The Danger of the Denial of the Pre-Trib Translation (Rapture) of the Church of Jesus Christ

[JD731]

Don't. Because that has not happened.

Did you know that Re 19 comes before Re 20?

This scene is in heaven before the return to earth.
Re 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Someone besides the bride is invited to the wedding. We have been given a list in the NT scriptures.

 

[37818]

Is that happening at same time, as part of the same second coming event?

There is only the one second appearing, Hebrews 9:28.

 

[37818]

Did you know that Re 19 comes before Re 20?

In presentation, chapter 19 is before a chapter 20. How it is written.

 

[JD731]

There is only the one second appearing, Hebrews 9:28.

You are one seriously stubborn dude. I can see you don't care about any mysteries of God. But you are right about the appearing of God. This is a one time thing.

Appearing is sight and men can see him.

Look at this;

Re 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him (how many eyes shall see him?), and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth (how many kindreds of the earth?) shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

This is how one defines "appearing.

Nothing about sounds in in Re 19. You should read it because there is much to see. He is visible to all.

But in 1 Thess there is nothing to see but plenty to hear.

1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Those who are not saved will not hear the sounds clearly that day. They certainly will not see him. I am reminded of the following;

Joh 12:28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.
29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.

 

[37818]

You are one seriously stubborn dude. I can see you don't care about any mysteries of God. But you are right about the appearing of God. This is a one time thing.

The ONLY Biblical Scripture which explicitly says "second" appearing is Hebrews 9:28. A second appearing can only occur once.

 

[JD731]

In presentation, chapter 19 is before a chapter 20. How it is written.

What does that even mean? That all historians can be chronological but God? Prophecy is history written in advance, I am told.

I do appreciate the discussion on Bible issues with folks, like the doctrines of the church of Jesus Christ, of which I am a member by his grace. But I am sad to see men with brilliant minds willingly set logic and reason aside to believe doctrines that are not true. You, for instance, believe in a post trib rapture of the church of Jesus Christ, you say, even when you cannot defend such a doctrine with a reasonable and scriptural argument, or at least you are unwilling to, and if I understand you correctly you reject a thousand year reign of Jesus Christ on the earth even after you read plain and easy to understand words saying as much in Re 20. Some verses you believe are literal like Re 20:4.

But wait, you only believe part of Re 20:4 is literal, the resurrection part but you do not believe the thrones and reigning for a thousand years or Satan in the bottomless pit. My personal descrption for this is "sliding hermeneutics." If something in the text advances your preconceptions you latch on to it and if not you can always make it figurative and spiritual.

This practice makes me wonder if you believe in the resurrection of the unjust (Jn 5:25) which is the second resurrection in this chapter with one thousand years between. Why would anyone believe and fear this? Most everything else in this chapter has been ruled by modern Christians as not acually true, why would this resurrection be true?

The problem I believe, is that the church of Jesus Christ, with it's unique and literal promises and doctrines and predestination to glory at it's translation from earth to heaven, has been eliminated in the thinking of denominational Christianity and it has done great harm. It has caused unbelief in denominational Christianity.

Now, I do not know for sure what you believe because your general MO is just pick out a verse or two without context and post them for some purpose known only to you and so if I misrepresent what you believe you can forgive me. I have tried to accurately understand based on your one liners.

I could not help from noticing that chapter 20 began with a conjunction, "and." I learned a long time ago the function of a conjuction If the previous thoughts were tied together as a chronological series of events then the conjunction continued that series chronologically. It is logical and reasonable to do so, especially in the absence of any language that would modify these events into a type or figure of something else. I could not find any such language.

So, my conclusion is the church is coming back to earth with Christ, having been translated before the tribulation just like the apostle Paul said it would be and then these who were killed during the tribulation who were saved will be resurrected from the dead to reign on earth with Christ for one thousand years.

None of you men have given me enough reason to doubt it.

 

[37818]

What does that even mean? That all historians can be chronological but God? Prophecy is history written in advance, I am told.

No. The book of Revelation gives parallel events. Revelation 6:17, For the great day of his wrath is come . . . .
Revelation 11:18, . . . and thy wrath is come, . . .
Revelation 14:10, . . . The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God . . . .

 

[JesusFan]

What does that even mean? That all historians can be chronological but God? Prophecy is history written in advance, I am told.

I do appreciate the discussion on Bible issues with folks, like the doctrines of the church of Jesus Christ, of which I am a member by his grace. But I am sad to see men with brilliant minds willingly set logic and reason aside to believe doctrines that are not true. You, for instance, believe in a post trib rapture of the church of Jesus Christ, you say, even when you cannot defend such a doctrine with a reasonable and scriptural argument, or at least you are unwilling to, and if I understand you correctly you reject a thousand year reign of Jesus Christ on the earth even after you read plain and easy to understand words saying as much in Re 20. Some verses you believe are literal like Re 20:4.

But wait, you only believe part of Re 20:4 is literal, the resurrection part but you do not believe the thrones and reigning for a thousand years or Satan in the bottomless pit. My personal descrption for this is "sliding hermeneutics." If something in the text advances your preconceptions you latch on to it and if not you can always make it figurative and spiritual.

This practice makes me wonder if you believe in the resurrection of the unjust (Jn 5:25) which is the second resurrection in this chapter with one thousand years between. Why would anyone believe and fear this? Most everything else in this chapter has been ruled by modern Christians as not acually true, why would this resurrection be true?

The problem I believe, is that the church of Jesus Christ, with it's unique and literal promises and doctrines and predestination to glory at it's translation from earth to heaven, has been eliminated in the thinking of denominational Christianity and it has done great harm. It has caused unbelief in denominational Christianity.

Now, I do not know for sure what you believe because your general MO is just pick out a verse or two without context and post them for some purpose known only to you and so if I misrepresent what you believe you can forgive me. I have tried to accurately understand based on your one liners.

I could not help from noticing that chapter 20 began with a conjunction, "and." I learned a long time ago the function of a conjuction If the previous thoughts were tied together as a chronological series of events then the conjunction continued that series chronologically. It is logical and reasonable to do so, especially in the absence of any language that would modify these events into a type or figure of something else. I could not find any such language.

So, my conclusion is the church is coming back to earth with Christ, having been translated before the tribulation just like the apostle Paul said it would be and then these who were killed during the tribulation who were saved will be resurrected from the dead to reign on earth with Christ for one thousand years.

None of you men have given me enough reason to doubt it.

God could also have the church "raptured" and taken up when th witnesses are physically resurrected after death, or end great tribulation when Lord Jesus returns as then Paul stated souls and bodies will be reunited

 

[JD731]

No. The book of Revelation gives parallel events. Revelation 6:17, For the great day of his wrath is come . . . .
Revelation 11:18, . . . and thy wrath is come, . . .
Revelation 14:10, . . . The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God . . . .

You know, 37818, there is really no excuse to be confused about the wrath of God in the great day of it's coming.

There is no doubt that the Revelation of Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of the centuries long prophetic theme of the "day of the Lord" judgement, which I have detailed in scriptural quotes in post #30 on this thread is "coming," and that it is defined singularly as the day of his wrath against sinners. Now, you have posted the only scriptures in the whole Bible that has declared in the present tense that the great day of his wrath is come while at the same time ignoring the theme of the day of the Lord, and the promises, which I have also posted, that says God will deliver his church from this day of wrath to come.

The day of the Lord in scripture is a "theme." The theme has NOTHING to do with the church of Jesus Christ or any developments of this present age (Ga 1:4). This age was not seen by any of the OT prophets who wrote of the day of the Lord. Therefore, they did not see the church of Jesus Christ. How many times would God need to say the following before someone would step up to the plate and believe it. Read it here;


Ep 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

You will see if you keep reading that the dispensation of the grace of God takes place in an age of it's own.

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

(the promise of the Spirit was a promise to the nation of Israel in the OT, but not to the gentiles).

This age and the events in it are not the subject of the OT ages. In the context of the prophecies of Israel and the nations, it is like this age never even existed. All the players of the OT ages are in this age, Israel and the nations but the ministry of the Holy Spirit of God is not known until God through the apostle Paul makes it known in his 13 letters. The requirements for this age to be possible is the gospel of Jesus Christ, his death, burial, and resurrection. It is the only way it is possible. Do you realize that every man , woman, boy, and girl, could be saved through Christ by believing his gospel and so men are without excuse if they eventually come under the wrath of God?

Look at this;

Ephesians 3:9
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world (age - this age) hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

To say the church in this age is not the subject of OT prophecy is not to say the church is not in the OT at all. We are told it is hid in God. It is there in the metaphors of God. This is the very way that God confirms his truths to the minds of men and answers to why an unsaved man, without the Spirit of God indwelling him cannot understand these truths. Understanding these types and metaphors requires the historical events come to pass before they come clear.

Rom 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

Not even the angels of heaven knew of this age and they could certainly read the OT scriptures.

Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, 11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed IN Christ Jesus our Lord:

In Christ, not by Christ. The purpose of God, which he did not make known until the "now" of this age is to form his bride.

All the prophecies of the Revelation, including chapters 1-3 concerns things that will transpire after this age is complete and men are called to account. The church is called into heaven in Re 4 after Jesus Christ assesses it through the age. Many of it's individual members will be exposed as unworthy because they were not saved and will not go.. The wrath of God does come until chapter 6.

A refresher for your consideration:

It is mentioned by name 31 times in 33 verses in 15 Bible books by 12 different authors
It has not happened yet. It remains a future event.

Here are some excepts form the above verses to ponder;

Zep 1:18 in the day of the LORD’S wrath;
Zep 2:2 in the day of the LORD’S anger;
Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
Zep 1:8 And it shall come to pass in the day of the LORD’S sacrifice,
Ob 1:15 For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen:
Am 5:20 Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?
Joe 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
Joe 2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
Joe 1:15 Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.
Eze 30:3 For the day is near, even the day of the LORD is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen.
La 2:22 Thou hast called as in a solemn day my terrors round about, so that in the day of the LORD’S anger none escaped nor remained:
Jer 46:10 For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries:
Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
Isa 2:12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:

This is not a 24 hour day, but it is a day as the Lord counts days.

 

[37818]

.

You know, 37818, there is really no excuse to be confused about the wrath of God in the great day of it's coming.

You need to ask yourself that very question. But you cannot.

This one event Matthew 24:29 follows the tribulation and results with God's wrath per Revelation 6:12-17. And is mentioned in 9 other Scriptures, Old and New Testament.

 

[JD731]

.

You need to ask yourself that very question. But you cannot.

This one event Matthew 24:29 follows the tribulation and results with God's wrath per Revelation 6:12-17. And is mentioned in 9 other Scriptures, Old and New Testament.

Think!

The place for the Jews is in Palestine but they are presently scattered all over the world. Those who are in Palestine currently and during the tribulation mentioned in this chapter are going to be driven out of the land and Jesus warns in Matt 24 that a deadly event will happen during the tribulation that will change their lives and he tells them what to do when it happens. I will quote him saying it. Having described the conditions leading up to it he says this;

Matt 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end (of the tribulation), the same shall be saved (delivered).
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end (of the tribulation) come.
Note: This is the end of the first half of the 7 year tribulation.

This is the beginning of the second 3 1/2 years, the wrath of God, the great tribulation.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand):

Really! You are going to teach this to the church of Jesus Christ? This is our instruction?

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

This is what is so frustrating about you guys. The scriptures do not need to make sense in your system, and you do not care. You have one verse that you camp out on. Your minds are blinded by the books you read, I think.

The translation in this chapter has nothing to do with the church of Jesus Christ. These men to whom he spoke these words that were spoken on the day we call Wednesday before Jesus was crucified on the day we call Friday and the men to whom he spoke them did not even believe Jesus Christ had risen from the dead later on Sunday when they were told by eye witnesses.

None of the following things happened at the translation of the church, which took place before the tribulation;
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

This is Re 1:5
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This is the saved of his nation, Israel, who were scattered into the nations of the world.
Eph 3:5 Which (the church) in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Let me just say here that the reason Israel was taken by such a surprise in the middle of the week is because of this prophecy of Jesus Christ. -Joh 5:43 I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

This man of sin comes in as a lamb and convinces this people that he is the Christ and they receive him. This is why the Revelator says that the day of his wrath comes as a thief in the night. It is totally unexpected that this man who they thought was their savior had become their executioner in a day. As soon as they learn this man presents himself as the abomination of desolation they are to leave Jerusalem and Judaea immediately if their lives are to be spared.

When Jesus Christ returns 3 1/2 years later just in the nick of time to rescue Israel who is about to perish in their entirety and puts down the rebellion and delivers his people, he sends his angels into the nations to bring back his people, who had been scattered, to their inheritance, the land of Israel and establishes his Kingdom. The church of Jesus Christ returns with Jesus to the earth and to the marriage supper of the Lamb, which I think is the inauguration of his millennial kingdom and rules and reigns with him.

Jesus Christ has not revealed the church in this age which Paul calls a past age.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Ps 115:16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD’S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.

 

[JD731]

I posted this thread to call attention to the danger of church organizations who fail to properly identify the church of Jesus Christ and thus confuse the instructions and promises to us, the body of Christ, with the prophecies and warnings of other entities. There seems to be no one who has posted on this thread, with the exception of maybe two, who can biblically define the church of Jesus Christ. Everyone, it seems, believes the church to be "spiritual Israel." Nothing could be farther from the truth.

This is the problem. If one does not know what the church of Jesus Christ is, how can they defend its doctrines? What can one really do to help people who have been told in scripture for 904 years that God has prepared a time in which he will pour his wrath upon sinful men in order to purge the world of them, but then says that he will deliver his church, which is his body, from the wrath to come in several different places. He says he will resurrect it, change it, glorify it and then translate it from earth to heaven in a moment in the twinkling of an eye.

I think we are witnessing the end of this age now. The whole lump is leavened. In the tares and wheat parable in Matt 13 Jesus gave seven parables called the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven and it is set forth as a Sower sowing seeds in his field, beginning in Jerusalem, then Judaea, then Samaria, then the world. The seed did really well in the world (which is the definition of the field), but an adversary came and sowed tares, a plant that resembled the wheat but had no fruit, among the wheat. Both are yet growing together but near harvest time the sower has instructed his workers to go and bundle the tares into bundles to burn them, but to gather his wheat into his barn. We find out the wheat is the saved people, the tares are the unsaved, cults, religions, denominations, etc. The wheat is harvested before the bundles are burned in the fires of the great tribulation on the day of the Lord. We know from reading our Bibles that the church is raptured ahead of the fire.


This is the second of seven parables
24 ¶ Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. (the wheat is in the barn before the bundles are burned)

Here is the sense of it;

34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

This was spoken to the multitude from the ship at the seaside. He gives 4 parables to them, but he interprets this parable after he and his disciples go into the house and his interpretation is to them, plus the othe three parables.

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil (See 2 Cor 11 here); the harvest is the end of the world (aion = age) ; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.



Parable #5
Treasure hid in the field - this is Israel buried in the graveyard of the nations, under ground with someone paying the ultimate price for them
Ps 135:4 For the LORD hath chosen Jacob unto himself, and Israel for his peculiar treasure.

Parable #6
A merchant man seeking goodly pearls and finds one of great price and then sells all he has and buys it.
Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Parable #7
A net cast into the sea (the sea is a metaphor for the people of the earth) for the purpose of gathering the good and bad, keeping the good and casting the bad away. Read Matt 25 here.

This is the mystery form of the kingdom while both Israel and King Jesus is out of the land of Israel but they will both return and be in it again at the same time.

Acts 3:18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. (cast the bad away)
24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Soon we will need to look at the other two prophetic themes of the scriptures. So far we have looked at the "day of the LORD" and the" remnant."

I might start a new thread to deal with those.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I am just skeptical that it comes before a Tribulation, a 1000 year literal kingdom and a second return for an epic battle followed by the destruction of everything.

It is the "Pre-Trib" more than the "Rapture" that I am concerned that people may not be handling scripture correctly. [Not that I care enough to even "strain" fellowship over the issue (let alone break fellowship)]

I am a "pan-Tribulationist" ... I believe that it will all "pan out in the end."

So am I but why discuss it then….why waste time?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Right or wrong in the argument, that is an incredible list that provikes one to stop and think!

Thank you for that.
[I'm still chewing the information over.]

Yea it does provike …that it does

 

[JD731]

@atpollard - @Earth Wind and Fire

Thread Note:

No one should ever be a pan - tribulationalist/millenniialist because of the severity of the judgement of the day of the LORD. Our Lord Jesus warns that the tribulation would be a time on the earth like none before it or none after it. This would include the Noah days. There are at least 8 billion people on the earth now and if it began today and 3/4 of the earth's population perished in the great tribulation, 1260 days, that equates to about 5.75 million average per day.

Isaiah 24:6
Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.

Isaiah 24 is in a series of chapters where our Lord is cataloguing "burdens" of several nations, beginning with Babylon in Isa 13. A burden is a heavy weight that is difficult if not impossible to bear. These burdens show us the end and judgements of these nations. Remember, the "day of the LORD" judgements are a recompense of the nations that have mistreated his nation Israel through the years and a payback for their pride. There is a good possibility that the 10 nation confederacy of the Antichrist in Re 13 that comes up out of the earth is a reconstitution of these nations into a last days confederacy ruled over by Satan and his two men.

Re 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

This is not an already existing confederacy but one that rises out of the sea mid trib. The horns are kings.

Understanding these things should serve to give us the sense of urgency, no?

Jeremiah 46:10
For this is the day of the Lord God of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord God of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.

It looks like a resurrection of nations to me.

 

[JD731]

The ONLY Biblical Scripture which explicitly says "second" appearing is Hebrews 9:28. A second appearing can only occur once.

I think I am right when I say that the word "appearing" is most often defining the second "coming" to the earth of Jesus Christ. This does not happen at the translation of the church of Jesus Christ to glory. There, the Lord meets us in the air and not every eye sees him. Unsaved do not even hear him with clarity.

Here is an example of the word "appear" in the context of the Lord returning to earth.

1 Peter 1:7
That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

1 Peter 5:4
And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away

Hebrews 9:28
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

All these examples are not in the context of the church of Jesus Christ but are in the context of ethnic Israel. Peter writes his letters to the "strangers" scattered abroad. That is the strangers of his own people. Peter was not sent to gentiles. (see Ga2) His letters were not written to them, but this generation of them are in the church of Jesus Christ. He would have returned at the end of this generation had they repented as a people.

Here is the first appearing to save sinners.
2 Timothy 1:10
But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

Here is the second appearing when he returns to the earth;

1. 2 Timothy 4:1
   I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
   
   
2. 2 Timothy 4:8
   Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Timothy is the pastor of the church in Ephesus. His mother is a Jew, his father a gentile. Ephesus is in Asia Minor. It is where the ten tribes are. This is the reason he is using this word in this context. Those strangers who are of ethnic Israel are still considered gentiles by God because they are cut off from their covenants by the simple fact they are out of their land and God has said of them "no people."

In Titus; Island of Crete

Titus 2:13
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

The blessed hope is the translation of the church and the glorios appearing is the second coming of Christ. Both views in one verse.

For his mention of the first coming of Christ, see here;

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Titus 3:4
But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

I hope this will help you see the wonderful wisdom of our God and the need to rightly divide the word of God.

 

[37818]

I think I am right when I say that the word "appearing" is most often defining the second "coming" to the earth of Jesus Christ. This does not happen at the translation of the church of Jesus Christ to glory. There, the Lord meets us in the air and not every eye sees him. Unsaved do not even hear him with clarity.

Here is an example of the word "appear" in the context of the Lord returning to earth.

1 Peter 1:7
That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

1 Peter 5:4
And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away

Hebrews 9:28
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

All these examples are not in the context of the church of Jesus Christ but are in the context of ethnic Israel. Peter writes his letters to the "strangers" scattered abroad. That is the strangers of his own people. Peter was not sent to gentiles. (see Ga2) His letters were not written to them, but this generation of them are in the church of Jesus Christ. He would have returned at the end of this generation had they repented as a people.

Here is the first appearing to save sinners.
2 Timothy 1:10
But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

Here is the second appearing when he returns to the earth;

1. 2 Timothy 4:1
   I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
   
   
2. 2 Timothy 4:8
   Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Timothy is the pastor of the church in Ephesus. His mother is a Jew, his father a gentile. Ephesus is in Asia Minor. It is where the ten tribes are. This is the reason he is using this word in this context. Those strangers who are of ethnic Israel are still considered gentiles bu God because they are cut off from their covenants by the simple fact they are out of their land and God has said of them "no people."

In Titus; Island of Crete

Titus 2:13
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

The blessed hope is the translation of the church and the glorios appearing is the second coming of Christ. Both views in one verse.

For his mention of the first coming of Christ, see here;

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Titus 3:4
But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

I hope this will help you see the wonderful wisdom of our God and the need to rightly divide the word of God.

Titus 2:13-14, Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

1 John 3:2, Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

We believe the same Scriptures. We have a different understanding of them.

I believe in only the one second appearing.

 

[JD731]

I believe in only the one second appearing.

That is what I believe as well. The apostle Paul, when he is faithfully exercising his peculiar calling of revealing the mystery of the church and it's doctrines, did not say anywhere that it's gathering and translation from earth to heaven was an appearing for the world to see. The opposite is true. The day of the LORD comes as a thief in the night. Thieves do not announce their coming and they take only what is valuable. (like maybe a "Pearle of great price").

1 Thessalonians 5:2
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. (the word "as" lets you know this is a metaphor).

Check the context. This is immediately after the translation of the church and also explanation of it. It is because the church is of the day and it is not asleep. (unless portions of it have been reading modern day eschatology authors who have strong Calvinist and Baptist Reformed leanings and have made up a bunch of doctrines to fit their own narratives). The day of the Lord begins as all Jewish days begin, in the evening, at sundown. It is the seventh day of human history. It is the sabbath day. It has a morning that will dawn as the day of rest without any rebels in it and Jesus Christ will sit on his throne in Jerusalem and the church will be there with him in glorified bodies exactly like his glorified body, not restricted to physical laws and during this time the scriptures informs us that the nights during this time will be as bright as the day and the days will be seven times brighter than our current days. The population of the earth at the beginning of this day will be redeemed and those who were alive at the end of the great tribulation and were saved. Those who are born during this day will need to be redeemed. Not all will be and they, the unsaved, will populate the released Satan army at the end of the sabbath before the beginning of the "day of God," which is an eternal day with no night there.

Peter talks about the end of the day of the Lord and the beginning of the day of God. Here!

2 Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Read Re 20:11-15 here. (the end of one day is the beginning of the next)

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Titus 2:13-14, Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

1 John 3:2, Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

We believe the same Scriptures. We have a different understanding of them.

Not all resurrected saints are called sons of God, but all resurrected saints are redeemed. Only the church of Jesus Christ will have glorified bodies like the body of Jesus Christ. The church is uniquely his body and will obviously be with him where he is for eternity.

You need to learn to first believe the words of God and then learn to pivot in your thinking when God pivots. This is good advice but I doubt anyone here will receive it. I have outlined my theological position on the end times and I have yet to receive a single like.

1 John 3:1
Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

John addressed this letter to "the little children."

Think on these things and if you agree, give me a like.

 

[JesusFan]

That is what I believe as well. The apostle Paul, when he is faithfully exercising his peculiar calling of revealing the mystery of the church and it's doctrines, did not say anywhere that it's gathering and translation from earth to heaven was an appearing for the world to see. The opposite is true. The day of the LORD comes as a thief in the night. Thieves do not announce their coming and they take only what is valuable. (like maybe a "Pearle of great price").

1 Thessalonians 5:2
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. (the word "as" lets you know this is a metaphor).

Check the context. This is immediately after the translation of the church and also explanation of it. It is because the church is of the day and it is not asleep. (unless portions of it have been reading modern day eschatology authors who have strong Calvinist and Baptist Reformed leanings and have made up a bunch of doctrines to fit their own narratives). The day of the Lord begins as all Jewish days begin, in the evening, at sundown. It is the seventh day of human history. It is the sabbath day. It has a morning that will dawn as the day of rest without any rebels in it and Jesus Christ will sit on his throne in Jerusalem and the church will be there with him in glorified bodies exactly like his glorified body, not restricted to physical laws and during this time the scriptures informs us that the nights during this time will be as bright as the day and the days will be seven times brighter than our current days. The population of the earth at the beginning of this day will be redeemed and those who were alive at the end of the great tribulation and were saved. Those who are born during this day will need to be redeemed. Not all will be and they, the unsaved, will populate the released Satan army at the end of the sabbath before the beginning of the "day of God," which is an eternal day with no night there.

Peter talks about the end of the day of the Lord and the beginning of the day of God. Here!

2 Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Read Re 20:11-15 here. (the end of one day is the beginning of the next)

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.


Not all resurrected saints are called sons of God, but all resurrected saints are redeemed. Only the church of Jesus Christ will have glorified bodies like the body of Jesus Christ. The church is uniquely his body and will obviously be with him where he is for eternity.

You need to learn to first believe the words of God and then learn to pivot in your thinking when God pivots. This is good advice but I doubt anyone here will receive it. I have outlined my theological position on the end times and I have yet to receive a single like.

1 John 3:1
Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

John addressed this letter to "the little children."

Think on these things and if you agree, give me a like.

The one second coming would then be the so called Rapture actually being the Second Coming event occuring

 

[JD731]

The one second coming would then be the so called Rapture actually being the Second Coming event occuring

You are not trying to follow the logic of the scriptures with faith in what is said and with good and sound reasoning. It is not required to understand and believe the translation of the church of Jesus Christ to be saved from the penalty of sins, which is the second death in the lake of fire, but if you will be a teacher of the word of God, teaching what he calls the deep things of God, your mind must be enlightened by the Spirit with the mind of Christ. Sound doctrine is important to God.

2 Tim 2:1 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

The things Paul taught primarily were church doctrines, the mysteries of God.

1 Cor 4:1 Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.
2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.
3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

Remember that Paul said in Ephesians 1-3 that he was given the doctrines of the church by revelation from Jesus Christ. He did not learn them by reading the OT scriptures because they were hidden in past ages. They were mysteries hidden in God. They could not be learned any other way, and I believe revelation to some degree is still required in individuals else we would all be on the same page with understanding them. Even unsaved men would know them.

I suggest you question everything you have learned from the Reformed.