The tribulation, which occurs during the timing of the day of the Lord theme (7 years total) of the prophetic scriptures, is not pior to the translation of the church of Jesus Christ (rapture) and I have not made that claim.
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The Danger of the Denial of the Pre-Trib Translation (Rapture) of the Church of Jesus Christ
- Thread starter JD731
- Start date
How so?
That certainly would be no problem if you define the church of Jesus Christ as God defines it and understand the promises that are unique to the church.
How do you define it?
Blank
Active Member
I would say the church consists of those who are regenerate by the Holy Spirit and by God's Word. As far as the promises that are unique to the church, I'm not sure.
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We are discussing on this thread the translation of "the church." This is a unique doctrine of the church when the Lord comes for us in the air to take us to the Father's house where there are many mansions and where we will be glorified and will live forever in the presence of the Lord. So far few here have any understanding about the purpose of God in this age. The purpose of God in this age is stated in at least 3 chapters in the Pauline epistles but I will quote one from the history of Luke as he quotes James in Acts 15. You should look closely at this and see if the context enlightens your eyes.
Peter speaks;
Ac 15:6 And the apostles and elders (the elders would be members of the seventy (70) of Luke 10) came together for to consider of this matter.
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. (this was in Acts 10)
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them (the gentiles) the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us (Jews);
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the (gentile) disciples (the observance of the Mosaic Law as necessary for salvation), which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we (Jews) shall be saved (by simple faith instead of the works of the law of Moses), even as they (gentiles).
12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
James speaks:
13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After this (after first taking out out of them, the gentiles, a people for his name) I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
Can anybody follow the logic here?
17 That the residue of men (the rest of, the remainder of men) might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
It would be a blessing if someone on the Baptist Board could understand and believe the transitions of God, but alas, it does not seem like they can.
18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood.
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
Blank
Active Member
I understand the concept of the rapture, but I am looking for convincing evidence of a 'pre-trib' rapture, (in the title). I want to believe it, but apart from convincing evidence from God's Word, I'm afraid I can't. The closest I can come (by way of logic) is the GT is designed to bring God's people (the Jews) to repentance, so the Church won't go through double jeopardy, because our life is in Christ.
I'd just be better convinced if my stance was on God's Word rather than on human logic.
Is it your intention to get spooky on me? What kind of logic would you reason with if it were not human logic, you being a human and all? How would you process evidence from anywhere, including the written word without reasoning and logic?
I am totally blown away with this new kind of thinking. Would you please explain it in more detail? It does not make sense to me.
many who hold to pre trib will refer back to its not appointed now unto us to suffer wrath, but they fail to link that reference being to we are not appointed to face eternal wrath of the GWT judgement, not that we cannot and will face tribulations and trouble while in this life!
And they see Great tribulation as time for israel to be purged and made ready for Jesus second coming, so no need for church to hang around!
Blank
Active Member
There is a difference between human logic And God's logic or between God's revelation and Human reasoning.
1 Corinthians 2:10-14 (KJV) But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Again, and simply; evening + morning = one day , only human logic would stretch it out to mean millions of years.
Science works by seeing whereas faith works by hearing.
Romans 10:17 (KJV) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
2 Corinthians 5:7 (KJV) (For we walk by faith, not by sight
Sorry, but I won't bow down to the evolutionary god
Blank
Active Member
Thanks, but how do we know that 'wrath to come' is it not referring to hell itself?
Well, who is God speaking to, chickens? Dogs? Birds? No, none of these. He is speaking to humans. Humans have intellect, reason, and will. Animals and plants do not have these things. The thing we do not have is perfect knowledge. This requires that we must have faith and live with this principle relying on the things we learn to guide us. We have great liberty to choose what we accept as true and what is not.There is a difference between human logic And God's logic or between God's revelation and Human reasoning.
1 Corinthians 2:10-14 (KJV) But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Again, and simply; evening + morning = one day , only human logic would stretch it out to mean millions of years.
Science works by seeing whereas faith works by hearing.
Romans 10:17 (KJV) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
2 Corinthians 5:7 (KJV) (For we walk by faith, not by sight
Sorry, but I won't bow down to the evolutionary god
Look what Jesus says to some men when he, God, speaks to them.
Luke 22:67
Art thou the Christ? tell us. And he said unto them, If I tell you, ye will not believe:
He did not say ye cannot believe, he said ye will not believe. Therefore what you believe about Christ is a choice. He said he will save them who will believe.
Human reasoning will be at the center of the decision to believe or to not believe.
Lk 20:1 And it came to pass, that on one of those days, as he taught the people in the temple, and preached the gospel, the chief priests and the scribes came upon him with the elders,
2 And spake unto him, saying, Tell us, by what authority doest thou these things? or who is he that gave thee this authority?
3 And he answered and said unto them, I will also ask you one thing; and answer me:
4 The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men?
5 And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say, Why then believed ye him not?
6 But and if we say, Of men; all the people will stone us: for they be persuaded that John was a prophet.
7 And they answered, that they could not tell whence it was.
8 And Jesus said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.
Blank, I say you are not using your head and your reasoning is bad. You must have human reasoning because of the above argument. There is no other kind.
That to me would be the wrath of God being experience for all eternity
Blank
Active Member
Put scripture doesn't make that distinction...
1 Thessalonians 1:10 (KJV) And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
Listen up men. On the subject of the translation of the church from earth to heaven to be with Christ and to be delivered from the wrath to come, almost all readers here have decided to not believe it. This in spite of the fact that God spoke all those words telling us he was reserving an appointed time to judge the world and purge it from rebels. He made that information a theme of the prophetic scriptures, adding details with each prophet through nearly 1000 years. Over and over he called this time the time of his wrath and indignation against sin and sinners. But, during these years he has formed the church of Jesus Christ (after his resurrection from the dead) from those who will believe and submit to his authority and will and it is these who he said he would deliver from this wrath.
<<<Full Stop>>>
There is not one (1) prophecy in the OT that is written to or about the church of Jesus Christ. If the day of the LORD begins as wrath from God it does not serve as a warning to the church. The church was not in existence until after [A F T E R] the resurrection of Jesus Christ. The warnings of the wrath to come is to Israel and the nations (heathen). The church of Jesus Christ is a product of the New Testament and includes the saved of Israel during the days of the formation of the church, called the remnant (of Israel) according to the election of grace along with the called out from among the gentiles all those who will believe in Christ. That which is common to both the remnant of Israel and the saved gentiles is not their ethnicity but their common faith in Christ that makes us all one with him.
The church with both Jews and gentiles in one body was hidden from the prophets of old and new and was revealed to Paul, who wrote it's doctrines in 13 letters to the churches (local fellowships) that has been preserved by God. This in no way modifies anything that was revealed anywhere in old or new testaments about the Day of the LORD and his wrath to come. We know the church will be taken before the wrath of God by our protecter, Jesus Christ, and will be brought back with him when the wrath has passed.
To my friends here. Do not let people deceive you about this wonder of God that he calls his wisdom, the church of Jesus Christ.
Who will believe this truth?
<<<Full Stop>>>
There is not one (1) prophecy in the OT that is written to or about the church of Jesus Christ. If the day of the LORD begins as wrath from God it does not serve as a warning to the church. The church was not in existence until after [A F T E R] the resurrection of Jesus Christ. The warnings of the wrath to come is to Israel and the nations (heathen). The church of Jesus Christ is a product of the New Testament and includes the saved of Israel during the days of the formation of the church, called the remnant (of Israel) according to the election of grace along with the called out from among the gentiles all those who will believe in Christ. That which is common to both the remnant of Israel and the saved gentiles is not their ethnicity but their common faith in Christ that makes us all one with him.
The church with both Jews and gentiles in one body was hidden from the prophets of old and new and was revealed to Paul, who wrote it's doctrines in 13 letters to the churches (local fellowships) that has been preserved by God. This in no way modifies anything that was revealed anywhere in old or new testaments about the Day of the LORD and his wrath to come. We know the church will be taken before the wrath of God by our protecter, Jesus Christ, and will be brought back with him when the wrath has passed.
To my friends here. Do not let people deceive you about this wonder of God that he calls his wisdom, the church of Jesus Christ.
Who will believe this truth?
Blank
Active Member
I have not decided, NOT to believe it. (see posts #s 83/87). But as a child of God, all I ask is for Scriptural proof of a pre-trib rapture, with that, I would rejoice in it's truth.
At least give me your favorite verse that points to a pre-trib rapture.
(FWI, I'm not Amil/ Preterist/ PostMil or any other because of the same lack of Scriptural evidence). I tend to lean Historic PreMil., but I am willing to be convinced otherwise.
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You have not been convinced by themes in scripture so far. Why would anyone think you could be convinced by a single verse? Besides, I do not know what historic premil is.
Blank
Active Member
true
I don't much care What others think, God's word is what counts and it takes just one sentence of truth from God's word
Google Historic Premillennialism.
basically it was the majority view help by ECF, as it holds to a literal antichist, great trubulation right before second coming event, that That God will protect and preserve his people through this until tjhe second coming event, same way He protected Israel from the 10 Plagues
Was main view of early church, until Augustine and Rome got Amil as primary view forward due to spirituasing prophecy texts