The Dead In Christ Shall Rise First – 1 Thessalonians 4:16

[Ed Edwards]

Token on-topic statement:

In 1 Thess 4:16, "The dead in Christ shall rise first' is in contrast with the 'not dead in Christ (i.e. the still living in Christ)

In 1 Thess 4:16, "The dead in Christ shall rise first' is NOT in contrast with the 'not in Christ' (i.e. the unsaved.

I say, if you cannot with ONE Scripture explain it ALL and with any other confirm the SAME, you've got it wrong all along.

Now here is ONE Scriptures that explains as well as identifies ALL: The Second Coming and when; The First Resurrection and when; the Tribulation and when, etc. etc., Rv20:1-6, and especially verse 5b: "The Thousand Years This The First Resurrection" ( and the other way around, like 2x3=6=3x2).

I emphasize, this is the simple Faith of the oldest of Christian Confessions of Faith, the Apostolic Confession. It is the FULL Gospel of Jesus Christ. Anything above or strung out from it, is bogus.

Actually I have three proofs of the pre-tribulation rapture2 = resurrection1 + rapture1, case. These three are in addition to the ones most pre-tribbers use. I'll explain the three at once, then each one seperate. Meanwhile, feast on the hope here:

------------------------------
Rev 20:4-5 (KJV1611 Edition):
And I saw thrones, and they sate vpon them, and iudgement
was giuen vnto them: & I saw the soules of them that were
beheaded for the witnesse of Iesus, and for the word of God,
and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image,
neither had receiued his marke vpon their foreheads,
or in their hands; and they liued and reigned with
Christ a thousand yeeres.
5 But the rest of the dead liued not againe vntill
the thousand yeeres were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The wrong doctrine:

FIRST = ONE AND ONLY ONE
so there is one and only resurrection of the two groups
shown in Revelation 20:4.

The correct doctrine:

FIRST means the groups that come before the latter groups.
(the ampersand '&' here shows two seperate sets of people)
----------------------------

 

[Ed Edwards]

One lesson in Logic 101.

Understanding Matthew 24:13 (KJV1873):

But he that shall endure unto
the end, the same shall be saved.

This statement is true:
IF he endures to the end;
THEN he shall be saved.

Logic Dictates that this statement is
also correct because the first one was:

If he is not saved;
Then He did not endure to the end.

There are two statements that come from
this that are independent of the first
statement (I didn't say they were true or
false); I leave it up to the reader to
prove one of them true from the Bible.
If one is true, both are true [by the rules
of Logic] ):

Two conjectural statements follow, they are both true or both false.

IF he endures NOT to the end;
THEN he shall NOT be saved.

IF he is saved;
THEN he endures to the end.

Two conjectural statements precede, they are both true or both false.

Matthew 24:13 does NOT support the
truth of these last two conjectural statements.
Some people think it does, but they make a logical error.
If you think they are both true, find a verse that makes them so.

-------------------------------
An example where the second set of propositions
are not true, even though the original set
of propositions is true.

First set of propositions (True)
If you smoke; then you will die prematurly.
If you die NOT prematurely;
then you did NOT smoke.

Second set of propositions (False)

If you do not smoke; then you will not die prematurely
[it is false, you could die from a fall while
cleaning your gutters]

If you die prematurely; then you smoked.
[perchance you die prematurely cause
you got lung cancer from pollution]

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

ED: One lesson in Logic 101.

HP: This is no lesson in logic 101, but rather is a clear example of a misunderstanding of the way in which our salvation is held and exactly when our salvation is made absolutely eternally secure.

You are trying to place in some logical box the word ‘saved.’ Your error lies in the fact that you have unknowingly or otherwise inserted a presupposition into your thinking that I believe is in error. You appear to be trying to make the word ‘saved’ stand on all four legs in support of the idea that the totality of salvation occurs upon one act of faith, when that is simply not the case. Certainly we enter into salvation upon one act of faith, but our salvation is not complete in a final sense until subsequent to this life when we are judged by Christ. In this life we can and should have a full assurance of our final standing, we can known with as much certainty as is possible within the scope of faith, but is again by faith, NOT absolute knowledge, that we hold and possess our salvation in this present world.

Thus your logic is faulty and its conclusions in error due to a misrepresentation in the form of a presupposition dealing with the nature in which our salvation is held in this present life and the point in which our salvation reaches the point of finality. Our faith will be turned to sight, and can be said to be eternally complete, only subsequent to our standing before Christ in judgment in the world yet to come.

PS: Your trailer is just as contradictory today as it was yesterday.....and most likely will be tomorrow. :thumbs:

 

[Ed Edwards]

As a knife cuts a small width cut with it's two edges, so the promised future Second Coming of our Lord and Savior: Messiah Jesus has two edges (a beginning and and end). The Day of the Lord, the Tribulation Judgment Period, the 70th Week of Daniel, cuts a 7-year-wide swath through time - separating the 1,973 year long (so far, might be longer) Church Age (AKA: time of the Gentiles) from the 1,000 year long Messianic Kingdom on Earth.

Edge one, the end of the (mostly gentile) Church Age: the pre-tribulation rapture2 = resurrection1 + rapture1 of the Church Age elect saints

Edge two, the start of the Millennial Messianic Kingdom of Messiah Jesus, the Second Advent of Messiah Jesus who comes in power and glory to destroy the Lead Devil and his evil spirits and supporting humans.

Here are some supporting Scriptures (not all by any means):

\o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

:wavey: Praise be to Jesus \o/
​

2 Thessalonians 2:1 (KJV1873):
Now we beseech you, brethren,
by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
and by our gathering together unto him,

Two events mentioned here:
1) the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
2) our gathering together unto him

Titus 2:13 (KJV1873):
Looking for that blessed hope,
and the glorious appearing of the great God
and our Saviour Jesus Christ

Two events mentioned here:
1) blessed hope
2) the glorious appearing of the great God
and our Savior Jesus Christ

These two events are mentioned separately throughout the Bible (and together in the same sentence above). The Rapture2, which was a mystery in the O.T. is now mentioned in the N.T.

Rapture Passages (the gathering, the blessed hope):

Matthew 24:31-44 (in the Mount Olivet Discourse
--- and parallel passages in Mark 13 & Luke 21)
John 14:1-3
Romans 8:19
1 Corinthians 1:7-8, 15:51-53, 16:22
Philippians 3:20-21, 4:5
Colossians 3:4
1 Thessalonians 1:10, 2:19, 4:13-18, 5:9,23
2 Thessalonians 1:7, 2:1, 2:3
1 Timothy 6:14
2 Timothy 4:1,8
Hebrews 9:28
1 Peter 1:7,13, 5:4
1 John 2:28-3:2
Jude 1:21
Revelation 2:25

Second Advent Passages (Jesus comes again in power and glory to defeat the Antichrist and set up the millennial kingdom):

Daniel 2:44-45, 7:9-14, 12:1-3
Zechariah 12:10, 14:1-15
Matthew 13:41
Matthew 24:15-30, 26:64
Mark 13
Luke 21
Acts 1:9-11, 3:19-21
1 Thessalonians 3:13
2 Thessalonians 1:6-10, 2:8
1 Peter 4:12-131
2 Peter 3:1-14
Jude 1:14-15
Revelation 4-19

 

[Ed Edwards]

// Thus your logic is faulty and its conclusions in error due to a misrepresentation in the form of a presupposition dealing with the nature in which our salvation is held in this present life and the point in which our salvation reaches the point of finality. //

" .. Salvation reaches the point of finality" has no meaning whatsoever. (or else is self-contradictory) depending on how one looks at it.

Here is a description of 'Saved':

Joh 3:16-17 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
For God so loued the worlde, that hee hath giuen his onely begotten Sonne, that whosoeuer beleeueth in him, should not perish, but haue euerlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Sonne into the world, that he should condemne the world, but that the world through him might be saued.

Definition: saved - not perish but have everlasting life

How does 'Salvation reach the point of finality'? Everlasting life does not have an end; 'finality' does not pertain to everlasting life.

So the only end of salvation that we can measure is the front end.

 

[Ed Edwards]

The correct eschatology: pretribulation rapture2,
pre-millinnial Second Advent of Jesus (physical Millinnial
Kingdom) Futurist, is insperatable from the other Major
Doctrines. No Major doctrine is complete without the
pretirublation rapture1/resurrection1.

Recall these are the Major Doctrines:

Bibliology - The Study of the Bible
Theology - The Study of God the Father
Christology - The Study of God the Son
Pneumatology - The Study of God the Holy Spirit
Anthropology - The Study of Man
Hamartiology - The Study of Sin
Soteriology - The Study of Salvation
Ecclesiology - The Study of the Church
Angelology - The Study of Angels (& devils)
Eschatology - The Study of Last Things

Eschatology is interwoven with the other Doctrines
of the Bible. Obviously i spend all my time making
a living* and supporting the Pretribulation rapture/resurrection
eschatology on the internet, else i would write a book showing
how these great doctrines taught in the Bible all lead ONLY
to the correct Eschatology: pretrib, pre-mill, and futuristic.
(Well, till the Lord comes to glorify us at the pretribualtion
rapturte2 = resurrection1 + rapture1 - Then the whole
Gentile Church will be Preterists )

*Note - after I wrote this, I retired (in Aug 2006). But
I'm raising two grandchildren in Oct 2008 a 17-year-old boy (Junior)
and a 11-year-old girl (5-th grade)..

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Ed Edwards,
You say, "The wrong doctrine:

FIRST = ONE AND ONLY ONE
so there is one and only resurrection of the two groups
shown in Revelation 20:4", as if that is what I have said. It is not. I say what I quoted, so that the two things in what I quoted is equalised and identified as one and the same thing. Now both being metaphors, we do not have to do with the literal and physical 'resurrection' of the Christian hope here, but the spiritual reality of its present.
He who is not born again cannot enter into the Kingdom of heaven, because flesh and blood cannot enter it Therefore this is that spiritual and First and conditional resurrection whereby a man is born into the family of God. This happens while and when God is worshipped in spirit and in truth through Jesus Christ, our present age. Which therefore makes of the age of Christ's rule and Kingdom, that symbolic and spiritual "Thousand Years" in which and by which, lost men and women are being saved eternally.

Revelation does not speak of the 'general' or 'in the flesh' resurrection of the body in 20:1-6. It speaks of the physical and general resurrection in its subsequent verses.

It is as plain as daylight. It is what Christians have always believed. It is the Faith. It is happy and satisfied and at peace and rest in Christ and through Christ. But it never loosens the Christian from that integral, sign of its genuineness, the tribulation, which for the believer, is received as his crown of glory through Christ --- the souls under the altar of the sacrifice of his life for, and to, Jesus Christ. The souls under the altar is another metaphor of ALL Christians. it shows their dying of the old man and preservation of the new through suffering. It is as part of his part in Christ as being justified is his part in Christ. Actually, it is his reward and glory to the honour of his Lord and Saviour. "Flesh and blood" cannot enter into the Kingdom of heaven; "the souls" are. This the First Resurrection The Thousand Years is most vivid 'alive' picture of our redemption come real.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Gerhard Ebersoehn: // Ed Edwards,
You say, "The wrong doctrine:

FIRST = ONE AND ONLY ONE
so there is one and only resurrection of the two groups
shown in Revelation 20:4", as if that is what I have said. //

I wrote that before I ever met Gehard Ebersoehn (prior to 2006, as noted). It is a strawman & an argument against it. Feel free to create and destroy your own strawman.

BTW, each scripture has a half dozen physical interpretations and a few dozen spiritual ones. God's Written Word is sharper than any two-edge sword - of course the spiritual understand you have of these Scriptures are right, but limited.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The Scriptures of your post 104 do not support this:
"Edge one, the end of the (mostly gentile) Church Age: the pre-tribulation rapture2 = resurrection1 + rapture1 of the Church Age elect saints

Edge two, the start of the Millennial Messianic Kingdom of Messiah Jesus, the Second Advent of Messiah Jesus who comes in power and glory to destroy the Lead Devil and his evil spirits and supporting humans." it supports this:

Edge one, the beginning and duration of the Church Age = the tribulation = spiritual or "first resurrection" = the Church of ALL elect saints;

Edge two, the End of the 'Millennial Kingdom' of Messiah Jesus = Second Advent of Messiah Jesus who comes in power and glory to raise all the dead: and 1. "change" or glorify all saints then 'quick' or resurrected; and 2. destroy the Devil and his evil spirits and supporting humans then 'quick' or resurrected.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Gerhard Ebersoehn: // Ed Edwards,
You say, "The wrong doctrine:

FIRST = ONE AND ONLY ONE
so there is one and only resurrection of the two groups
shown in Revelation 20:4", as if that is what I have said. //

I wrote that before I ever met Gehard Ebersoehn (prior to 2006, as noted). It is a strawman & an argument against it. Feel free to create and destroy your own strawman.

BTW, each scripture has a half dozen physical interpretations and a few dozen spiritual ones. God's Written Word is sharper than any two-edge sword - of course the spiritual understand you have of these Scriptures are right, but limited.

GE:
You are keen to have observed my mistake; it is good; but be observant of the inerrancy of the WORD! I reject your last observation; it's no more than the ashes of your many strawmen struck down with the flaming Sword from the mouth of the One on the white horse of the Apocalypse.

 

[BobRyan]

In Rev 20:4-5 we see the "FIRST resurrection" and then in the last half of the chapter - after the 1000 years -- we see the 2nd one.

As long as we keep Rev 20 as really being the "FIRST" resurrection - then the Matt 24 sequence works - as is AND the 1Thes 4 statement about "the dead in Christ rise FIRST" takes on even MORE significance since Rev 20 says "BLESSED AND HOLY is he that takes part in the FIRST resurrection".

It all just works. No fuss - no muss. (As they say)

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Ed Edwards]

...

I emphasize, this is the simple Faith of the oldest of Christian Confessions of Faith, the Apostolic Confession. It is the FULL Gospel of Jesus Christ. Anything above or strung out from it, is bogus.

I cannot seem to find the words to 'The Apostolic Confession'. Please share them with us. Thank you.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

In Rev 20:4-5 we see the "FIRST resurrection" and then in the last half of the chapter - after the 1000 years -- we see the 2nd one.

As long as we keep Rev 20 as really being the "FIRST" resurrection - then the Matt 24 sequence works - as is AND the 1Thes 4 statement about "the dead in Christ rise FIRST" takes on even MORE significance since Rev 20 says "BLESSED AND HOLY is he that takes part in the FIRST resurrection".

It all just works. No fuss - no muss. (As they say)

in Christ,

Bob

GE:
BobRyan, fortunately for us, and unfortunately for you, we - the readers on this forum - already know of your card or two up both your jacket sleeves. We do not trust your seeming innocent remarks no more.

In Rev 20:4-5 we see the "FIRST resurrection" and then in the last half of the chapter - after the 1000 years -- we see the 2nd one. Yes! at first glance. But we know you with "FIRST resurrection", mean some dualistic event of allegedly two resurrections from two 'segments' of only one 'side' of the dead, "those in Christ", raised physically. In other words, the REAL resurrection 'in the flesh' BUT, of only the righteous, and EXCLUDING the resurrection of any other dead. This complicated hoax is what you innocently call the "FIRST resurrection".

While Rv20:1-6 CLEARLY restricts the 'first resurrection' to a spiritual resurrection or the regeneration into the Kingdom and "Reign" of and "with Christ", since Rev 20 says "BLESSED AND HOLY is he that takes part in the FIRST resurrection". "This The Thousand Years" of both the victory and suffering of the saints, BEFORE the resurrection in the flesh, described in the subsequent verses.

As long as we keep Rev 20 verses 1 to 6 as really "BEING the first resurrection", verse 6, literally, - then its OWN sequence works, and explains Rv20 itself, fully and simply.

Then the Matt 24 sequence works on its own and comes down to the same things said in Revelation.

But the 1Thes 4 statement about "the dead in Christ rise FIRST" RETAINS its OWN significance which not in the least is in conflict with either Rv20 or Mt24, in that PAUL HERE PAYS ATTENTION TO THAT ONE FACTION OF THE DEAD, "those in Christ".

The word 'First' in 1Thess4 is used with regard to those in Christ who are raised from the dead when He comes while there are those in Christ who are alive when He comes. It is NOT used with reference to different resurrections; it is used with reference to different people.

I have before challenged you to do a parsing of 1Thess4 - grade seven stuf?? You could not then. You have not improved your linguistic or biblical skills since, it is obvious.

Man, yours is what I call hypocracy. Do not interpret the Word of God to suit your SDA hypocracies!