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The Danger of the Denial of the Pre-Trib Translation (Rapture) of the Church of Jesus Christ

37818

Well-Known Member
That is what I believe as well. The apostle Paul, when he is faithfully exercising his peculiar calling of revealing the mystery of the church and it's doctrines, did not say anywhere that it's gathering and translation from earth to heaven was an appearing for the world to see. The opposite is true. The day of the LORD comes as a thief in the night. Thieves do not announce their coming and they take only what is valuable. (like maybe a "Pearle of great price").

1 Thessalonians 5:2
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. (the word "as" lets you know this is a metaphor).

Check the context. This is immediately after the translation of the church and also explanation of it. It is because the church is of the day and it is not asleep. (unless portions of it have been reading modern day eschatology authors who have strong Calvinist and Baptist Reformed leanings and have made up a bunch of doctrines to fit their own narratives). The day of the Lord begins as all Jewish days begin, in the evening, at sundown. It is the seventh day of human history. It is the sabbath day. It has a morning that will dawn as the day of rest without any rebels in it and Jesus Christ will sit on his throne in Jerusalem and the church will be there with him in glorified bodies exactly like his glorified body, not restricted to physical laws and during this time the scriptures informs us that the nights during this time will be as bright as the day and the days will be seven times brighter than our current days. The population of the earth at the beginning of this day will be redeemed and those who were alive at the end of the great tribulation and were saved. Those who are born during this day will need to be redeemed. Not all will be and they, the unsaved, will populate the released Satan army at the end of the sabbath before the beginning of the "day of God," which is an eternal day with no night there.

Peter talks about the end of the day of the Lord and the beginning of the day of God. Here!

2 Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Read Re 20:11-15 here. (the end of one day is the beginning of the next)

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.


Not all resurrected saints are called sons of God, but all resurrected saints are redeemed. Only the church of Jesus Christ will have glorified bodies like the body of Jesus Christ. The church is uniquely his body and will obviously be with him where he is for eternity.

You need to learn to first believe the words of God and then learn to pivot in your thinking when God pivots. This is good advice but I doubt anyone here will receive it. I have outlined my theological position on the end times and I have yet to receive a single like.

1 John 3:1
Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

John addressed this letter to "the little children."

Think on these things and if you agree, give me a like.
1 Thessalonians 4:16, For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Matthew 24:31, And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet,

Revelation 20:6, . . . the first resurrection: . . .

John 6:40, . . . every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Corinthians 15:52, . . . for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
 
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JesusFan

Well-Known Member
You are not trying to follow the logic of the scriptures with faith in what is said and with good and sound reasoning. It is not required to understand and believe the translation of the church of Jesus Christ to be saved from the penalty of sins, which is the second death in the lake of fire, but if you will be a teacher of the word of God, teaching what he calls the deep things of God, your mind must be enlightened by the Spirit with the mind of Christ. Sound doctrine is important to God.

2 Tim 2:1 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

The things Paul taught primarily were church doctrines, the mysteries of God.

1 Cor 4:1 Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.
2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.
3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

Remember that Paul said in Ephesians 1-3 that he was given the doctrines of the church by revelation from Jesus Christ. He did not learn them by reading the OT scriptures because they were hidden in past ages. They were mysteries hidden in God. They could not be learned any other way, and I believe revelation to some degree is still required in individuals else we would all be on the same page with understanding them. Even unsaved men would know them.

I suggest you question everything you have learned from the Reformed.
I did not get this from reformed, but from reading greatest Baptist of all time, Charles Spurgeon concerning biblical eschatology
 

JD731

Well-Known Member
1 Thessalonians 4:16, For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Matthew 24:31, And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet,

Revelation 20:6, . . . the first resurrection: . . .

John 6:40, . . . every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Corinthians 15:52, . . . for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Are you set in stone that your definition of the church of Jesus Christ is not a mystery as Paul the apostle claims and is indeed the same and equal with any and all other entities that have obtained God's salvation in the scriptures and has no special doctrines that apply specifically to it? That is what I think you are attempting to get across in your cross context posts. The return of Christ to the earth to be King is a matter of several OT prophecies so there is no applcation for this?

Ep 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

You are saying unequivocally that the body of Christ is being raised from the dead in Re 20:4-6, where the language is thus:


Re 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Rev 20:1
And (remember what is the function of a conjunction) I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

It seems these following events were after the events above. What do you think?

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
 

37818

Well-Known Member
Are you set in stone that your definition of the church of Jesus Christ is not a mystery as Paul the apostle claims and is indeed the same and equal with any and all other entities that have obtained God's salvation in the scriptures and has no special doctrines that apply specifically to it? That is what I think you are attempting to get across in your cross context posts. The return of Christ to the earth to be King is a matter of several OT prophecies so there is no applcation for this?

Ep 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

You are saying unequivocally that the body of Christ is being raised from the dead in Re 20:4-6, where the language is thus:


Re 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Rev 20:1
And (remember what is the function of a conjunction) I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

It seems these following events were after the events above. What do you think?

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Matthew 24:29-31, Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
 

JD731

Well-Known Member
Matthew 24:29-31, Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
I am taking that as a yes.
 
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