The Dead In Christ Shall Rise First – 1 Thessalonians 4:16

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

ED: IMHO the physically flawed "Adulterer's Bible" contain the inerrant Written Word of God: the Spiritual Bible. (I would, if I had one, do an ink change in the margin.)

HP This debate is NOT about printers errors, or the obvious and unintentional error of a translator or copyist, but rather about intentionally changing the whole meaning of a passage by yourself and or others to fit an unfounded presupposition while destroying the clear and well understood meaning of the text, under the guise of a mere 'opps.'

 

[Ed Edwards]

HP This debate is NOT about printers errors, or the obvious and unintentional error of a translator or copyist, but rather about intentionally changing the whole meaning of a passage by yourself and or others to fit an unfounded presupposition while destroying the clear and well understood meaning of the text, under the guise of a mere 'opps.'

You did not seem to understand the words I used. So I gave an example that happened to be a 'printer error'. Do you understand what I'm saying (you don't have to agree, just understand)?

Or shall I give more examples?

Examples like intentional copyist errors (my favorite one is putting in Mark what Luke Said). Strangely, the example is scriptural, for it is found in the scriptures. Did you notice the example above where one Bible has 'Christ' and another Bible had 'Christ Jesus'? Is it alright to change the Bible like that? I've already seen you not likeing that someone put 'God' in a scripture of their Bible and some other Bible only had 'He' (standing for 'the Lord'). The meaning is the same, but only one is supported by the Majority Text (or are both present in the MT?).

Examples of unnecessary words that explain the Scirpture. My favorite is that MVs made in the 20th Century (1901-2000) said 'Joseph' was the Father of Jesus. But the KJV does that also.

I can go on and on. I'm trying to explain something rather simple. I thought I could explain it using simple terms, but apparently I cannon. You aught to hear how they explain it in QUALITY ASSURANCE CIRCLES. You would have to be both a Brain Surgeon and a Rocket Scientist.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Ed: I've already seen you not likeing that someone put 'God' in a scripture of their Bible and some other Bible only had 'He' (standing for 'the Lord')

HP: You must remember things I do not or you have me confused with someone else. Do you remember the context that might have given you that impression?[/quote]

ED: Examples of unnecessary words that explain the Scirpture. My favorite is that MVs made in the 20th Century (1901-2000) said 'Joseph' was the Father of Jesus. But the KJV does that also.

HP: Joseph was indeed the father of Jesus according to Scripture, just not by the natural means orchestrated by Joseph’s own volition. Do you doubt the Word of God? Do you not believe the “Inerrant and perfect Word of God preserved by Divine appointment???”

Possibly we need to look again at the clear genealogies of Christ given to set the record straight that indeed, Jesus was the son of Joseph, though again, NOT by the implementation of his seed by natural means, but rather by the Holy Spirit in a manner not disclosed to us into the womb of the virgin Mary.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Ed Edwards:
"The OBO (one physical Bible only) denies both these facts saying:
1. there is but one physical Bible in English
2. there are only about 5,000 source fragments that are right
3. the wrong sources OMIT part of the 'Bible'

God Gave the Holy Spirit to us so we can figure out which reading(s) is/are best."

GE:
This, not at all is why God gave his Holy Spirit.
Now you admit 'omission' proves a version 'wrong'. How many 'omissions' needed to get the principle working? And why, while 'omit' makes a version invalid, may changes and downright errors not?

Your 'text-criticism' is as illogical and haphazard as your 'eschatology', Ed Edwards.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Joyce: Hey guys, I know I'm the new one on the block here; but, that scripture Matthew
14:13 where it talks about "enduring to the end" that is not something those who are living in the dispensation of Grace need to concern themselves over in the first place,…

HP: Here is one of the more troubling posts in this thread, and a clear reason to reject the presupposition of an unbiblical pre-tribulation rapture. It foments the satanic deception that God’s warning doesn’t mean or involve believers. The same argument has been made concerning the mark of the beast. It is said that it occurs during the tribulation, and that because all believers will be raptured prior to the tribulation, you can take any mark you so desire now for it is impossible for it to be the mark of the beast if it occurs before the rapture of the church.

We should no longer wonder no more how the enemy of our souls will deceive many in the last days to the destruction of their souls. This pretribulation rapture is not simply another view of the end times. It is a subtle deception of the enemy that ensnares, traps and in the end could vary well cost one their soul. The belief that God’s warnings simply do not involve those that hold to such conjecture is again a tool in the hands of the enemy.

Wake up church!

 

[Ed Edwards]

One's theory on how God Preserved the Bible for us must include the facts:

1. there are over 100 different Bible Versions in English
2. there are over 5,000 source fragments of the NT NOT in Englilsh

The OBO (one physical Bible only) denies both these facts saying:
1. there is but one physical Bible in English
2. there are only about 5,000 source fragments that are right
3. the wrong sources OMIT part of the 'Bible'

The above might have confused some. Here is what I said repeated so it is easier to understand what I beleive and what I don't believe:

One's theory on how God Preserved the Bible for us must include the facts:
1. there are over 100 different Bible Versions in English
2. there are over 5,000 source fragments of the NT NOT in Englilsh

The OBO (one physical Bible only) denies both the above true facts saying the following three wrong things:

The following statement #1 is WRONG:

1. there is but one physical Bible in English
​

The preceding statement #1 is WRONG

The following statement #2 is WRONG:

2. there are only about 5,000 source fragments that are right
​

The preceding statement #2 is WRONG

The following statement #3 is WRONG:

3. the wrong sources OMIT part of the 'Bible'
​

The preceding statement #3 is WRONG



My trailer shows:
1. There are many valid physical Bibles in English
2. all 5,234 source fragments of the Bible are correct
3. some sources* ADD to the 'Bible'

* note: the MT (Majority Text) and RT (Received Text) appear to have added scripture to the older text.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

HP: Here is one of the more troubling posts in this thread, and a clear reason to reject the presupposition of an unbiblical pre-tribulation rapture. It foments the satanic deception that God’s warning doesn’t mean or involve believers. The same argument has been made concerning the mark of the beast. It is said that it occurs during the tribulation, and that because all believers will be raptured prior to the tribulation, you can take any mark you so desire now for it is impossible for it to be the mark of the beast if it occurs before the rapture of the church.

We should no longer wonder no more how the enemy of our souls will deceive many in the last days to the destruction of their souls. This pretribulation rapture is not simply another view of the end times. It is a subtle deception of the enemy that ensnares, traps and in the end could vary well cost one their soul. The belief that God’s warnings simply do not involve those that hold to such conjecture is again a tool in the hands of the enemy.

Wake up church!

GE:
I say amen!, HP. Now I think I'm up again for trial because I -- and you, brother -- have 'questioned the salvation' of some!

 

[Ed Edwards]

HP: // It is said that it occurs during the tribulation, and that because all believers will be raptured prior to the tribulation, you can take any mark you so desire now for it is impossible for it to be the mark of the beast if it occurs before the rapture of the church. //

In my research, I've not come across anybody who said that. Or am I loosing my memory? Perchance you might find me a hot link?

Otherwise we shall construe that you are demolishing a strawman with gasoline and fire :godisgood:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

ED: In my research, I've not come across anybody who said that. Or am I loosing my memory? Perchance you might find me a hot link?

Otherwise we shall construe that you are demolishing a strawman with gasoline and fire

HP: I suppose if there is not a link that I can point to, it must not be the facts acording to you. Possibly you might need to listen to more Christian radio. I have heard that remark about the mark of the beast on Christian radio. It is nothing more than a logical conclusion of a false notion. If you have not heard it yet, you will if you are listening.

Now, for the truth as to what you believe. Tell us Ed, is it possible as a believer to take a mark that is the mark of the beast spoken of in Rev. or anywhere else you might believe such a mark is spoken about?

 

[Ed Edwards]

No. I do not believe what one said in the post before mine.

I believe that one in the Tribulation Period who does NOT TAKE THE MARK will be saved by Jesus because they did not take the Mark. During the 10th Persecution of the Church about AD 308, the person whose first testimony that Jesus was Lord resulted in their death were called 'Still Born' Christians. They never have a chance to do good works. Those who read this post that are Christians have a chance to do good works. Let us go do them. Amen!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

HP: // It is said that it occurs during the tribulation, and that because all believers will be raptured prior to the tribulation, you can take any mark you so desire now for it is impossible for it to be the mark of the beast if it occurs before the rapture of the church. //

In my research, I've not come across anybody who said that. Or am I loosing my memory? Perchance you might find me a hot link?

Otherwise we shall construe that you are demolishing a strawman with gasoline and fire :godisgood:

GE:
I think you are loosing memory rapidly .... oops ---- luckily it's you who said so ...

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

ED: No. I do not believe what one said in the post before mine....

HP: I am sorry but your response seems less than helful and does not seem to me to be a straight forward answer.

Let me ask the question in another way. Does the mark of the beast occur during the tribulation or when? Will any believers, saved prior to the tribulation period, be around at the time the mark is given?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

HP: I am sorry but your response seems less than helful and does not seem to me to be a straight forward answer.

Let me ask the question in another way. Does the mark of the beast occur during the tribulation or when? Will any believers, saved prior to the tribulation period, be around at the time the mark is given?

GE:
Does the mark of the beast occur during the tribulation or when? Will any believers, saved prior to the tribulation period, be around at the time the mark is given?

Yours is a lucky strike method of promoting your own ideas for Gospel. But you don't observe you fell into the hole you yourself have dug.

Your 'questions' are no questions, they are presumption. But you think I cannot see that if I answered affirmative, I would have admitted to your 'pre-trib' ideas.

So let me make it clear I believe Jesus will come again AFTER what you call "the tribulation" but place after Jesus' Coming. The present Christian era is the time of the tribulation. No saved person is there that shall not have had his own part of and in the tribulation. The Kingdom of God era, is the time of tribulation, and has been the tribulation-period ever since the mark of the beast has been given to the first wicked who died in his sin of self-righteousness. For the mark of the beast is 666, which is the mark of self-righteousness and of falling short in the righteousness of God.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

You might try asking the one that has written the most posts on the issue, ED:thumbs:

 

[Ed Edwards]

HP: I am sorry but your response seems less than helful and does not seem to me to be a straight forward answer.

You have no right to be sorry about that. Using the same logic: I'm sorry that every time I try to logically simplify something, people think i'm getting complicated

Let me ask the question in another way. Does the mark of the beast occur during the tribulation or when? Will any believers, saved prior to the tribulation period, be around at the time the mark is given?

The mark of the beast occurs in the Tribulation Period, 70th Week of Daniel chapter 9. There will be 144,000 saved prior to the pre-tribulation rapture2 who believed in the Lord during this present age - read about them in Revelation chapter 7 - that will be living PROTECTED BY THE MARK OF GOD. BTW, most of Revelation chapter 7 is about what happens in Heaven immediately after the pre-tribulation rapture2 = resurrection1/rapture1. Many Jews (dare I say 'all'?) shall be saved in the Tribulation, which is what the Tribulation Judgement is all about. These Jews will be protected by the very hand of God through the Tribulation Judgement trans-era.

IMHO I avoid marks on my body (all the ones I have hurt, only the small pox inoculation mark seemed to be useful) including, but not limited to:

identity marks
beating marks
insect marks
beast bite marks
walking into furniture at night marks
location device implant marks
tattoo marks including archangel tattos
gang marks

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

ED: The mark of the beast occurs in the Tribulation Period,

HP: Thanks for the clear remarks on the issue. Now for the pressing question. Is it possible for you to receive, or any other believer living now for that reason, to receive the ‘mark of the beast’ spoken of in Revelations?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Ed Edwards:
"The mark of the beast occurs in the Tribulation Period, 70th Week of Daniel chapter 9. There will be 144,000 saved prior to the pre-tribulation rapture2 who believed in the Lord during this present age - read about them in Revelation chapter 7 - that will be living PROTECTED BY THE MARK OF GOD. BTW, most of Revelation chapter 7 is about what happens in Heaven immediately after the pre-tribulation rapture2 = resurrection1/rapture1. Many Jews (dare I say 'all'?) shall be saved in the Tribulation, which is what the Tribulation Judgement is all about. These Jews will be protected by the very hand of God through the Tribulation Judgement trans-era.

IMHO I avoid marks on my body (all the ones I have hurt, only the small pox inoculation mark seemed to be useful) including, but not limited to:

identity marks
beating marks
insect marks
beast bite marks
walking into furniture at night marks
location device implant marks
tattoo marks including archangel tattos
gang marks"

GE:
No one could improve on your refutation of yourself as here stated. No one at his wits and of the simplest of Christian Faith though, would be able to understand HOW you arrived at your foregone conclusions. Not for a lack of understanding, but for the lack of Scripture on your side.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I say, if you cannot with ONE Scripture explain it ALL and with any other confirm the SAME, you've got it wrong all along.

Now here is ONE Scriptures that explains as well as identifies ALL: The Second Coming and when; The First Resurrection and when; the Tribulation and when, etc. etc., Rv20:1-6, and especially verse 5b: "The Thousand Years This The First Resurrection" ( and the other way around, like 2x3=6=3x2).

I emphasize, this is the simple Faith of the oldest of Christian Confessions of Faith, the Apostolic Confession. It is the FULL Gospel of Jesus Christ. Anything above or strung out from it, is bogus.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

HP:
"Thanks for the clear remarks on the issue. Now for the pressing question. Is it possible for you to receive, or any other believer living now for that reason, to receive the ‘mark of the beast’ spoken of in Revelations?"

GE:
I won't again say it's above me; I understand these 'clear remarks on the issue' as well as any other --- that they are clearly irrational and contra-Scripture and common sense. None shall walk this earth who will receive or has received 'the mark of the beast' who has not walked it before Christ will come again. As every person who dies lost dies marked with the mark of the beast, he shall be raised with it to receive judgment upon the mark of the beast, together with the beast in that great and last day of this present earth's history.

And just so as every person who dies saved dies marked with the mark of God's Elect, he shall be raised with it to receive judgment upon the mark of God's Elect, together with Christ Jesus in that great and last day of this present earth's history when Christ shall come again to MAKE AN END as well as NEW BEGINNING: AT ONCE, AND FOREVER.

Every and all Scripture confirm this WHOLE.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

GE: I am not trying to avoid you, or show myself to be unkind, but my question was directed in response to Ed. Your views interject many ideas foreign to the Word of God, and it is not my desire to run down that many rabbit trails at this time. Possibly others might have the desire to respond to your posts, but for now, I do not feel lead to do so.