The Christians never had heard of the pre trib rapture viewpoint though until 1830I have tied two (2) prophetic themes of scripture together, the details of which cannot be determined as being fulfilled at the time I am writing this comment, and these prophecies have applications for Israel and the nations over the whole world. Since they are not complete it leaves us with determining that they are really not true and have no meaning or they are, as some, maybe even you, wil say, are figurative with only a spiritual application to history.
Then I insist, that in the course of revelation during those years, we have a new revelation from God and NT prophets that this "present time" is a time of mysteries. It is called by Jesus himself and detailed as a long extended time as the "mysteries of the kingdom of heaven " in Matthew 13 and other passages in the scriptures. It is a mystery, we learn, because none of the events during this time that are chronicled by Jesus in his seven (7) parables in the chapter are a subject of OT prophets yet the time frame for these events are given in a growing season, from the time of planting until the time of reaping and subsequently disposing of the harvest. This harvest is not the end of all harvests, but it is the end of this crop which began with the sower sowing seeds. This new growing season comes immediately after the failure of the previous harvest. That harvest did not fail because it was not ripe and ready and a good harvest, it was because there were not enough reapers to gather the harvest. You can read the previous 12 chapters in Matthew's gospel to see that is true, but I will give you one or two verses by Jesus about that crop.
Matt 9:37 Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few;
38 Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.
Here is the end of the harvest of this present growing season from the Lord himself.
Matt 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world. (I suggest reading Eph 3 here)
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. (this is the end of parable #4 of 7, Jesus changed locations from the seaside to the house and spoke 3 more parables. This is important and is not without significance)
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world (age); and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
This is as far as I am going to take this now but understand that this mystery form of the kingdom was established because the kingdom of God was rejected by Israel when they rejected King Jesus, the son of God and the Messiah of Israel. The rejection was national through the rulers but it was not total and therefore those who did believe in him entered into the mystery form of the kingdom through a new birth while the King was away.
Lk 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost. (spoken in the last week of the ministry on earth of Jesus Christ and after the rulers had already decided to kill him)
11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman (Jesus) went into a far country (Heaven) to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return (to earth.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds).
26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
Is this you?
1 Cor 4:1 Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.
2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.
I might introduce a third prophetic theme soon that is denied and rejected by most denominations. It is important that one does not deny and teach against God's promises in his prophecies. Doing so indicates a larger and perhaps a more profound problem.
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The Danger of the Denial of the Pre-Trib Translation (Rapture) of the Church of Jesus Christ
- Thread starter JD731
- Start date
The Christians never had heard of the pre trib rapture viewpoint though until 1830
What Christians and what church? How are you defining Christians and the church?
Are/is the church the body of Christ, separate from Israel, with it's own destiny and doctrines and vitally connected to it's head, Jesus Christ?
Church is spiritual Israel
Is it spiritual Jacob too?
I am going to gently as possible correct your statement and also as briefly as possible by making a couple points without much detail. We will see how it goes.
First point. This is a point of fact that Matthew alone gives us concerning the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Mt 27:50 ¶ Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
1) Sleeping saints are physically dead saints
2) They are OT saints in this chapter
3) The church, even mentioned on this thread by Reformed, say the church did not begin until Pentecost.
4) This is a resurrection
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
1) Paul says there is an order to the resurrection of saints, not more than one resurrection.
2) In Matthew 27:52 it was OT saints who were the firstfruits of the resurrection, in 1 Cor 15:20 Christ is the firstfruits of the saints in the church, which is all those who were saved after his resurrection from the dead and who were given his abiding Holy Spirit indwelling them.
3) The word "firstfuits" in 1 Cor 15:20 is plural.
Re 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
1) This is not the gentile church in Re 20.. Gentiles are not said to be priests and Paul does not use this word at all in his 13 letters he wrote to gentile churches and the church at large as he explained the church. It would be a made up doctrine if someone said the church is a priesthood when the man charged to write the doctrines of the church was silent about it.
2) The beginning of the seven years of tribulation was without a single living saint and ended with most who were saved being killed for their faith and a few living to the end. It is those who had died who were resurrected to reign on earth with Christ for a thousand years.
The resurrection follows the Jewish harvest.
1) Firstfruits - OT saints
2) Main harvest - the church
3) Gleanings - Tribulation saints
I intended to publish two major points in this post but I am thinking I will save my second and very powerful and convincing post until next time. Meanwhile, I am going to post a prophecy from the Psalmist David about the time immediately after the translation of the church of Jesus Christ.
Ps 12:1 ¶ «To the chief Musician upon Sheminith, A Psalm of David.» Help, LORD; for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithful fail from among the children of men.
37818
Well-Known Member
The resurrection of Jesus Christ is in Mark, Luke, Acts and John. As well as 1 .Corinthians 15. Jesus Himself is the firstfruits [it's Greek is singular, not in the plural.] A KJB problem.'
Did you forget what you said? Now is the time to rethink things you might have missed before.
I would like to make a change in a word from my post #127 from "firstfruits" to "firstborn"
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
1) Paul says there is an order to the resurrection of saints, not more than one resurrection.
2) In Matthew 27:52 it was OT saints who were the firstfruits of the resurrection, in 1 Cor 15:20 Christ is the firstBORN of the saints in the church, which are all those who were saved after his resurrection from the dead and who were given his abiding Holy Spirit indwelling them and hope of a heavenly presence with Christ..
3) The word "firstfuits" in 1 Cor 15:20 is plural.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
1) Paul says there is an order to the resurrection of saints, not more than one resurrection.
2) In Matthew 27:52 it was OT saints who were the firstfruits of the resurrection, in 1 Cor 15:20 Christ is the firstBORN of the saints in the church, which are all those who were saved after his resurrection from the dead and who were given his abiding Holy Spirit indwelling them and hope of a heavenly presence with Christ..
3) The word "firstfuits" in 1 Cor 15:20 is plural.
37818
Well-Known Member
I didn't forget there is only the one first resurrection per Revelation 20:4-6. And it is post trib.
Do you think Re 20:4-6 is the first resurrection ever after having read Matt 27:52-53 or do you think the resurrection of RE 2:6 is the resurrection of the saints that had been killed during the great tribulation and was the first in order of the resurrections mentioned after the coming to earth of the Lord to rule on the earth in time, one at the beginning of his reign for a thousand years and one after his reign of a thousand years when time has ended?
I am going to post some verses from this chapter and ask if you will apply logic and reason to what is being said here;
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
First resurrection is of tribulation saints in the chapter who had been killed
Next resurrection is of the damned in the chapter who had been killed
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
The first resurrection is to life and service and the next resurrection is with those who are in hell and death, meaning soul in hell and body in decay. Resurrections are physical. This would be the first and only resurrection of people who are damned.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
At verse 11 is after the thousand years when those who had died in the tribulation along with all souls and bodies of all ages will be brought before Jesus Christ to give account of their deeds and to receive their sentence of death in the lake of fire forever.
Then, the Day of God, an eternal day without sinners or sin.
11 ¶ And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
1 ¶ And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Please give some logical thought to these things. It is important.
37818
Well-Known Member
It is the only resurrection to immortality before the rapture per 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.
Explain how you know this, please. The saints who arose at the time of the resurrection of Christ went into Jerusalem. (I am the resurrection and the life, Jesus said in Jn 11:25, he that believeth in me though he were dead, yet shall be live, and he that liveth and believeth in me shall never die - believeth thou this (Isn't this what is happening in 1 Thess 4? - some are not dying)
Matt 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Those in 1 Thess 4 are in two classes, those who have died physically and those who are alive at the event. The Lord glorifies the bodies of the living and raises glorified bodies for the ones who had previously died and whose soul he brought with him. They do not go into Jerusalem, they go into the air where Jesus is to ever be with him. Jesus does not come to the earth, he comes to the air in these passages.
In Re 19, all the church comes from heaven to the earth with Jesus after being prepared as a bride to participate as the bride in the marriage supper which is the inauguration of his earthly and physical kingdom.
Logic, reason, and faith. One must have these three things.
37818
Well-Known Member
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, . . . we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not precede them which are asleep. . . . and the dead in Christ shall rise first . . . . Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them . . . .
How do you reconcile the fact that the church, his bride, has already came back with Jesus Christ the King of kings from the starting point of heaven to the earth before this resurrection of the beheaded saints in Re 20?
@37818, do you agree with this poster that the church is spiritual Israel?
Are you on record teaching that the saints that Jesus raised from the dead after his resurrection according to Matthew 27:52-53 lived to die again and were not the firstfruits of the one resurrection according to OT ceremonial typology?
@JesusFan said, when asked, that the church had it's beginning on Pentecost fifty days later. Do you agree? I do.
37818
Well-Known Member
Don't. Because that has not happened.
Is that happening at same time, as part of the same second coming event?
None except Jesus has as of yet received their physically glorified bodies
The doctrines of the church of Jesus Christ are a matter of the mysteries of God. What are the mysteries of God? They are the events of this new age of the church when the lost glory is restored to man in the person of Jesus Christ through whom God forms his church from his sleeping body after the pattern of the first creation of Adam and Eve and the family of man. The operative word in this age since the resurrection is "new." The new is in comparison of what has already been, "the old." The OT scriptures are a record of the days after the fall of man when he walked in the flesh and the NT scriptures are a record of the manner of renewing of man to his glorious creation and his presence with the glorified Christ. The whole process from beginning to end is given to us in the revelation that Paul received from God for the purpose of teaching his church and giving us hope.
Now for the men who reads this, there is nothing new with God under the sun. There has already been a glorified man, Adam, and a glorified bride, Eve. What is now being accomplished in the church has already been. The earth is round and God is eternal and one thing is a metaphor for another. You men have the wrong teachers and they do not know this. You read their books and adopt their thoughts and they blind your minds to spiritual truths. The church of Jesus Christ is not spiritual Israel. It is not a matter of OT prophecies. It, the church, is hidden in the metaphors of the OT. Look at this;
Eph 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
Note here: Read those two verses again. The grace of God was and is associated with gentiles and the proof of that is that God saved Paul at about the same time he opened the door of faith to gentiles in Acts 10 by Peter in the year 40 AD. Paul was saved in AD 37 after the events of Acts 7 when the Jews officially rejected Jesus Christ as their savior nationally. As a result of this rejection God revealed these mysteries to Paul during his training in Arabia and brought him back to teach the gentiles THE GOSPEL OF GOD. This is a specific gospel that Paul call "my gospel." He was called the apostle to the gentiles but he was not of the 12. Think about these things. What is grace to gentiles are promises to be fulfilled to Jews during these days.
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
the dispensation of the grace of God V2
by revelation he made known unto me the mystery V3
the mystery of Christ) V4
in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men V5 - There were age divisions, with an 's" before this age according to this statement,
What is the mystery? Eph 3: 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise (the promise of this age is the indwelling presence of the Holy Ghost as a permanent resident of ones person) in Christ by the gospel: This make the individual believer in Christ in the image of Christ, soul, body, and Holy Ghost, and the corporate body in the image of Eve, threefold, Jew believers, gentile believers, Holy Ghost, one body.
There is no body in the OT. There is a body in the NT. There is no body after the translation of the church. There are nations with resurrected rulers after God purges every rebel off the earth, including Satan, to begin his thousand year kingdom rule. Think of that. Those who were killed by the enemy during the purge for Christ sake will rise to rule with Christ when he returns to the earth as King of kings..
This is not understood by studying church fathers so called. It must be revealed to the mind because it is hid in God.
Ephesians 3:9
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
The passages where Paul deals with the translation of the church in the context of "mystery."
1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
_________________________
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
These two passages are referencing the same event, along with 1 Thess 4:13-18.
I have given a lot of info here but the church must be understood in the context of the mysteries of God. For that God must be your inward teacher. If he is not in you then you cannot know these things and men cannot teach you.
1 John 2:27
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
1 Cor 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
The Holy Ghost compares the New with the Old because the truths are contained in the old and revealed in the new.
Proof of these words. None of you guys are convinced yet.
The most important thing in Bible interpretation and understanding is to be sure you are born again, that you have put your trust in the shed blood of Jesus Christ, that you trust in his gospel that he died for our sins, was buired, and that he has risen from the dead, and that you are one of his by receiving him by faith. He, Jesus Christ, is a glorious Savior!
Now for the men who reads this, there is nothing new with God under the sun. There has already been a glorified man, Adam, and a glorified bride, Eve. What is now being accomplished in the church has already been. The earth is round and God is eternal and one thing is a metaphor for another. You men have the wrong teachers and they do not know this. You read their books and adopt their thoughts and they blind your minds to spiritual truths. The church of Jesus Christ is not spiritual Israel. It is not a matter of OT prophecies. It, the church, is hidden in the metaphors of the OT. Look at this;
Eph 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
Note here: Read those two verses again. The grace of God was and is associated with gentiles and the proof of that is that God saved Paul at about the same time he opened the door of faith to gentiles in Acts 10 by Peter in the year 40 AD. Paul was saved in AD 37 after the events of Acts 7 when the Jews officially rejected Jesus Christ as their savior nationally. As a result of this rejection God revealed these mysteries to Paul during his training in Arabia and brought him back to teach the gentiles THE GOSPEL OF GOD. This is a specific gospel that Paul call "my gospel." He was called the apostle to the gentiles but he was not of the 12. Think about these things. What is grace to gentiles are promises to be fulfilled to Jews during these days.
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
the dispensation of the grace of God V2
by revelation he made known unto me the mystery V3
the mystery of Christ) V4
in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men V5 - There were age divisions, with an 's" before this age according to this statement,
What is the mystery? Eph 3: 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise (the promise of this age is the indwelling presence of the Holy Ghost as a permanent resident of ones person) in Christ by the gospel: This make the individual believer in Christ in the image of Christ, soul, body, and Holy Ghost, and the corporate body in the image of Eve, threefold, Jew believers, gentile believers, Holy Ghost, one body.
There is no body in the OT. There is a body in the NT. There is no body after the translation of the church. There are nations with resurrected rulers after God purges every rebel off the earth, including Satan, to begin his thousand year kingdom rule. Think of that. Those who were killed by the enemy during the purge for Christ sake will rise to rule with Christ when he returns to the earth as King of kings..
This is not understood by studying church fathers so called. It must be revealed to the mind because it is hid in God.
Ephesians 3:9
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
The passages where Paul deals with the translation of the church in the context of "mystery."
1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
_________________________
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
These two passages are referencing the same event, along with 1 Thess 4:13-18.
I have given a lot of info here but the church must be understood in the context of the mysteries of God. For that God must be your inward teacher. If he is not in you then you cannot know these things and men cannot teach you.
1 John 2:27
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
1 Cor 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
The Holy Ghost compares the New with the Old because the truths are contained in the old and revealed in the new.
Proof of these words. None of you guys are convinced yet.
The most important thing in Bible interpretation and understanding is to be sure you are born again, that you have put your trust in the shed blood of Jesus Christ, that you trust in his gospel that he died for our sins, was buired, and that he has risen from the dead, and that you are one of his by receiving him by faith. He, Jesus Christ, is a glorious Savior!