The Danger of the Denial of the Pre-Trib Translation (Rapture) of the Church of Jesus Christ

[canadyjd]

Bottom line… our view of the timing of the rapture in particular, and end time theology in general, does not effect our salvation.

There is no “danger” in being wrong for those who are the elect.

Peace to you

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The church of Jesus Christ is the BODY of Christ and vitally united to him as one man and Jesus Christ does not have to suffer for our sins a second time like you men claim.

There are other epistles that gives us hope of the salvation from wrath through Christ. There is no scripture that says what you say, that we must suffer the wrath of God for our own sins after we have received Jesus Christ as our savior.

I suggest you study to understand the biblical definition of the church of Jesus Christ because you obviously do not understand it.

There is no need for you to come over all superior, as if you alone know the Scriptures - which you don't. Of course the Church is the body of Christ, and of course He does not have to suffer for our sins a second time. Try not to be silly.
However, there are several verses that tell us that Christians have to suffer during this age, as, of course they have done all down the centuries, and indeed are doing right now in many parts of the world.
John 16:33. "These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world." Through Christ, we can have peace, even in the midst of tribulation.
Phil. 1:29-30. 'For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, having the same conflict which you saw in Me and now hear is in me.'
See also 2 Thes. 1:3-10.

Now, with regard to 1 Thes. 4:13-5:9, it is clear that Paul is answering two questions that were troubling the Thessalonian Christians.
Firstly, they were worried that those who had already died would not share in the Resurrection. This is Paul's point in 4:13-18.
The 'rapture' follows the practice of a 1st Century Jewish wedding. The friends of the bride wait outside the bride's house until they see the bridegroom's party coming, then they go out to greet them and take them at once back to the house (cf. Matt 25:1-13). So the church on earth is waiting for the Bridegroom to appear. When He does, we shall be taken ('raptured' if you prefer) up to join Him and the spirits of the saints who have died in the air. At that time those who have died and those who have been on earth will receive new resurrection bodies (1 Cor. 15:51ff). I can't wait!

In 1Thes. 5:1-9, Paul is answering the question, 'when will these things be. The answer is, of course, that no one knows (Matt. 24:36), but it will be at the close of 'perilous times' (2 Tim. 3:1ff) for the Church, but at a time of ease and confidence for those outside.

But there is only one Day of the Lord to come (1 Thes. 5:2) and only one Coming of the Lord, and these are the same event.

 

[JesusFan]

Bottom line… our view of the timing of the rapture in particular, and end time theology in general, does not effect our salvation.

There is no “danger” in being wrong for those who are the elect.

Peace to you

Most important theology is to be now in Christ, and then regardless of when the Second Coming event happens, we shall be raised and be glorified in Him

 

[JesusFan]

There is no need for you to come over all superior, as if you alone know the Scriptures - which you don't. Of course the Church is the body of Christ, and of course He does not have to suffer for our sins a second time. Try not to be silly.
However, there are several verses that tell us that Christians have to suffer during this age, as, of course they have done all down the centuries, and indeed are doing right now in many parts of the world.
John 16:33. "These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world." Through Christ, we can have peace, even in the midst of tribulation.
Phil. 1:29-30. 'For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, having the same conflict which you saw in Me and now hear is in me.'
See also 2 Thes. 1:3-10.

Now, with regard to 1 Thes. 4:13-5:9, it is clear that Paul is answering two questions that were troubling the Thessalonian Christians.
Firstly, they were worried that those who had already died would not share in the Resurrection. This is Paul's point in 4:13-18.
The 'rapture' follows the practice of a 1st Century Jewish wedding. The friends of the bride wait outside the bride's house until they see the bridegroom's party coming, then they go out to greet them and take them at once back to the house (cf. Matt 25:1-13). So the church on earth is waiting for the Bridegroom to appear. When He does, we shall be taken ('raptured' if you prefer) up to join Him and the spirits of the saints who have died in the air. At that time those who have died and those who have been on earth will receive new resurrection bodies (1 Cor. 15:51ff). I can't wait!

In 1Thes. 5:1-9, Paul is answering the question, 'when will these things be. The answer is, of course, that no one knows (Matt. 24:36), but it will be at the close of 'perilous times' (2 Tim. 3:1ff) for the Church, but at a time of ease and confidence for those outside.

But there is only one Day of the Lord to come (1 Thes. 5:2) and only one Coming of the Lord, and these are the same event.

I see aas being all in Christ and my fellow brethren all those who hold to pretty much any biblical view on the second coming, and see views such as Dominion, Kingdom Now, and full preterist as heretical views

 

[JD731]

There is no need for you to come over all superior, as if you alone know the Scriptures - which you don't. Of course the Church is the body of Christ, and of course He does not have to suffer for our sins a second time. Try not to be silly.
However, there are several verses that tell us that Christians have to suffer during this age, as, of course they have done all down the centuries, and indeed are doing right now in many parts of the world.
John 16:33. "These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world." Through Christ, we can have peace, even in the midst of tribulation.
Phil. 1:29-30. 'For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, having the same conflict which you saw in Me and now hear is in me.'
See also 2 Thes. 1:3-10.

Now, with regard to 1 Thes. 4:13-5:9, it is clear that Paul is answering two questions that were troubling the Thessalonian Christians.
Firstly, they were worried that those who had already died would not share in the Resurrection. This is Paul's point in 4:13-18.
The 'rapture' follows the practice of a 1st Century Jewish wedding. The friends of the bride wait outside the bride's house until they see the bridegroom's party coming, then they go out to greet them and take them at once back to the house (cf. Matt 25:1-13). So the church on earth is waiting for the Bridegroom to appear. When He does, we shall be taken ('raptured' if you prefer) up to join Him and the spirits of the saints who have died in the air. At that time those who have died and those who have been on earth will receive new resurrection bodies (1 Cor. 15:51ff). I can't wait!

In 1Thes. 5:1-9, Paul is answering the question, 'when will these things be. The answer is, of course, that no one knows (Matt. 24:36), but it will be at the close of 'perilous times' (2 Tim. 3:1ff) for the Church, but at a time of ease and confidence for those outside.

But there is only one Day of the Lord to come (1 Thes. 5:2) and only one Coming of the Lord, and these are the same event.

You are being disingenious, Martin. I am not sure why except you are attempting to establish private interpretations that does not account for context. You are much smarter than to be deceived into believing that the context of John 16:33 and Phil 1:29-30 and like passages concerning tribulation from the world is the same context of the reserved time of wrath OF GOD that is determined upon the whole earth.

I have meticulously outlined the theme of this time of trouble that is described by the prophets in great details, beginning in the year 810 BC and culminating in the future, when John the Beloved looks into our future and makes this startling pronouncement. Read it for yourself;

17 For the great day of HIS wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Read the context. This is not tribulation from the world, it is tribulation and indignation and wrath from God, it is the wrath of God. It is God's wrath, and who will be able to stand?

Those who have put their trust in Jesus Christ is delivered beforehand this wrath. Why would God be angry and have indignation with those who have bowed their knees to him in humble worship and praise. What is the character of the God you people preach?

Please go back to my post where I gave you the list of prophecies that particularly noted the coming day of the Lord, which is the beginning of the 7th thousand year day and the final day in the history of time. There will be a purging of sinners from the world during 7 years that has the degination of Jacob's trouble.

Martin, you are publishing your private interpretation and you are being stubborn and you are leading at least two men astray.

The church of Jesus Christ is not Israel in any manner. It is a new creation of this age and dispensation and it has a heavenly calling and destiny. It is delivered from the wrath of God to come.

Thankfully God sends preachers to preach the same gospel that was preached in the gospel accounts when Jesus Christ was here on earth, the gospel of the kingdom, but the believers, which are many, are not part of the church. The church is complete and in heaven during this time. Think!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I have meticulously outlined the theme of this time of trouble that is described by the prophets in great details, beginning in the year 810 BC and culminating in the future, when John the Beloved looks into our future and makes this startling pronouncement. Read it for yourself;

17 For the great day of HIS wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The great day of God's wrath comes at the end of time, when the Lord Jesus returns at the same time as the Church is raptured as per my last post.
And btw, you are publishing your private interpretations and being stubborn, but thankfully you do not seem to be leading anyone astray.

 

[JD731]

Bottom line… our view of the timing of the rapture in particular, and end time theology in general, does not effect our salvation.

There is no “danger” in being wrong for those who are the elect.

Peace to you

The Bible teaches, and history testifies, that this present age (a Bible term - Ga 1:4) has God dealing with all men under his operative principle of grace wherein he has dealt with the sins of all men in a manner which includes his imputing all sins of all men upon his own son at the cross and has put them away. The wonderful thing for each of us who lives on this earth is that our personal sins are not imputed to us while we live here. The down size for the world is that in the absence of personal justice from God on personal sins is that the world becomes increasingly wicked because of the sinful nature of men. "A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump." "And as it is appointed unto man once to die, but after this the judgement.:

So, when society becomes so corrupt and men in total rejects the light of the glorious gospel of Christ that can alone give them eternal life then God will change his operative principle of divine dealing and it will no longer be by the principle of grace and mercy. This transition takes place instantly at the time of the rapture. This is the completion of the church, or the fullness of the gentiles, of Jesus Christ and leaves the world without a single saved person on it. This begins a series of incredible judgements of God upon the kingdom of Satan and his man of sin.

But like all dispensational changes God had made on the earth, those who have had an opportunity to be saved but have refused to believe God will be damned and God will not save them. Remember, only 8 souls were delivered on the Ark and the rest perished. The door was closed before the rain began.

This brings me to quote 2nd Thess that deals with the time after the rapture of the church, the bride of Christ, and during the wrath of God upon fallen humanity. Read what God reveals;
2 Thess 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, (this is what is commonly know of the rapture of the church of Jesus Christ)

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
(the day of Christ is the same as the day of the Lord, only as it is applied to the church and is likewise a day of judgement, only in heaven and not for sins obviously, but for rewards or lack thereof for deeds)

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (the day of Christ) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, (we know from other scriptures that his revelation is not immediate) and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work (in 51 AD): only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked (the man of sin) be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Here is the prophecy that men who had opportunity to be saved but refused will not have another opportunity by God's decree;

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

We have just read a prophecy of events of a future time that does not include grace as the operative principle of divine dealing like now.

The promise to the church is that it will be glorified and translated to heaven before this awful judgement on the earth.

 

[37818]

@JD731,
What seems not to have been answered, what is the danger?

 

[JD731]

@37818
I have given you the danger but you obviously did not see it. I do think it is probably because you do not believe false teaching is a denial of truth.

Case in point; what did you think about the "day of the Lord" theme that was presented to you and the promise of God to deliver his church from the wrath to come? Is it a valid promise in your estimation?

It is not okay to teach contrary to the scriptures once you have been shown the truth. The light changes your status.

 

[JesusFan]

The Bible teaches, and history testifies, that this present age (a Bible term - Ga 1:4) has God dealing with all men under his operative principle of grace wherein he has dealt with the sins of all men in a manner which includes his imputing all sins of all men upon his own son at the cross and has put them away. The wonderful thing for each of us who lives on this earth is that our personal sins are not imputed to us while we live here. The down size for the world is that in the absence of personal justice from God on personal sins is that the world becomes increasingly wicked because of the sinful nature of men. "A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump." "And as it is appointed unto man once to die, but after this the judgement.:

So, when society becomes so corrupt and men in total rejects the light of the glorious gospel of Christ that can alone give them eternal life then God will change his operative principle of divine dealing and it will no longer be by the principle of grace and mercy. This transition takes place instantly at the time of the rapture. This is the completion of the church, or the fullness of the gentiles, of Jesus Christ and leaves the world without a single saved person on it. This begins a series of incredible judgements of God upon the kingdom of Satan and his man of sin.

But like all dispensational changes God had made on the earth, those who have had an opportunity to be saved but have refused to believe God will be damned and God will not save them. Remember, only 8 souls were delivered on the Ark and the rest perished. The door was closed before the rain began.

This brings me to quote 2nd Thess that deals with the time after the rapture of the church, the bride of Christ, and during the wrath of God upon fallen humanity. Read what God reveals;
2 Thess 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, (this is what is commonly know of the rapture of the church of Jesus Christ)

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
(the day of Christ is the same as the day of the Lord, only as it is applied to the church and is likewise a day of judgement, only in heaven and not for sins obviously, but for rewards or lack thereof for deeds)

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (the day of Christ) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, (we know from other scriptures that his revelation is not immediate) and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work (in 51 AD): only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked (the man of sin) be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Here is the prophecy that men who had opportunity to be saved but refused will not have another opportunity by God's decree;

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

We have just read a prophecy of events of a future time that does not include grace as the operative principle of divine dealing like now.

The promise to the church is that it will be glorified and translated to heaven before this awful judgement on the earth.

The bible can support pre trib mid trib post trib as well as amil and Premill various positions

 

[JD731]

The bible can support pre trib mid trib post trib as well as amil and Premill various positions

How?

 

[JesusFan]

How?

Depending on how one views relationship between Israel and the Church

 

[Dave G]

Dave G, on all of your comments above you have stated your belief system without proof for your stated doctrines.

Yes, I have.
But you've read all the same scriptures I have, and have disagreed on subjects in the past.

I don't expect that will change, I'm sorry to say.

That is a philosophical approach

I disagree.
What it is, is me simply telling you what I see when I read God's word as a whole....a summary, if you will.

You essentially ignored a massive amount of evidence I gave from the scripture for my position.

No I did not.
But because I was raised in IB and IFB churches, I already know every passage of Scripture that you use to support your position.

That's not meant as an insult, but to inform you of how much I was exposed to it over the years.

 

[Dave G]

I gave the quotes so you could see the context and follow my logic.

Believe it or not, my friend, God's word, in the details, defies human logic...
So what I'm unable to understand, is why anyone would rely on fallen human logic and reason when they approach the Bible.
In fact, we as believers are point-blank told by God, not to ( Proverbs 3:5-6 ), and we read and believe what is written....

Not what "makes sense".

From my perspective,
For someone who tells people to believe the words, JD, it's as if you see what's written, and often ignore it in favor of telling someone why it cannot mean what it says.
To me, this thread is but one of those cases.

 

[Dave G]

The manner in which you have presented your case is not convincing nor proper.

In reality, it isn't meant to convince anyone.
God is the believer's Teacher ( 1 John 2:20-27 ), so each and every one of His people has it within themselves ( via His Spirit ) to study His word and arrive at the correct understanding of it without needing a man to explain the meaning of it.

What I'm doing, JD, is speaking out of my understanding of it...
Ans as I see it, it's up to the reader of whatever post I make, to search God's word and check me on it.

Now, I believe the main difference between us is the definition of terms. We are not close to defining any of the terms the same way. We essentially are presenting two gospels. If your are right then I cannot be.

I agree.
It seems that the main difference between you and I is that, when we read the Scriptures ( hopefully without any help from men ), the way the words strike our minds appears to be very different, depending upon the passage in question.
Of that I have no doubt.

With respect to this subject of a "Pre-Tribulational Rapture" ( which is what I was taught from pulpits since the age of 12 until I left "Provisionist" Baptist churches at the age of 40 )... I no longer see, in the details, how you arrive at your conclusions.

To me, God's every word simply does not teach it and never has.

 

[37818]

@37818
I have given you the danger but you obviously did not see it. I do think it is probably because you do not believe false teaching is a denial of truth.

Case in point; what did you think about the "day of the Lord" theme that was presented to you and the promise of God to deliver his church from the wrath to come? Is it a valid promise in your estimation?

It is not okay to teach contrary to the scriptures once you have been shown the truth. The light changes your status.

Not all denials of truth pose any danger of salvation.
Pre-trib rapture is a blatant denial of truth. And you don't seem to know why.
There can only be one believer's first resurrection. Revelation 20:6. So there can be none before it.

 

[Dave G]

@JD731
Matthew 24 and Mark 13 lays out, in detail, the general timing of the Lord's gathering His people to Himself.
For example,
The Lord Jesus tells us, step by step, what going to happen and when, starting in Matthew 24:29:

" Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

After the Tribulation...
Then shall appear the sign of the Son in Heaven.
Then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and shall see Him coming in the clouds.
Then shall He send His angels forth and gather His elect, from the four winds and from one end of Heaven to the other.

Mark 13, a parallel reference to this conversation, includes this phrase ( with one added detail, which I've bolded in the text ) at the end, " And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."

Did you catch that?
Then, JD...after the Tribulation.
That's when He will send His angels to gather His sheep...from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of Heaven.
To me, it's quite clear.

There is no "Pre-Tribulational Rapture", since He said that Him sending His angels to gather His elect from both Heaven and earth comes immediately after that Tribulation...
Not before.


Please, sir, look at it again, and carefully.

 

[JD731]

Not all denials of truth pose any danger of salvation.
Pre-trib rapture is a blatant denial of truth. And you don't seem to know why.
There can only be one believer's first resurrection. Revelation 20:6. So there can be none before it.

You have three lines here to present your reasoning, which is to declare that you do not believe in the translation of the church of Jesus Christ, which began on Pentecost as a separate entity with a special calling from Israel and the nations and you declare that I do not seem to know the truth simply because you refer to Re 20:6 without even thinking it is worthy of quoting.

I asked you several questions in my last post to you that you ignored. There is an appointed time, a reserved time, when God will judge the world by Jesus Christ and he made that time a theme of his inspired prophets and a time to purge out sinners leaving few people in it. Over and over again he calls it the wrath of God like no time that has been before or will be afterward. Then, speaking to the church of Jesus Christ through the inspired pen of Paul he says he has saved us for his glory and has delivered us from the wrath to come.

You say there is only one resurrection and I agree with that as I will also agree with you that there is only one God. His coming for the church, his bride, is in the air and we will be translated from earth to heaven in an instant, and I say there is only one wrath of God from which the church can be delivered.

Yo say God cannot and will not and that he has not promised to deliver the church from the wrath to come and you are either in error and cannot follow the logic of the scriptures or you are purposefully denying what is said. In either case you are demonstrably wrong and will not accept correction..

Mt 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

What wrath?

Mt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

That is a prophecy that will not touch the future church.

Lu 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! (the days of the tribulation in context) for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

"this people is Israel.

Ro 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

This wrath of God is a revelation from heaven against unrighteous deeds and actions, not against the saved. As you can see below, God has been holding back his wrath until the time of his wrath.

Ro 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

The broken law of God and the unrepentant heart demands the wrath of God or he is not holy.

Ro 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Ro 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
The law we have broken has been satisfied for us who have trusted in his sacrifice and God has not appointed us to wrath and to be judged with the world. The idea is blasphemous..

Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

The wrath of God does not come on the children of God, it comes on the children of disobedience in whom is no faith.

Re 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Re 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Re 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Re 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Re 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
Re 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
Re 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
Re 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Re 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

There is not a single place in the scriptures that says that God has assigned his own children, who have been born again into his family, to endure the wrath he has reserved for the ungodly. You are making that up because you refuse to believe his words and you teach others not to believe them.

 

[JD731]

@JD731
Matthew 24 and Mark 13 lays out, in detail, the general timing of the Lord's gathering His people to Himself.
For example,
The Lord Jesus tells us, step by step, what going to happen and when, starting in Matthew 24:29:

" Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

After the Tribulation...
Then shall appear the sign of the Son in Heaven.
Then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and shall see Him coming in the clouds.
Then shall He send His angels forth and gather His elect, from the four winds and from one end of Heaven to the other.

Mark 13, a parallel reference to this conversation, includes this phrase ( with one added detail, which I've bolded in the text ) at the end, " And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."

Did you catch that?
Then, JD...after the Tribulation.
That's when He will send His angels to gather His sheep...from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of Heaven.
To me, it's quite clear.

There is no "Pre-Tribulational Rapture", since He said that Him sending His angels to gather His elect from both Heaven and earth comes immediately after that Tribulation...
Not before.


Please, sir, look at it again, and carefully.

Matthew 24 has absolutely nothing to do with the church of Jesus Christ and these words predate the church and is the OT scriptures where we are told it is a mystery hidden from this age (see Eph 3:1-6. It has book end temples in Mt 24:1 and Mt 24:15

Mt 24:1 ¶ And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

This temple was destroyed in 70 AD


Mt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

Neither is the church of Jesus Christ in Judaea. The church of Jesus Christ is a gentile church founded on a Jewish foundation, Jesus Christ being the chief cornerstone.

Think!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Yo say God cannot and will not and that he has not promised to deliver the church from the wrath to come and you are either in error and cannot follow the logic of the scriptures or you are purposefully denying what is said. In either case you are demonstrably wrong and will not accept correction..

I have not observed anyone claiming this. Perhaps I missed it. Will you please show the place?
I think you may be confusing God's temporal punishments of all people with the final judgment of the wicked
We read in Psalm 7:11, 'God is a just judge, and God is angry with the wicked every day.' God does chastise His people (Hebrews 12:5-11), but this chastisement is intended to bring them to repentance. When it does not, it establishes them as not His people. Read Amos 4:6-13. Not long after these words, the Northern kingdom of Israel was conquered by Assyria and its people taken into captivity with no rescue.
When the Lord Jesus returns, the bar will have gone down, there will be no room for repentance, and those not in Christ will be lost forever.