The Day TULIP Died

[canadyjd]

Actually calvinist determinism is the main factor as it determines what the outcome is to be according to calvinism. What calvinist deny is that those that God chooses to save are those that freely trust in His son.

Well, you keep saying “according to Calvinism” and those that hold to the DOG will say “according to scripture”.

How about we focus on scripture. You mentioned Matthew 11:28 “…come to Me all who are weary and heavy laden…”

Let me first point out Jesus doesn’t invite “all” to come, only those that are weary and heavy laden. So, Jesus has clearly looked over those that are not weary and heavy laden.

How do you reconcile Matthew 11:27 “no one knows the Father but the Son and those whoever the Son wills to reveal Him”?

Doesn’t it seem reasonable to conclude, in context, that those who are weary and heavy laden are the same folks that Jesus has chosen according to His will, to reveal the Father?

Peace to you

 

[JonC]

the Attributes of God are all perfect, but his chief ones are Holy and Love, as both are needed to have a perfect God!

And did not the Lord choose and favor out Israel and the Jews from among all nations and peoples of the time, was he wrong to do such then?

No, of course He was not wrong to have chosen Israel, and to have set His love on Israel, even though a large percentage of them proved unfaithful.

That is actually a point for anti-Calvinists, BTW. God set His love on an unfaithful nation who largely rejected Him. Only a remnant were faithful.

 

[George Antonios]

Appealing to "mystery" to reconcile Calvinism and human responsibility, or Calvinism and a God of love, is very misleading.

The premise that: "A and not-A is true" is not a mystery; it's an antinomy.

 

[JonC]

John 3:16–21 For God so loved the world,

of "the world of the Gentiles" and "all sorts of men, agreeably to the use of the phrase in 1 Timothy 2:1 are here intended, kings and peasants, rich and poor, bond and free, male and female, young and old, greater and lesser sinners; "..."and particularly the Gentiles"..."as well as the Jews, and therefore Heathens, and Heathen magistrates, ... as well as Jewish ones, however NOT Just the JEWS, as was and had to be emphasized at that time...

"that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him"

of "the world of the Gentiles" and "all sorts of men, agreeably to the use of the phrase in 1 Timothy 2:1 are here intended, kings and peasants, rich and poor, bond and free, male and female, young and old, greater and lesser sinners; "..."and particularly the Gentiles"..."as well as the Jews, and therefore Heathens, and Heathen magistrates, ... as well as Jewish ones, however NOT Just the JEWS, as was and had to be emphasized at that time...

"shall not perish, but have eternal life."

It is possible to know the Truth, but not everyone does, 'will', or can.

The key is whether their Adamic nature rules in false religious dogma, such as "_____" means "_____" no matter how many times it does not mean "_______".

Nah. The "as many" speaks to a portion of those God loved by sending His Son as being saved. It is impossible to read "the world" in John 3 as meaning anything but the whole world, that is, it is impossible unless you read your theology into the passage.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Amazing how you think it started with Augustine and don't know history.

“Amazing” is an understatement.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Who is them? I assume Calvinists. Lordship Salvation is not agreed upon by Calvinists. They are split on it.

Not MacCarther, not Sproll, not Piper. They are all on board with Lordship Salvation.

 

[canadyjd]

Nah. The "as many" speaks to a portion of those God loved by sending His Son as being saved. It is impossible to read "the world" in John 3 as meaning anything but the whole world, that is, it is impossible unless you read your theology into the passage.

John 3:16 has already been limited by John 3:1-15 where Jesus reveals everyone “born again” is born by the will of God Holy Spirit, which is a repeating theme from John 1 that those that are sons of God are born by the will of God and then again in John 10 “My sheep hear My voice and follow Me…” and no one comes to the Father unless he is drawn and of the Pharisees Jesus says,” you do not believe because you are not of My sheep”

He doesn’t say they are not His sheep because they don’t believe, but rather they don’t believe BECAUSE they are not His sheep.

peace to you

 

[37818]

And being able to tell the difference between our presuppositions and Scripture. That is, IMHO, the larger issue.

The actual teaching of Scripture should be one's presuppositions.

 

[JonC]

John 3:16 has already been limited by John 3:1-15 where Jesus reveals everyone “born again” is born by the will of God Holy Spirit, which is a repeating theme from John 1 that those that are sons of God are born by the will of God and then again in John 10 “My sheep hear My voice and follow Me…” and no one comes to the Father unless he is drawn and of the Pharisees Jesus says,” you do not believe because you are not of My sheep”

He doesn’t say they are not His sheep because they don’t believe, but rather they don’t believe BECAUSE they are not His sheep.

peace to you

I disagree. There is no reason to take "world" in John to mean anything other than the whole world.

The Light shines in the darkness. He came to His own, and they did not receive Him. But as many as did have the right to become children of God.

The "whosoever" in John 3:15 is speaking of whosoever out of the world.

You are allowing your theology to dictate your interpretation rather than allowing Scripture dictate your belief.

Oddly enough, Calvinism does not change if you were to take the passage for what it says.

 

[JonC]

The actual teaching of Scripture should be one's presuppositions.

It should be, but it isn't.

Consider past arguments.

Scripture says Christ died for our sins.

How is that read? Is it read "Christ died for our sins" or "Christ died instead of us"?

Scripture says "we esteemed Him stricken". How is that read - "we esteemed Him stricken" or "He was stricken by God"?

In both cases Scripture has been altered to support presupposed ideas.

Same with "world" in John 3:16 and "whole world" in 1 John 2:2. Calvinists change the meaning to "the elect of the world" - NOT because Scripture dictates the meaning but because such a change support their theology.

 

[37818]

How is that read? Is it read "Christ died for our sins" or "Christ died instead of us"?

Matthew 20:28.

 

[Reformed1689]

Same with "world" in John 3:16 and "whole world" in 1 John 2:2. Calvinists change the meaning to "the elect of the world" - NOT because Scripture dictates the meaning but because such a change support their theology.

No, no, no, no, no. This is a strawman argument.

 

[Reynolds]

Not MacCarther, not Sproll, not Piper. They are all on board with Lordship Salvation.

MacArthur publically championed it in the late 80s- early 90s and received great deals of pushback from other Calvinists. I recently heard him talk about the divide. Many Calvinists see it as a works based Salvation. The submission into complete repentance is viewed as a work.

 

[Reformed1689]

MacArthur publically championed it in the late 80s- early 90s and received great deals of pushback from other Calvinists. I recently heard him talk about the divide. Many Calvinists see it as a works based Salvation. The submission into complete repentance is viewed as a work.

Right when the proper way to look at it is this is the evidence of salvation. The response every true Christian gives to their salvation.

 

[JesusFan]

Why do you think that?

he is trying to understand his issues from the perspective as a human would, but not as God does!

 

[JesusFan]

MacArthur publically championed it in the late 80s- early 90s and received great deals of pushback from other Calvinists. I recently heard him talk about the divide. Many Calvinists see it as a works based Salvation. The submission into complete repentance is viewed as a work.

main concerns that I have is with the reasoning"if jesus not Lord over all, then is Lord over None", and also the truth that seem might start to waver and fall due to seeing works based performance as their security for salvation, and not the Lord Jesus Himself!

 

[JesusFan]

Right when the proper way to look at it is this is the evidence of salvation. The response every true Christian gives to their salvation.

How can we ever have real security if issue is how much is Jesus our Lord, if he is not Lord over all per them, probably not even saved?

 

[canadyjd]

I disagree. There is no reason to take "world" in John to mean anything other than the whole world.

The Light shines in the darkness. He came to His own, and they did not receive Him. But as many as did have the right to become children of God.

The "whosoever" in John 3:15 is speaking of whosoever out of the world.

You are allowing your theology to dictate your interpretation rather than allowing Scripture dictate your belief.

Oddly enough, Calvinism does not change if you were to take the passage for what it says.

I allow scripture, and scripture alone, to dictate my theology. Any suggestion otherwise is a false statement.

The “whosoever” out of the world is defined and limited by John 1 (the sons of God.are born by the will of God) John 3 (those that are born again are born by the will of God Holy Spirit) John 10 (no one comes unless they are drawn, My sheep hear My voice and follow Me)

Concerning the “light shines in the darkness”, those that “practice the truth” (notice the focus is not on belief) come to the light so that their deeds (the truth practiced) are revealed to be “wrought in God” (God is the source of the truthful deeds being practiced)

So those that practice truth, come to the light and are given the right to be children of God, do so by the Power of God.

peace to you

 

[JesusFan]

I allow scripture, and scripture alone, to dictate my theology. Any suggestion otherwise is a false statement.

The “whosoever” out of the world is defined and limited by John 1 (the sons of God.are born by the will of God) John 3 (those that are born again are born by the will of God Holy Spirit) John 10 (no one comes unless they are drawn, My sheep hear My voice and follow Me)

Concerning the “light shines in the darkness”, those that “practice the truth” (notice the focus is not on belief) come to the light so that their deeds (the truth practiced) are revealed to be “wrought in God” (God is the source of the truthful deeds being practiced)

So those that practice truth, come to the light and are given the right to be children of God, do so by the Power of God.

peace to you

Seems that some who take we Calvinists to task for
refining words". end up doing very same things themselves!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

MacArthur publically championed it in the late 80s- early 90s and received great deals of pushback from other Calvinists. I recently heard him talk about the divide. Many Calvinists see it as a works based Salvation. The submission into complete repentance is viewed as a work.

OK… I’m again it