jesus very plainly said we would on numerous occasions, those who expected to be raptured before the tribulation will certainly question their own salvation, wondering why they, and all the others they believe are saved, are going through the tribulation.

On the other hand, those that expected to endure the tribulation before Christ’s return discover they are being raptured before the tribulation will have nothing but great big THANK YOU LORD JESUS, I got it wrong!!!

There is no “danger” in being wrong about a post trib rapture. There is much danger in being wrong about a pre-trib rapture.

Peace to you

 

[Brother Ron]

Scripture does not say that Christians will not suffer tribulation, rather it says He will deliver us from the wrath. God will pour out His wrath in the second half of the tribulation which is 3.5 years after the antichrist signs the peace treaty with Israel.
I believe the church will be raptured right after the halfway point of the tribulation just before God pours out His severe wrath.