The Day TULIP Died

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Who the heck is TULIP?

Someone who didn’t get the shots

 

[AustinC]

Yes, I think any parent would agree that what you had to do was done out of love. And I think that any Christian would agree that sometimes things that God does to His children is done in love.

Determining that some of those children will spend an eternity in hell because He did not select them for salvation is not love.

You have the wrong because.
All humanity goes to hell...because...they break God's law and are in rebellion.

All persons who go to heaven are there...because...God chose to ransom them.
1 Peter 1:3-5
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:18-21
Knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

1 Peter 2:7-10
So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe, “The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,” and “A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense.” They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do. But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. Once you were not a people, but now you are God’s people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.


Luke 20:17-18
But he looked directly at them and said, “What then is this that is written: “‘The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone’? Everyone who falls on that stone will be broken to pieces, and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him.”

 

[AustinC]

Someone who didn’t get the shots

A straw man living in the land of OZ.

 

[AustinC]

We have seen how you do not allow Gods' word to lead you. What verse did I misinterpret, you make these kind of claims but never back them up. I do not interpret scripture, by reading it through a theological lens as some on here do, I just read what it says in clear English.

As usual from you, you try to twist whatever someone says. It is not God that sends people to hell, it is their sin. It is your errant theology that makes God the one that causes people to be in hell for no other reason than He did not pick them out to be saved. You have been shown this many times but you just ignore it and continue to make your false claims.

You ask "What does the Bible say about being chosen, elected and predestined?" If you would just let the bible speak and not read into the scriptures what you need to find then perhaps you would find out what the bible actually does say, which is not what you need it to say.

What does the Bible say about being chosen, elected and predestined?

 

[Reynolds]

In reality it doesn't. But that was it's goal (Calvin expressed his primary goal to be “to sanctify the name of God” and his motive as a “zeal to illustrate the glory of God.”

When I was a Calvinist my answer would have been that it glorified God by explaining His sovereignty over all creation. In the judgment of the list we see God glorified in His justness. In the redeemed we see Him glorified in His mercy.

But in reality Calvinism minimalizes God and inflates mankind (particularly sin). This is because Calvinism itself can stand alone (with the concept of any supreme being) if its presuppositions about justice are believed.

Agreed. One of the biggest practical problems I see with Calvinism is explanation of the Fall of Satan, the fall of 1/3 Rd of the angels, and the fall of man. Calvinists have a collection of excuses to try to deal with the three problems, but their excuses are woefully inadequate.
They pound the phrase "A sovereign God." What they refuse to admit is that if God was incapable of granting Arminian free will, then God would not be Sovereign.

 

[37818]

We always have to check our presuppositions at the door prior to studying Scripture. Often we don't. Many times we can't.

But that is where opposing positions help.

Others (who do not hold our presuppositions) readily see what we don't insofar as assumptions or things we bring into theology as opposed to allowing Scripture dictate our beliefs.

The issue is when questioned about assumptions many simply ignore the question and claim it is the "plain teachings", "obvious", etc. They not only refuse to justify the things they bring to the Word but they blindly refuse to see the things they carry.

This applies to Calvinists and non-Calvinists alike. There often comes a point when we shove our fingers into our ears and shout "ain't so" to avoid dealing with what we cannot defend.

One's presuppositions are necessary. Our problem is not the having presuppositions, but having presuppositions that are not true.

 

[AustinC]

Agreed. One of the biggest practical problems I see with Calvinism is explanation of the Fall of Satan, the fall of 1/3 Rd of the angels, and the fall of man. Calvinists have a collection of excuses to try to deal with the three problems, but their excuses are woefully inadequate.
They pound the phrase "A sovereign God." What they refuse to admit is that if God was incapable of granting Arminian free will, then God would not be Sovereign.

I don't see your connection to Satan's fall or the third of the angels. This view comes from Ezekiel's epic poem regarding the King of Tyre and is applied to Satan (I believe correctly).
That Satan and 1/3 of the angels fell in sin and became corrupt demons was ordained by God. That man fell in sin and became corrupt and enslaved to sin was also ordained by God.
That God chose to ransom man, but not angels is an example that God will have mercy on whom he has mercy.

The fact that God ordained these falls does not make God the author of sin, but it does make God Sovereign.

 

[JonC]

One's presuppositions are necessary. Our problem is not the having presuppositions, but having presuppositions that are not true.

And being able to tell the difference between our presuppositions and Scripture. That is, IMHO, the larger issue.

 

[Reformed1689]

"I had come to believe that love was one of God’s “soft” attributes (compared to the biggies like holiness, sovereignty, immutability, etc.). It wasn’t a huge leap from that to wondering whether God was truly loving at all.
After all, if God’s chief concern is for his own glory (as Piper claims) and holiness is his supreme attribute (as my church taught), then love is at best a secondary concern for God. On top of that, if you’re not among the elect, it makes no sense to conceive of God loving you at all. “I love you, but before you were born, I decided you would spend eternity in agonizing torment.

The more all this weighed on me, the more I began to hate going to church (which made being on the worship team a bit complicated). I was also growing troubled by the theological arrogance I saw in myself and others. . . .

All I knew was that I had to choose between a loving God and a deterministic God (or no God at all). I realize most Calvinists feel this is a false choice, but it’s the one I had to make. Ultimately, I don’t think it’s a false choice at all, because love and determinism are fundamentally irreconcilable.". (Ben Irvin, The Day TULIP Died)



Is, as the author came to believe, love and determinism fundamentally irreconcilable?

This doesn't sound like the day TULIP died. This sounds like the day you gave yourself into full on humanism and ignoring Scripture.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Agreed. One of the biggest practical problems I see with Calvinism is explanation of the Fall of Satan, the fall of 1/3 Rd of the angels, and the fall of man. Calvinists have a collection of excuses to try to deal with the three problems, but their excuses are woefully inadequate.
They pound the phrase "A sovereign God." What they refuse to admit is that if God was incapable of granting Arminian free will, then God would not be Sovereign.

My only disagreement with them is Lordship Salvation…there is disagreement over the subjects of Perseverance and the Absolute Predestination of all things.

 

[Silverhair]

TULIP is an acronym for the responses of the Synod of Dort to the Five Remonstrances drawn up by the disciples of Arminius. It is not the codification of Calvinism. Calvinism has never been codified.

Calvinism is a term used for those who believe in predestination according to God's purposes of election. He will save His people from their sins. Calvinism is simply the Gospel.

The OP bemoans what all who deny God's sovereignty in salvation bemoan, that it's 'unfair' and 'unloving.' Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Romans 9:19

But Paul admits, that it only sounds unfair and unloving to those who are perishing. Odd that JonC agreed with my post, LOL.

Calling calvinism the gospel is false. Calvinism is just the misapplication of the scriptures by twisting or ignoring the text of the bible. The bible is the standard to which we are to hold.

 

[Silverhair]

You have the wrong because.
All humanity goes to hell...because...they break God's law and are in rebellion.

All persons who go to heaven are there...because...God chose to ransom them.
1 Peter 1:3-5
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:18-21
Knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

1 Peter 2:7-10
So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe, “The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,” and “A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense.” They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do. But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. Once you were not a people, but now you are God’s people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.


Luke 20:17-18
But he looked directly at them and said, “What then is this that is written: “‘The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone’? Everyone who falls on that stone will be broken to pieces, and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him.”

I agree man will be in hell because they reject the love of God and the free gift of salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. Via their free will man could have trusted in Christ Jesus but instead they rejected Him.

But under the determinism of calvinism man does not have that choice.
Under calvinism that is not why they are in hell. Read your DoG or confessions. God determines who will spend eternity in hell not because of their sin but because He did not pick them out to be saved. Man has not real ability to chose, although calvinists will say man chooses his greatest desire, but even mans desire is determined by God so man really has no ability to chose otherwise dos he?

 

[Silverhair]

What does the Bible say about being chosen, elected and predestined?

I know what the bible says and it does not lineup with calvinism. Calvinism is the error so show me how it lines up with the bible via scripture.

 

[Silverhair]

This doesn't sound like the day TULIP died. This sounds like the day you gave yourself into full on humanism and ignoring Scripture.

Amazing how, according to your logic, no one up until Augustine got the bible right and then he set the world straight. When you pick and choose what parts of the bible you want to believe and disregard the rest it is not the bible you believe but rather it is yourself.

The bible is the standard and your theology, to be true, has to line up with it. Calvinist seem to think their theology is the standard and there in lays the problem.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Calling calvinism the gospel is false. Calvinism is just the misapplication of the scriptures by twisting or ignoring the text of the bible. The bible is the standard to which we are to hold.

Of course that’s your opinion… you do know what they say about opinions right!?!

 

[AustinC]

I agree man will be in hell because they reject the love of God and the free gift of salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. Via their free will man could have trusted in Christ Jesus but instead they rejected Him.

But under the determinism of calvinism man does not have that choice.
Under calvinism that is not why they are in hell. Read your DoG or confessions. God determines who will spend eternity in hell not because of their sin but because He did not pick them out to be saved. Man has not real ability to chose, although calvinists will say man chooses his greatest desire, but even mans desire is determined by God so man really has no ability to chose otherwise dos he?

Men are in hell because they break God's moral law.
You add a whole bunch of extra stuff because of your philosophy.

God is not nor has He ever been obligated to ransom any human. God is not unfair if He chooses to ransom just one because he chose to be merciful while not ransoming any other.

You, however, blame God and call Him unfair and the author of sin...if He doesn't follow your protocol of free will.

 

[Alan Gross]

Who the heck is TULIP?

That is just a colloquial acronym for 'The Truth', of the Triune Godhead's Eternal Covenant and Plan of Salvation.

 

[canadyjd]

Calvinist determinism is the main factor in play here. God is love and His stated desire is that all come to a saving knowledge of Him. With divine determinism Gods' love is overruled and only those that are pre-selected can be saved.

Mat 11:28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

This is a good faith offer made to all who will come to Him. Those that will trust in Him will be saved. The only restriction is they must come, God will not force anyone to be saved.

I understand many see Calvinistic determinism as the main factor in this question. What I am saying is you cannot honestly consider this issue if you limit the question to Calvinistic determinism.

I would say God’s love is not “overruled”, because it established by His choice to redeem those He has chosen. If He did not, according to GOG, none of His creation would be saved.

Matthew 11:28 is limited by v. 27, which says “…no one knows the Father but the Son and those whosoever the Son wills to reveal Him.”

No one comes to a saving knowledge of God unless Jesus wills it. If Jesus wills it, they will “come to Me…. I will give you rest.”

peace to you

 

[JonC]

Men are in hell because they break God's moral law.
You add a whole bunch of extra stuff because of your philosophy.

God is not nor has He ever been obligated to ransom any human. God is not unfair if He chooses to ransom just one because he chose to be merciful while not ransoming any other.

You, however, blame God and call Him unfair and the author of sin...if He doesn't follow your protocol of free will.

There is another option -

John 3:16–21 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
17 “For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
18 “He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 “This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
20 “For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
21 “But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God"

 

[Alan Gross]

So after that long comment do you agree trhat God desires all men to be saved or do you think that only a pre-selected group will be saved?

"all who are saved God wills they should be saved; nor are any saved, but whom he wills they should be saved: hence by all men, whom God would have saved, cannot be meant every individual of mankind, since it is not his will that all men, in this large sense, should be saved, unless there are two contrary wills in God;"