The Dead In Christ Shall Rise First – 1 Thessalonians 4:16

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Ed: If there is one tinny boo-boo in your Bible…….

HP: I do not know about boo-boo’s in the Bible, but I would consider it to more than a “boo-boo” to suggest as you have that people will be ‘falling’ out of their graves at the rapture. That again is having the believers falling the wrong way regardless of the ‘perspective’ of the camera as you put it. I, for one, fully intend on ascending upward as opposed to what you refer to as a falling away in the rapture. I believe Scripture would support my view. Ascending or being caught up to meet the Lord in the air is not falling to meet the Lord by any stretch of the perspective of any camera or imagination.

And you say you teach Scripture to others?

 

[Ed Edwards]

The only post (prior to this post) containing "God is wrong" NOT IN QUOTES is in the post of HP (post #55)
i.e. Ed has NOT said "God is wrong".

I said the KJV was wrong - but the Bible is Inerrant (no error)
I said the NASB was wrong - but the Bible is Inerrant (no error)
The Bible is a creation of God, it is without error (aka: 'inerrant')

I am a retired Software Quality Assurance Engineer - I know Quality (also Betty

Bible books are Hardware; the Bible Truth is Software!

Read my trailer, it is true, you know --

 

[Ed Edwards]

HP: I do not know about boo-boo’s in the Bible, but I would consider it to more than a “boo-boo” to suggest as you have that people will be ‘falling’ out of their graves at the rapture. That again is having the believers falling the wrong way regardless of the ‘perspective’ of the camera as you put it. I, for one, fully intend on ascending upward as opposed to what you refer to as a falling away in the rapture. I believe Scripture would support my view. Ascending or being caught up to meet the Lord in the air is not falling to meet the Lord by any stretch of the perspective of any camera or imagination.

And you say you teach Scripture to others?

When Lazarus was raised from the dead, he walked out of the tomb :
Joh 11:43-44 (KJV1611 Edition):
And when hee thus had spoken, he cryed with a loude voice, Lazarus, come foorth.
44 And he that was dead, came forth, bound hand & foot with graue-clothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Iesus saith vnto them, Loose him, and let him goe.

Yep, Lazarus looked like a mummy and walked out (neither up nor down) - Maybe in Resurrections the resurrected come out of the grave sideways?

Yes, I teach Scriptures to other people :1_grouphug: The ones whom I have taught that died have not come back to tell me I'm wrong. In fact, none have complained about my teaching to me after dying.

Some of the ones who are still living even say 'thank you' from time to time. If something was amiss, one might think they would gripe about me. They sure gripe about the preacher, but only after 12:10PM.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

ED: I said the KJV was wrong - but the Bible is Inerrant (no error)
I said the NASB was wrong - but the Bible is Inerrant (no error)
The Bible is a creation of God, it is without error (aka: 'inerrant')

HP: If a translation is in error, the error which it contains is NOT the Words of God but of fallible man. One cannot say, the Bible is wrong, yet infallible. That is a stark contradiction of terms.

When Jesus prayed, “Thy ‘kingdom’ come’ (kingdom singular, not kingdoms plural) which kingdom, of those you seem to believe exist, was He speaking of?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Read Revelation 20 and see with you own eyes what happens to the reprobate wicked --- and WHEN. After the physical future Millennial Messanic Kingdom.

GE:
See WHEN: "After the physical ---Millennial Messanic Kingdom" -- 'future', left out. John, by the Holy Spirit, says, "This the Thousand Years: The First Resurrection"; or, "This the First Resurrection-Thousand Years". A better definition of the Kingdom of heaven there is not.

For who-ever: 'Ascend', is not 'gathered together'/'seized together'. It is the LORD IN THE AIR, WE FROM OUR GRAVES IN CLOUDS SEIZED TOGETHER meet. First get the plain meaning of the words right before you start with wrong doctrines, using erroneous words erroneously.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Ed Edwards:
"The Bible talks about three different Kingdom's of God. Others believe in one, two, or three kingdom's of God. So I like to add terms so people will know which Kingdom I'm talking about."

GE:
The Bible talks about ONE Kingdom of God: God's! whether "the kingdom of heaven" or "the kingdom of Christ", or the Father's Kingdom; they're all ONE - God's Church of all ages; the Communion of the saints; the Congregation of the faithful or whatever: ALL who knowingly or unknowingly believe or believed or shall believe in Jesus Christ the only Saviour.

 

[Ed Edwards]

I don't have time right now to do it. But just take 'kingdom' a good search engine, a good Bible and start searching


----------------------------------------------------------
"AGE" in the New King James Version (nKJV).

The KJVs tends to confuse the Greek "aeon" /age/ and
Greek "cosmos" /world/ and calles them both "world".
So i'll use the nKJV for my word study on "age".
References to how old someone is (AKA: "age") have been eliminated.
What is left is references to different ages which are long periods of time.
A line that starts with a * is my rewording of the Bible truth I see. Feel free
to not agree with me, everybody else does

Mt 12:32 (nKJV):
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man,
it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit,
it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

Mt 13:39 (nKJV):
The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest
is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.

*souls shall be harvested at the end of this age

Mt 13:40 (nKJV):
Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire,
so it will be at the end of this age.

Mt 13:49 (nKJV):
So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come
forth, separate the wicked from among the just,

Mt 24:3 (nKJV):
Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came
to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be?
And what will be the sign of Your coming,
and of the end of the age?"

Mt 28:20 (nKJV):
teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you;
and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

*Jesus is with us completely to the end of the age.
*the age has an end

Mr 10:30 (nKJV):
who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time--houses
and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands,
with persecutions--and in the age to come, eternal life.

*people will have eternal life, in the age to come

Lu 18:30 (nKJV):
who shall not receive many times more in this present time,
and in the age to come eternal life."

Lu 20:34-35 (nKJV):
34. And Jesus answered and said to them, "The sons of this age marry
and are given in marriage.
35. But those who are counted worthy to attain that age,
and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;

*there is a future age when marriage is NOT, after resurrection from the dead

1Co 1:20 (nKJV):
Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer
of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

*this age has a disputer

1Co 2:6 (nKJV):
However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature,
yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age,
who are coming to nothing.

*the wisdom of this age will come to nothing
*the rules of this age will come to nothing

1Co 2:8 (nKJV):
which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known,
they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

1Co 3:18 (nKJV):
Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems
to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise.

2Co 4:4 (nKJV):
whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe,
lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ,
who is the image of God, should shine on them.

*the god of this age is NOT Jesus, the Christ

Ga 1:4 (nKJV):
who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver
us from this present evil age, according to the will
of our God and Father,

*this age is evil

Eph 1:21 (nKJV):
far above all principality and power and might and dominion,
and every name that is named, not only in this age
but also in that which is to come.

*there is an age to follow this age

Eph 6:12 (nKJV):
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities,
against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age,
against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

* this age is dark

1Ti 6:17 (nKJV):
Command those who are rich in this present age not to be haughty,
nor to trust in uncertain riches but in the living God, who gives
us richly all things to enjoy.

* this age has rich people in it

Tit 2:12 (nKJV):
teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts,
we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,

Heb 6:5 (nKJV):
and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

This great section on the Security of the Believer
speaks of an "age to come".
* there will be "good ... powers" in the age to come.

AGES in the KJV1769:

Eph 2:7 (KJV1769):
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches
of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

**There will be ages after this age.

Eph 3:5 (KJV1769):
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men,
as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Eph 3:21 (KJV1769):
Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages,
world without end. Amen.

Col 1:26 (KJV1769):
Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages
and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

*There were ages before this age.
*ages are similar to generations

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

ED: But just take 'kingdom' a good search engine, a good Bible and start searching

HP: So now we have good Bibles and ………..??? Could it be that we also have bad Bibles, inaccurate Bibles, wrong Bibles, or what?

You avoid the question as to the complete contradiction in your statements concerning the Word of God. If some are ‘wrong’ as you say, I am asking, is God’s inerrant Word wrong? Did God preserve it wrong, or what? You cannot have something inerrant that is not inerrant and as such wrong. Take a stand Ed but you cannot have it both ways without being seen as trying to support a clear contradiction of terms. Try simply defining ‘inerrant’ for starters, then ask yourself if in fact it can incorporate error and be within the definition you place upon the word inerrant.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Thank you Brother HP for treating me as though what I say is as valid as scripture. I think of myself as quite a bit less profound that you are attributing to me. So thank you for the compliment.

Ed: // ED: But just take 'kingdom' a good search engine, a good Bible and start searching //

In this context 'good Bible' means:
1. A Bible you are familiar with. The use of Concordances for word search requires that one be very familiar with the Bible used
2. A Bible that is 'valid' according to your Baptist RIGHT to pick your own Bible

For example if one uses this Bible:
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1 Thessalonians 4:17 (GNT = Good News Translation).[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]then we who are living at that time will be gathered up along with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord. [/FONT]and if one search for 'caught up' you will not find it in 1 Thess 4:17 for this version says "gathered up".

I personally use one of the KJV1769 family of editions, the one in e-sword.com cause it has a fairly good search good engine (but if you put "caught up" it will give you every verse with 'caught' and/or 'up' in it. This is a serious limitation, if someone knows better, I'll listen.)

You avoid the question as to the complete contradiction in your statements concerning the Word of God. If some are ‘wrong’ as you say, I am asking, is God’s inerrant Word wrong? Did God preserve it wrong, or what? You cannot have something inerrant that is not inerrant and as such wrong. Take a stand Ed but you cannot have it both ways without being seen as trying to support a clear contradiction of terms. Try simply defining ‘inerrant’ for starters, then ask yourself if in fact it can incorporate error and be within the definition you place upon the word inerrant.

Your words show you are confused. Your words confuse others. My testimony (which sure isn't wrong. I have to take the resuslts into account when I make my Bible based theory of THE BIBLE. The Mileage of others will vary.

Jesus Saves, but I have given Saving Counsel Bible Knowledge to about 140 others from the NIV but only about 120 from other translations. IMHO that makes makes NIV > nKJV > KJV > Living Word But all 4 versions are VALID & INERRANT. The Bible (software) is > the versions (hardware).

of course '>' = greater than


At the Pretribulation rapture-2 (AKA: Caught Up) the dead in Christ ONLY will be resurrect-1-ed. Only the living in Chrsit will be rapture-1-ed.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Quote:
Originally Posted by HP
You avoid the question as to the complete contradiction in your statements concerning the Word of God. If some are ‘wrong’ as you say, I am asking, is God’s inerrant Word wrong? Did God preserve it wrong, or what? You cannot have something inerrant that is not inerrant and as such wrong. Take a stand Ed but you cannot have it both ways without being seen as trying to support a clear contradiction of terms. Try simply defining ‘inerrant’ for starters, then ask yourself if in fact it can incorporate error and be within the definition you place upon the word inerrant.

ED: Your words show you are confused. Your words confuse others. My testimony (which sure isn't wrong. I have to take the resuslts into account when I make my Bible based theory of THE BIBLE. The Mileage of others will vary.

HP: Absolutely I am confused, and I would believe every honest seeker of truth would be confused as well. You present one thing in one breath and then completely contradict it in another, and then try and tell us that the listener is the one confused.

 

[Ed Edwards]

// You avoid the question as to the complete contradiction in your statements concerning the Word of God. //

Feel free to explain my contradiction without making your own contradiction.

Go study the holograph. Each piece of the holograph contains the whole picture, but not as accurate as the complete holograph.

The inerrant Bible is all the valid Bibles together.
Each valid Bible is very close, but may contain an oops or 800.

One's theory on how God Preserved the Bible for us must include the facts:

1. there are over 100 different Bible Versions in English
2. there are over 5,000 source fragments of the NT NOT in Englilsh

The OBO (one physical Bible only) denies both these facts saying:
1. there is but one physical Bible in English
2. there are only about 5,000 source fragments that are right
3. the wrong sources OMIT part of the 'Bible'

God Gave the Holy Spirit to us so we can figure out which reading(s) is/are best.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Ed: God Gave the Holy Spirit to us so we can figure out which reading(s) is/are best.

HP: Which one is ‘best’ is NOT the question of this debate nor has it been. You have stated that some are “wrong.” If they are ‘wrong’ as you state, they cannot be from or preserved by God, nor can they be classified as inerrant. Stay focused Ed on what the debate is all about. It is about a clear contradiction between the following comment and ​

your stated position that some are ‘wrong.’​

​

​

ED: All VALID English Language Bibles
Collectively and Individually
contain and are
the Inerrant and Perfect
Written Word of God
preserved by Divine Appointment
for the generation in which they are translated.​

​

​

​

​

​

HP: They cannot be ‘inerrant and perfect,’ ‘ preserved by God’ if in fact they are in error, "wrong" as you maintain some are. You cannot have it both ways.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Both of these are perfectly good translations in perfectly good physical* Bibles. The two fullfill the Biblical requirement for two or more witnesses.

2 Pe 1:15-16 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition, e-sword.com ):
I will endeuour therefore alwayes, that ye also may be able to haue remembrance of these things after my departing.
2Pe 1:16 For we followed not deceiuable fables when we opened vnto you the power, and comming of our Lord Iesus Christ, but with our eyes we saw his maiestie:

2 Pe 1:15-16 (HCSB 2003 Edition, gateway.com ):
And I will also make every effort that after my departure you may be able to recall these things at any time.
16 For we did not follow cleverly contrived myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ; instead, we were eyewitnesses of His majesty.

* note: tee hee, I got both readings from electronic Bibles: so I'm calling virtual 'physical'. :godisgood: How alike is ink on a page and electronic fluctuations on cable?

 

[Ed Edwards]

Tell me how an inerrant KJV in the hands of an errant JW causes JW errors?

JW = Jehovah's Witness

I'll tell you. The JW inserts the error. The JW's twisted spiritual 'Bible' comes through human error from the inerrant physical Word of God.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Either both of you,

Please just be chill out and enjoy discuss ok. Have peace in Christ. Thanks. :thumbs:

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DPT: Please just be chill out and enjoy discuss ok. Have peace in Christ. Thanks.

HP: How about some input on the debate?

Can something be inerrant and wrong at the same time?


The other isue being debated is the point Ed makes of the 'falling away' being in reality a remark denoting the rapture of the saints. Even a report of seeing one falling out of a grave would be interesting fodder for the debate.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Both of these are perfectly good translations in perfectly good physical* Bibles. The two fullfill the Biblical requirement for two or more witnesses.


1 Co 4:17 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition, e-sword.com edition):
For this cause haue I sent vnto you Timotheus, which is my beloued sonne, and faithfull in the Lord, which shall put you in remembrance of my wayes in Christ as I teache euery where in euery Church.


1 Co 4:17 (HCSB 2003 Edition, crosswalk.com edition):
This is why I have sent to you Timothy, who is my beloved and faithful child in the Lord. He will remind you about my ways in Christ Jesus, just as I teach everywhere in every church.


* note: tee hee, I got both readings from electronic Bibles: so I'm calling virtual 'physical'. :godisgood: How alike is ink on a page and electronic fluctuations on cable?

Does the Lord remind you of His Holy Scripture you have read, studied, meditated upon?

Token on-topic saying: only the Dead in Christ shall be raised at the pre-tribulation CAUGHT UP (not the dead NOT in Christ)

 

[DeafPosttrib]

"falling away" of 2 Thess. 2:3 in Greek word is apostasia meaning depart from faith, depart from truth. It never meaning of rapture. 2 Thess. 2:3 clearly telling us, our gathering together & 'Day of Christ'-"Day shall NOT come" till we first must see apostasy come, and the revealed of man, and he shall sitteth in the temple of God. It means, Christians' spiritual conditions become worsen in the last days, by being compromsing with world, departing from the Lord, by quit serve the Lord. Then, Satan shall be revealed and will control over Christians('sitteth in the temple of God') by persecute against Christians. Clearing, it telling us, rapture will not come till we must see apostasy come first, and the revealed of sin of man(Satan), and to persecute against Christians. That means, we must go through tribulation first before our gathering together come.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DPT: That means, we must go through tribulation first before our gathering together come.

HP: And add to the debate you did indeed, with truth and sound reasoning I might add. :thumbs:

Could it be possible that the rapture might well occur in the middle of the tribulation as opposed to subsequent to the whole tribulation period?

I also would like to hear your input on the other question I asked. Can something be inerrant and wrong at the same time?

 

[Ed Edwards]

Either both of you,

Please just be chill out and enjoy discuss ok. Have peace in Christ. Thanks. :thumbs:

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Thank you Brother DeafPosttrib. You don't always speak right. But you frequently speak wise. This time you spoke both wise and right on!

Exodus 20:14 (KJV1631 Edition /computed from statements/ ):
Thou shalt commit adultery

Exodus 20:14 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition, e-sword.com edition):
Thou shalt not commit adulterie.

Exodus 20:14 (HCSB 2003 Edition, crosswalk.com edition):
Do not commit adultery.

The KJV1631, the so called "Adulterer's Bible", is obviously incorrect, in error, wrong, has a mistake, made an 'oops', is flawed. If one used only the Adulterer's Bible without consulting any other physical Bible, one might sin. But it is possible, using the GOD REQUIRED multiple witnesses. to figure out which is the correct reading.

IMHO the physically flawed "Adulterer's Bible" contain the inerrant Written Word of God: the Spiritual Bible. (I would, if I had one, do an ink change in the margin.)