The Danger of the Denial of the Pre-Trib Translation (Rapture) of the Church of Jesus Christ

[Blank]

I know I know there is a general reason for believing in a pre trip rapture, which would be, the fact that in the book of Revelation, people's hearts are so hard despite all the signs of mercy God gives him, that they refuse to repent. (Rev 9:20-21), which would indicate that the Holy Spirit ceased to woo/convict people. ( as it was in the days of Noah etc.) . Yet, I would like to see some scriptural references directly pointing to a pre rapture.

 

[JD731]

basically it was the majority view help by ECF, as it holds to a literal antichist, great trubulation right before second coming event, that That God will protect and preserve his people through this until tjhe second coming event, same way He protected Israel from the 10 Plagues

Was main view of early church, until Augustine and Rome got Amil as primary view forward due to spirituasing prophecy texts

I mentioned four (4) major prophetic themes of the scriptures and have named two of them, the doctrine of the "day of the Lord" and the doctrine of the "remnant." In the OT They are doctrines that are prominent in the scriptures and the student of the Bible and the mind of God must have at least a working knowledge of these doctrines if he will have basic understanding.

I say that because all Christians for the last two thousand years have been asked to believe and build their knowledge base of God and the Christian faith on the same few words that were written in the first century. Nothing has been added. No new words or revelation. However, the themes that were established before the first Christian century and through the people of Israel, God's people, who alone had his written words and promises, are brought forth into the New Testament as prophecies of the end times because of the transitions of God from old to new.

What was not in the OT scriptures that Israel was charged to read during their national history is the church, a body, that consisted of both Jews and gentiles together and as equal and as brothers and with new doctrines that omitted many things in Israel's faith and practice that they had learned to observe over those OT years.

This church was not revealed to either Jews or gentiles until after Israel had rejected the Messianic claims of Jesus and denied he is the son of God. They, through their rulers, had rejected him during the days of his earthly ministry, only a small number of them believing in him. and the greater number calling for his crucifixion. However, in his grace and mercy and after he rose from the dead he sent his empowered apostles once again to these people and called on them for national repentance and faith with the promise he would restore them as his people and would save them all.

I will excerpt a couple verses to show this is what he did to none but Israel and I will trust you to read the context.

Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Ac 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Because of the nature of Israel as the corporate son of God it is necessary that every one of them are born again before their national and ethical promises can be realized. In other words, the remnant doctrine must have an end. There can not be two Israel's, one saved and the other lost like has been a constant with them throughout their history. The lost Israel must repent and be saved like any other man, by faith in Christ alone. This will one day (the day of the Lord) be realized but we can read the history in the Acts of the Apostles and know that it is not now.

It was not until these people from the temple in Jerusalem officially through their rulers resisted and rejecting the preachers of the resurrected Jesus Christ that the door of faith was opened to the gentiles and God included the gentiles and God gives some reasons in Romans 11 why he did it. Paul the apostle to the gentiles was not even saved until the same year that Israel rejected Jesus in Jerusalem, called by OT prophets, "the city of the great King." He was saved in 37 AD, the year of this rejection of Israel. Then 3 years later a dispensational change was introduced by God, that OT observances of ceremonial laws were to be done away so there can be unity between Jews and gentiles in their worship of the one true God, Jesus Christ.

Paul, after nearly a lifetime of preaching the glorious gospel of Christ to gentiles, would in 58 AD when he wrote his letter to the Romans say these words.

Ro 15:13 ¶ Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.
14 ¶ And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another.
15 Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God,
16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
17 ¶ I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God.
18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,
19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.
20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man’s foundation:

The perfect will of God for Israel was for every one of them to be saved and there be no delay of his kingdom, but, alas, it was not to be. They rejected him and only a remnant were saved. But trust me, God loves Israel and what he did after they rejected him was not more for gentiles than for Israel, but it was so he could save some of Israel even though the nation would be judged for their unbelief and their kingdom promises delayed. You must see God as a merciful, loving, kind, gracious and all wise God. God will providentially bring in circumstances in the earth to eventually accomplish his purpose of saving every seed of Abraham that is living on this earth. We have promises to that end.

If you do not read anything else today, please read Rom 10-11 and note the three entities in those chapters. Israel, the remnant of Israel according to the election of grace, and the gentiles. They are all separate entities in God's present dealings. You will notice that God has emphatically said he has not cast off Israel, but in this present age he is dealing with the remnant and the rest of Israel are not gone, but blinded. There is a difference. He says distinct things to or about each of these entities. (i.e. Ro 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office):

Israel will eventually be absorbed into the nations and become as gentiles, separated from God nationally and as a people and government of God but they will always be of the seed of Abraham because the seed is passed on through the man. The seed of Abraham can never cease as long as one of them is alive and there is at least one fertile woman.

So, the church is not spiritual Israel. It is a gentile church because God counts the Jews as gentiles when they are out of their land. He says they are not his people and you have the Northern kingdom of Israel and the prophecy of Hosea to prove that if you will believe and discern. Jesus Christ is going to marry his gentile bride, the church. The OT has many times typed this with Jewish nobility marrying gentile women. Ruth and Boaz, for instance, and Isaac and Rebekah, Jesse and Rahab, Moses and Zipporah, David and Bathsheba, as examples.

This is the mercy of God on his people Israel after they rejected him. He puts them in a scenario that they can still be saved and brought unto him. Consider this statement in this context;

Ep 3:1 ¶ For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

I do not know if this information strikes you with the same force as it does me but I think this is incredible revelation. This is written 10 years before Judah is scattered by the Romans into the nations and ceases to be a distinct people. The people to whom this is written are in the same predicament that Judah will be shortly, scattered and foreigners and considered as gentiles, yet preserved as Abraham's seed with their covenant promises intact because God lives forever and can bring every one to pass in his own time. These people in this region were of the 10 scattered tribes from 722 AD.

Give these things some thought. God is a gracious God.

 

[Blank]

I mentioned four (4) major prophetic themes of the scriptures and have named two of them, the doctrine of the "day of the Lord" and the doctrine of the "remnant." In the OT They are doctrines that are prominent in the scriptures and the student of the Bible and the mind of God must have at least a working knowledge of these doctrines if he will have basic understanding.

I say that because all Christians for the last two thousand years have been asked to believe and build their knowledge base of God and the Christian faith on the same few words that were written in the first century. Nothing has been added. No new words or revelation. However, the themes that were established before the first Christian century and through the people of Israel, God's people, who alone had his written words and promises, are brought forth into the New Testament as prophecies of the end times because of the transitions of God from old to new.

What was not in the OT scriptures that Israel was charged to read during their national history is the church, a body, that consisted of both Jews and gentiles together and as equal and as brothers and with new doctrines that omitted many things in Israel's faith and practice that they had learned to observe over those OT years.

This church was not revealed to either Jews or gentiles until after Israel had rejected the Messianic claims of Jesus and denied he is the son of God. They, through their rulers, had rejected him during the days of his earthly ministry, only a small number of them believing in him. and the greater number calling for his crucifixion. However, in his grace and mercy and after he rose from the dead he sent his empowered apostles once again to these people and called on them for national repentance and faith with the promise he would restore them as his people and would save them all.

I will excerpt a couple verses to show this is what he did to none but Israel and I will trust you to read the context.

Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Ac 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Because of the nature of Israel as the corporate son of God it is necessary that every one of them are born again before their national and ethical promises can be realized. In other words, the remnant doctrine must have an end. There can not be two Israel's, one saved and the other lost like has been a constant with them throughout their history. The lost Israel must repent and be saved like any other man, by faith in Christ alone. This will one day (the day of the Lord) be realized but we can read the history in the Acts of the Apostles and know that it is not now.

It was not until these people from the temple in Jerusalem officially through their rulers resisted and rejecting the preachers of the resurrected Jesus Christ that the door of faith was opened to the gentiles and God included the gentiles and God gives some reasons in Romans 11 why he did it. Paul the apostle to the gentiles was not even saved until the same year that Israel rejected Jesus in Jerusalem, called by OT prophets, "the city of the great King." He was saved in 37 AD, the year of this rejection of Israel. Then 3 years later a dispensational change was introduced by God, that OT observances of ceremonial laws were to be done away so there can be unity between Jews and gentiles in their worship of the one true God, Jesus Christ.

Paul, after nearly a lifetime of preaching the glorious gospel of Christ to gentiles, would in 58 AD when he wrote his letter to the Romans say these words.

Ro 15:13 ¶ Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.
14 ¶ And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another.
15 Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God,
16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
17 ¶ I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God.
18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,
19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.
20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man’s foundation:

The perfect will of God for Israel was for every one of them to be saved and there be no delay of his kingdom, but, alas, it was not to be. They rejected him and only a remnant were saved. But trust me, God loves Israel and what he did after they rejected him was not smore for gentiles than for Israel, but it was so he could save some of Israel even though the nation would be judged for their unbelief. You must see God as a merciful, loving, kind, gracious and all wise God. God will providentially bring in circumstances in the earth to eventually accomplish his purpose of saving every seed of Abraham that is living on this earth. We have promises to that end.

If you do not read anything else today, please read Rom 10-11 and notre the three entities in those chapters. Israel, the remnant of Israel according to the election of grace, and the gentiles. They are all separate entities in God's present dealings. You will notice that God has emphatically said he has not cast off Israel, but in this present age he is dealing with the remnant and the rest of Israel are not gone, but blinded. There is a difference.

Israel will eventually be absorbed into the nations and become as gentiles, separated nationally and as a people and government of God but they will always be of the seed of Abraham because the seed is passed on through the man. The seed of Abraham can never cease as long as one of them is alive and there is at least one fertile woman.

So, the church is not spiritual Israel. It is a gentile church because God counts the Jews as gentiles when they are out of their land. He says they are not his people and you have the Northern kingdom of Israel and the prophecy of Hosea to prove that if you will believe and discern. Jesus Christ is going to marry his gentile bride, the church. The OT has many times typed this with Jewish nobility marrying gentile women. Ruth and Boaz, for instance, and Isaac and Rebekah, Jesse and Rahab, Moses and Zipporah, David and Bathsheba, as examples.

This is the mercy of God on his people Israel after they rejected him. He puts them in a scenario that they can still be saved and brought unto him. Consider this statement in this context;

Ep 3:1 ¶ For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

I do not know if this information strikes you with the same force as it does me but I think this is incredible revelation. This is written 10 years before Judah is scattered by the Romans into the nations and ceases to be a distinct people. The people to whom this is written are in the same predicament that Judah will be shortly, scattered and foreigners and considered as gentiles, yet preserved as Abraham's seed with their covenant promises intact because God lives forever and can bring every one to pass in his own time. These people in this region were of the 10 scattered tribes from 722 AD.

Give these things some thought. God is a gracious God.

Yet @JesusFan definition and description of pre-millennialism was accurate. I missed your comment about that.

 

[JesusFan]

Yet @JesusFan definition and description of pre-millennialism was accurate. I missed your comment about that.

The consensus majority view before time of Rome and Augustine bringing into the church at large their amil eschatology appeared to be some variation on what we call as Historical premil, as traditionally pre trib premil not really broght in until Darby and popularized thru the Scofield bible itself

 

[JesusFan]

I mentioned four (4) major prophetic themes of the scriptures and have named two of them, the doctrine of the "day of the Lord" and the doctrine of the "remnant." In the OT They are doctrines that are prominent in the scriptures and the student of the Bible and the mind of God must have at least a working knowledge of these doctrines if he will have basic understanding.

I say that because all Christians for the last two thousand years have been asked to believe and build their knowledge base of God and the Christian faith on the same few words that were written in the first century. Nothing has been added. No new words or revelation. However, the themes that were established before the first Christian century and through the people of Israel, God's people, who alone had his written words and promises, are brought forth into the New Testament as prophecies of the end times because of the transitions of God from old to new.

What was not in the OT scriptures that Israel was charged to read during their national history is the church, a body, that consisted of both Jews and gentiles together and as equal and as brothers and with new doctrines that omitted many things in Israel's faith and practice that they had learned to observe over those OT years.

This church was not revealed to either Jews or gentiles until after Israel had rejected the Messianic claims of Jesus and denied he is the son of God. They, through their rulers, had rejected him during the days of his earthly ministry, only a small number of them believing in him. and the greater number calling for his crucifixion. However, in his grace and mercy and after he rose from the dead he sent his empowered apostles once again to these people and called on them for national repentance and faith with the promise he would restore them as his people and would save them all.

I will excerpt a couple verses to show this is what he did to none but Israel and I will trust you to read the context.

Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Ac 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Because of the nature of Israel as the corporate son of God it is necessary that every one of them are born again before their national and ethical promises can be realized. In other words, the remnant doctrine must have an end. There can not be two Israel's, one saved and the other lost like has been a constant with them throughout their history. The lost Israel must repent and be saved like any other man, by faith in Christ alone. This will one day (the day of the Lord) be realized but we can read the history in the Acts of the Apostles and know that it is not now.

It was not until these people from the temple in Jerusalem officially through their rulers resisted and rejecting the preachers of the resurrected Jesus Christ that the door of faith was opened to the gentiles and God included the gentiles and God gives some reasons in Romans 11 why he did it. Paul the apostle to the gentiles was not even saved until the same year that Israel rejected Jesus in Jerusalem, called by OT prophets, "the city of the great King." He was saved in 37 AD, the year of this rejection of Israel. Then 3 years later a dispensational change was introduced by God, that OT observances of ceremonial laws were to be done away so there can be unity between Jews and gentiles in their worship of the one true God, Jesus Christ.

Paul, after nearly a lifetime of preaching the glorious gospel of Christ to gentiles, would in 58 AD when he wrote his letter to the Romans say these words.

Ro 15:13 ¶ Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.
14 ¶ And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another.
15 Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God,
16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
17 ¶ I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God.
18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,
19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.
20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man’s foundation:

The perfect will of God for Israel was for every one of them to be saved and there be no delay of his kingdom, but, alas, it was not to be. They rejected him and only a remnant were saved. But trust me, God loves Israel and what he did after they rejected him was not more for gentiles than for Israel, but it was so he could save some of Israel even though the nation would be judged for their unbelief and their kingdom promises delayed. You must see God as a merciful, loving, kind, gracious and all wise God. God will providentially bring in circumstances in the earth to eventually accomplish his purpose of saving every seed of Abraham that is living on this earth. We have promises to that end.

If you do not read anything else today, please read Rom 10-11 and note the three entities in those chapters. Israel, the remnant of Israel according to the election of grace, and the gentiles. They are all separate entities in God's present dealings. You will notice that God has emphatically said he has not cast off Israel, but in this present age he is dealing with the remnant and the rest of Israel are not gone, but blinded. There is a difference. He says distinct things to or about each of these entities. (i.e. Ro 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office):

Israel will eventually be absorbed into the nations and become as gentiles, separated from God nationally and as a people and government of God but they will always be of the seed of Abraham because the seed is passed on through the man. The seed of Abraham can never cease as long as one of them is alive and there is at least one fertile woman.

So, the church is not spiritual Israel. It is a gentile church because God counts the Jews as gentiles when they are out of their land. He says they are not his people and you have the Northern kingdom of Israel and the prophecy of Hosea to prove that if you will believe and discern. Jesus Christ is going to marry his gentile bride, the church. The OT has many times typed this with Jewish nobility marrying gentile women. Ruth and Boaz, for instance, and Isaac and Rebekah, Jesse and Rahab, Moses and Zipporah, David and Bathsheba, as examples.

This is the mercy of God on his people Israel after they rejected him. He puts them in a scenario that they can still be saved and brought unto him. Consider this statement in this context;

Ep 3:1 ¶ For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

I do not know if this information strikes you with the same force as it does me but I think this is incredible revelation. This is written 10 years before Judah is scattered by the Romans into the nations and ceases to be a distinct people. The people to whom this is written are in the same predicament that Judah will be shortly, scattered and foreigners and considered as gentiles, yet preserved as Abraham's seed with their covenant promises intact because God lives forever and can bring every one to pass in his own time. These people in this region were of the 10 scattered tribes from 722 AD.

Give these things some thought. God is a gracious God.

Is this a essential doctrine that is worthy of elevating to being an issue to divide over then?

 

[JD731]

Is this a essential doctrine that is worthy of elevating to being an issue to divide over then?

We are divided over it. This is not a stand alone doctrine in the scripture. It is not a doctrine that does not require ideas and teachings on other important topics. For instance, one would likely have an opinion on what the church is first before one could make a conclusion on it's destiny. What is the church to you? Is it spiritual Israel like many believe it to be who post here? Does it have prophecies and promises that are distinct from Israel and the nations? Is there really a coming of Christ for the church to save it from the judgement of the day of the Lord by glorifying it with a body that is capable of abiding in the heavenlies?

Often times we use the same words but with entirely different meanings. While the one essential doctrine of salvation is repentance toward God and faith in what Jesus Christ did for us by paying our sin penalty, which is death, and rising from the dead, there is no premium attached to ignorance of his doctrines.

 

[JesusFan]

We are divided over it. This is not a stand alone doctrine in the scripture. It is not a doctrine that does not require ideas and teachings on other important topics. For instance, one would likely have an opinion on what the church is first before one could make a conclusion on it's destiny. What is the church to you? Is it spiritual Israel like many believe it to be who post here? Does it have prophecies and promises that are distinct from Israel and the nations? Is there really a coming of Christ for the church to save it from the judgement of the day of the Lord by glorifying it with a body that is capable of abiding in the heavenlies?

Often times we use the same words but with entirely different meanings. While the one essential doctrine of salvation is repentance toward God and faith in what Jesus Christ did for us by paying our sin penalty, which is death, and rising from the dead, there is no premium attached to ignorance of his doctrines.

But we cannot really know eschatology in fullest sense until and unless it becomes fulfilled

 

[JD731]

But we cannot really know eschatology in fullest sense until and unless it becomes fulfilled

There is much, much more behind us than what lies before us. What have we learned so far?

In the 13 letters of Paul to the gentiles he prayed several prayers for us, most often asking the Father to grant us knowledge and understanding about himself and his ways. If one were to believe that he wrote in his letter on the subjects that he was praying about then he would have a better understanding what they are that are so important. I am going to quote just one of those prayers so you can see the specific prayer requests.

Php 1:9 ¶ And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;
10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;
11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

The day of Christ takes place at the same time as the day of the Lord, but in a different location, in heaven and concerns his church, while the day of the Lord is the judgement on earth.

 

[JD731]

Psalm 110:5
The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.

The day of God's wrath is associated with a day. The day of the LORD. It is always future.

We learn about the LORD coming first to the Mount of Olives. The Mountain will divide in the middle when his foot sets down on it. Then he will enter into the City of Jerusalem through the Eastern Gate and from there he will go out to conquer the nations that are gathered around the city and the blood will run as deep as the horses bridles and he will call for the flesh eating birds to eat the flesh of kings and mighty men.

Read about it here! (the end of the remnant doctrine)

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

One needs to understand from other scriptures that the key here is AFTER, not immediately after.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved, i e delivered: (after the fullness of the gentiles be come in =the church) as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: (not Abraham)

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. (remember, they have been blinded)
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

I am trying to help those of you who want to see more clearly the translation of the church of Jesus Christ and how all of this fits. Here is the whole Psalm 110. It is a Messianic Psalm.

110:1 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2 The Lord shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning:(no doubt a reference to the second birth of Israel) thou hast the dew of thy youth.
4 The Lord hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.
6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.
7 He shall drink of the brook in the way: therefore shall he lift up the head.

 

[Blank]

I am trying to help those of you who want to see more clearly the translation of the church of Jesus Christ and how all of this fits.

That's quite condescending of you, but I think I will have to watch a debate between a pre trib Dispensationalist and a historic pre-Millennialist in order to see both sides of the issue (and hopefully get my question answered)

 

[JesusFan]

That's quite condescending of you, but I think I will have to watch a debate between a pre trib Dispensationalist and a historic pre-Millennialist in order to see both sides of the issue (and hopefully get my question answered)

Historical premil traceable back to ECF, while Pre trib back to Darby

 

[JD731]

Historical premil traceable back to ECF, while Pre trib back to Darby

That is not a true statement. The inspired authors of the scriptures wrote the truth given to them by God. Therefore the truth goes back to God. The problem as I see it remains the fact you and those who miss this are not willing to properly define the church of Jesus Christ and acknowledge that Israel is not cast off forever with the church taking its place, but with Israel being set aside because of unbelief and counted by God as dead during this age while he is forming the church from believers of all the nations as well as individual Jews who will believe and then giving Israel a national burial in the graveyard of the dispersion into the nations.

How many times would God have to say this until you would agree with it?


Matt 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? (this is at the end of his ministry and parable speaking is something new)
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you (the few who believed Jesus) to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them (the greater number, the national rulers) it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

The distinction is drawn here between the two, Israel and the remnant

Rom 8:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation [them which are] my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Life from the dead is a resurrection.

Acts 28:23 ¶ And when they(the Jews in Rome) had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
29 And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.


It is quoted more times but this is enough for now.

I don't know about you in particular but I do understand that Calvinism will not permit adherents to believe in the pretrib rapture because of what you are taught about that system, defined in part by TULIP where sinners are not responsible for believing the gospel of Christ because of a false doctrine called total depravity where the chosen of the system could not have rejected Christ because of the reasons he gave, another one called unconditional election, another called limited atonement where most sinners are simply not selected, and irresistible grace that could not be refused on the one hand and cannot be accepted on the other.

So, I think in many cases the Reformed have the same problem as did the Jews, stubbornness. Acknowledging the truth of the rapture will cause some of you out of necessity to reevaluate your standing. There are more doctrines at stake by believing the rapture of the church. I urge you to consider this truth.

 

[JD731]

That's quite condescending of you, but I think I will have to watch a debate between a pre trib Dispensationalist and a historic pre-Millennialist in order to see both sides of the issue (and hopefully get my question answered)

The Bible says in Psa 119 these words; The entrance of thy words giveth light, it giveth understanding to the simple.

Why not prayerfully ask the scriptures?

 

[JD731]

@JesusFan;@Blank@canadyjd@37818@MartinMarprelate

​

I have advanced two (2) of four (4) major prophetic themes of the prophetic word of God to be considered in the doctrine of the rapture of the church of Jesus Christ. These themes cannot be discarded nor can they be denied by a careful student of the word of God. The teacher who refuses to regard these truths cannot be considered as one to follow and learn ones doctrine from. The two themes I have mention so far by name are 1) the day of the LORD, and 2), the remnant of Israel. I will say that I have given enough information and evidence to establish that they are indeed themes and should be considered as such but I am far from giving a complete study on these subjects. There is a body of doctrine to learn and categorize. In this comment portion I would like to further advance the doctrine of the remnant from the prophetic portion of scripture, although this doctrine begins to manifest itself from the days of Joseph which the Bible terms, "the Law." The use of this word is common through history and many times refers to the preserved of Israel after the judgement of God.

1. 840 – Obadiah -
2. 810 – Joel - 1 time
3. 785 – Jonah
4. 750 – Amos - 3 times
5. 735 – Micah - 6 times
6. 720 – Hosea
7. 690 – Isaiah - 15 times
8. 625 – Zephaniah - 4 times
9. 620 – Nahum
10. 608 – Habakkuk - 1 time
11. 586 – Lamentations -
12. 580 – Jeremiah - 19 times
13. 570 – Ezekiel - 6 times
14. 536 – Daniel -
15. 520 – Haggai - 2 times
16. 520 – Zechariah - 2 times
17. 430 – Malachi -

Matthew - 1 time
Romans - 2
Revelation - 2

Here are some excepts from these preachers

Isaiah 1:9
Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.
Isaiah 10:20
And it shall come to pass in that day (the day of the LORD), that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.
Isaiah 10:21
The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.
Isaiah 46:3
Hearken unto me, O house of Jacob, and all the remnant of the house of Israel, which are borne by me from the belly, which are carried from the womb:

Jeremiah 42:2
And said unto Jeremiah the prophet, Let, we beseech thee, our supplication be accepted before thee, and pray for us unto the Lord thy God, even for all this remnant; (for we are left but a few of many, as thine eyes do behold us)
Jeremiah 23:3-6
3 And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.
4 And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the Lord.
5 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, The Lord Our Righteousness.

Ezekiel 6:8
Yet will I leave a remnant, that ye may have some that shall escape the sword among the nations, when ye shall be scattered through the countries.

Joel 2:32
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call. (remember the phrase, "it shall come to pass" is a key transition phrase in scripture)

Micah 4:4-8
But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.
2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
4 But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it.
5 For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever.
6 In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted;
7 And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.
8 And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem.

Zephaniah 3:13
The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid.

Romans 11:5
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The OT prophets did not see this present age of the gentile church. It was hidden from former ages and we are told this truth plainly in the epistle to the Ephesians. The reason; because there was no national history for them while they were dead and buried. However, they are a nation again so the wisdom is to begin looking in the OT for prophecies that have not come to pass yet because they are certainly cloes to being fulfilled.

 

[JesusFan]

That is not a true statement. The inspired authors of the scriptures wrote the truth given to them by God. Therefore the truth goes back to God. The problem as I see it remains the fact you and those who miss this are not willing to properly define the church of Jesus Christ and acknowledge that Israel is not cast off forever with the church taking its place, but with Israel being set aside because of unbelief and counted by God as dead during this age while he is forming the church from believers of all the nations as well as individual Jews who will believe and then giving Israel a national burial in the graveyard of the dispersion into the nations.

How many times would God have to say this until you would agree with it?


Matt 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? (this is at the end of his ministry and parable speaking is something new)
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you (the few who believed Jesus) to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them (the greater number, the national rulers) it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

The distinction is drawn here between the two, Israel and the remnant

Rom 8:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation [them which are] my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Life from the dead is a resurrection.

Acts 28:23 ¶ And when they(the Jews in Rome) had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
29 And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.


It is quoted more times but this is enough for now.

I don't know about you in particular but I do understand that Calvinism will not permit adherents to believe in the pretrib rapture because of what you are taught about that system, defined in part by TULIP where sinners are not responsible for believing the gospel of Christ because of a false doctrine called total depravity where the chosen of the system could not have rejected Christ because of the reasons he gave, another one called unconditional election, another called limited atonement where most sinners are simply not selected, and irresistible grace that could not be refused on the one hand and cannot be accepted on the other.

So, I think in many cases the Reformed have the same problem as did the Jews, stubbornness. Acknowledging the truth of the rapture will cause some of you out of necessity to reevaluate your standing. There are more doctrines at stake by believing the rapture of the church. I urge you to consider this truth.

Some Calvinists DO hold to a pre trib view, see John macArthur, but its just that pre trib view came about due to Darby 1830.

 

[JesusFan]

@JesusFan;@Blank@canadyjd@37818@MartinMarprelate

​

I have advanced two (2) of four (4) major prophetic themes of the prophetic word of God to be considered in the doctrine of the rapture of the church of Jesus Christ. These themes cannot be discarded nor can they be denied by a careful student of the word of God. The teacher who refuses to regard these truths cannot be considered as one to follow and learn ones doctrine from. The two themes I have mention so far by name are 1) the day of the LORD, and 2), the remnant of Israel. I will say that I have given enough information and evidence to establish that they are indeed themes and should be considered as such but I am far from giving a complete study on these subjects. There is a body of doctrine to learn and categorize. In this comment portion I would like to further advance the doctrine of the remnant from the prophetic portion of scripture, although this doctrine begins to manifest itself from the days of Joseph which the Bible terms, "the Law." The use of this word is common through history and many times refers to the preserved of Israel after the judgement of God.

1. 840 – Obadiah -
2. 810 – Joel - 1 time
3. 785 – Jonah
4. 750 – Amos - 3 times
5. 735 – Micah - 6 times
6. 720 – Hosea
7. 690 – Isaiah - 15 times
8. 625 – Zephaniah - 4 times
9. 620 – Nahum
10. 608 – Habakkuk - 1 time
11. 586 – Lamentations -
12. 580 – Jeremiah - 19 times
13. 570 – Ezekiel - 6 times
14. 536 – Daniel -
15. 520 – Haggai - 2 times
16. 520 – Zechariah - 2 times
17. 430 – Malachi -

Matthew - 1 time
Romans - 2
Revelation - 2

Here are some excepts from these preachers

Isaiah 1:9
Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.
Isaiah 10:20
And it shall come to pass in that day (the day of the LORD), that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.
Isaiah 10:21
The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.
Isaiah 46:3
Hearken unto me, O house of Jacob, and all the remnant of the house of Israel, which are borne by me from the belly, which are carried from the womb:

Jeremiah 42:2
And said unto Jeremiah the prophet, Let, we beseech thee, our supplication be accepted before thee, and pray for us unto the Lord thy God, even for all this remnant; (for we are left but a few of many, as thine eyes do behold us)
Jeremiah 23:3-6
3 And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.
4 And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the Lord.
5 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, The Lord Our Righteousness.

Ezekiel 6:8
Yet will I leave a remnant, that ye may have some that shall escape the sword among the nations, when ye shall be scattered through the countries.

Joel 2:32
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call. (remember the phrase, "it shall come to pass" is a key transition phrase in scripture)

Micah 4:4-8
But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.
2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
4 But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it.
5 For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever.
6 In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted;
7 And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.
8 And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem.

Zephaniah 3:13
The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid.

Romans 11:5
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The OT prophets did not see this present age of the gentile church. It was hidden from former ages and we are told this truth plainly in the epistle to the Ephesians. The reason; because there was no national history for them while they were dead and buried. However, they are a nation again so the wisdom is to begin looking in the OT for prophecies that have not come to pass yet because they are certainly cloes to being fulfilled.

Historical premils such as Spurgeon and myself though DO see national Isreal with a future restoration, but at time of second coming event, and until then, any saved Jew must come to Lord Jesus to get saved and placed inmto NC, as their old one no longer ative for them

 

[xlsdraw]

Historical premil traceable back to ECF, while Pre trib back to Darby

Propaganda, repeated endlessly. Your repeating your reliance on the myth of ECF, Early Church Fathers, is telling.

The Bible Condemns the usurping of the term Father, which is exclusively reserved for God.

The Bible proclaims the priesthood of Believers. With the Holy Spirit as the guide to all truth, never conflicting with God's Word.

 

[JesusFan]

Propaganda, repeated endlessly. Your repeating your reliance on the myth of ECF, Early Church Fathers, is telling.

The Bible Condemns the usurping of the term Father, which is exclusively reserved for God.

The Bible proclaims the priesthood of Believers. With the Holy Spirit as the guide to all truth, never conflicting with God's Word.

Early Church fathers is a recognized title given to the theologians and other important historical figures of the first centuries of the Christian church, used by non Catholics

 

[Blank]

The Bible says in Psa 119 these words; The entrance of thy words giveth light, it giveth understanding to the simple.

Why not prayerfully ask the scriptures?

more condescension, nevermind

 

[JD731]

more condescension, nevermind

Some Calvinists DO hold to a pre trib view, see John macArthur, but its just that pre trib view came about due to Darby 1830.

I have tied two (2) prophetic themes of scripture together, the details of which cannot be determined as being fulfilled at the time I am writing this comment, and these prophecies have applications for Israel and the nations over the whole world. Since they are not complete it leaves us with determining that they are really not true and have no meaning or they are, as some, maybe even you, wil say, are figurative with only a spiritual application to history.
Then I insist, that in the course of revelation during those years, we have a new revelation from God and NT prophets that this "present time" is a time of mysteries. It is called by Jesus himself and detailed as a long extended time as the "mysteries of the kingdom of heaven " in Matthew 13 and other passages in the scriptures. It is a mystery, we learn, because none of the events during this time that are chronicled by Jesus in his seven (7) parables in the chapter are a subject of OT prophets yet the time frame for these events are given in a growing season, from the time of planting until the time of reaping and subsequently disposing of the harvest. This harvest is not the end of all harvests, but it is the end of this crop which began with the sower sowing seeds. This new growing season comes immediately after the failure of the previous harvest. That harvest did not fail because it was not ripe and ready and a good harvest, it was because there were not enough reapers to gather the harvest. You can read the previous 12 chapters in Matthew's gospel to see that is true, but I will give you one or two verses by Jesus about that crop.

Matt 9:37 Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few;
38 Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.

Here is the end of the harvest of this present growing season from the Lord himself.

Matt 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world. (I suggest reading Eph 3 here)

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. (this is the end of parable #4 of 7, Jesus changed locations from the seaside to the house and spoke 3 more parables. This is important and is not without significance)

37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world (age); and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

This is as far as I am going to take this now but understand that this mystery form of the kingdom was established because the kingdom of God was rejected by Israel when they rejected King Jesus, the son of God and the Messiah of Israel. The rejection was national through the rulers but it was not total and therefore those who did believe in him entered into the mystery form of the kingdom through a new birth while the King was away.

Lk 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost. (spoken in the last week of the ministry on earth of Jesus Christ and after the rulers had already decided to kill him)

11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman (Jesus) went into a far country (Heaven) to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return (to earth.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds).
26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Is this you?


1 Cor 4:1 Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.
2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.

I might introduce a third prophetic theme soon that is denied and rejected by most denominations. It is important that one does not deny and teach against God's promises in his prophecies. Doing so indicates a larger and perhaps a more profound problem.