The Dead In Christ Shall Rise First – 1 Thessalonians 4:16

[Ed Edwards]

Man says:

...

ONE LAST DAY, ONE RESURRECTION, ONE RETURN OF CHRIST, ONE JUDGMENT, ONE ETERNITY TO FOLLOW of either lost or saved. Nobody is for ever going to lift both feet from this earth.

God says:
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Ephesians 4:4-6 (NIV):
// 4 There is one body
and one Spirit
--just as you were called to one hope when you were called--
5 one Lord,
one faith,
one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all,
who is over all and through all and in all.[/FONT] //

Of these things there is but one each. God said it.

My eschatology I got from reading the Bible(s)

ONE LAST DAY (WRONG) -every week has a last day.
every month has a last day
every year has a last day
every decade (10 years) has a last day
every century (100 years) has a last day - 20 since Jesus
every millinnium (1,000 yearrs) has a last day - two since Jesus

ONE RESURRECTION (WRONG) -God does not limit Himself to one resurrection, men should not limit God either

ONE RETURN OF CHRIST (WRONG) -the Lord does not limit Himself to one return, men should not limit God either

ONE JUDGMENT (WRONG) -All humans will be Judged - that is some 45 Billion human judgments since Jesus was Resurrected. Nations will all be judged also, but there are only a few thousand of them

ONE ETERNITY TO FOLLOW (WRONG) - -the Bible definition of 'eternity' = for ever, does not limit 'eternity' to one and only one.

of either lost or saved (TRUE) - true, either lost or saved

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I'm so glad I don't have you for a Sunday School teacher, dear Ed Edwards; your mathematics lessons I will fail as sure as one is not many.

And I won't even have a baptismal certificate to 'SHOW'; the Seventh Day Adventists still have it but will not part with it though they were but too glad to part with me!

 

[BobRyan]

Rather than going through all this, we could just look at the passage that tells us who these "dead in Christ" are:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-14 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

The "dead in Christ" are those who have "fallen asleep in Jesus." They are contrasted with we who are alive and remain.

Therefore, the dead in Christ are physically dead believers.

Pastor Larry -- is right!:applause:

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bro. Ed, I admit I'm not an expert on end times, but the "falling away" in my opinion is not the rapture but a great apostasy. The word for "falling away" is apostasia or apostasy, a departure from the faith.

Amy G - is right!!:applause:

2Thess 2 makes that very clear that our "gathering together to him" does NOT happen before the great apostacy before the great falling away being described in 2Thess 2 as lead by the man of sin.

Impossible to miss that point for the careful reader of 2Thess 2.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Amy.G]

Bob! I'm so glad to see that you are alright. We were worried about you!

Welcome back.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Originally Posted by Pastor Larry
Rather than going through all this, we could just look at the passage that tells us who these "dead in Christ" are:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-14 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

The "dead in Christ" are those who have "fallen asleep in Jesus." They are contrasted with we who are alive and remain.

Therefore, the dead in Christ are physically dead believers.

Pastor Larry -- is right!:applause:

in Christ,

Bob

GE:
How can anyone differ - Pastor Larry quoted Scripture. It's only when everybody starts telling others what he himself understands that things get mixed up.

What I also understand here, is that Paul talks about the saved only; that some at the coming of Christ shall be raised from the dead whereas some will be living but changed incorruptibly.
What I also understand is that Paul does not speak of all the dead - which Bob e.g. will also agree on. But when I say the fact Paul does not speak about or of the wicked dead does not mean Paul means they will not also be raised. At this stage agreement ends between me and Bob, e.g.. So we must turn to other Scriptures to find out what is right: Are all the dead raised when Christ shall come; or will only the saved among them be raised then?

 

[BobRyan]

Bob! I'm so glad to see that you are alright. We were worried about you!

Welcome back.

Good to be back. I found some Christian boards engaged in the evolution-vs-Bible topic and just couldn't help myself!:laugh:

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

: Are all the dead raised when Christ shall come; or will only the saved among them be raised then?

Just the "Dead in Christ" according to 1Thess 4.

The Alive in Christ,

Bob

 

[Ed Edwards]

Amy G - is right!!:applause:

2Thess 2 makes that very clear that our "gathering together to him" does NOT happen before the great apostacy before the great falling away being described in 2Thess 2 as lead by the man of sin.

Impossible to miss that point for the careful reader of 2Thess 2.

in Christ,

Bob

Here are some English versions of the Bible that translate 'apostacy' in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 with some form of 'departure'.

Wycliffe Version 1382
Tyndale 1534
Coverdale 1535
Great Bible 1539
Geneva Bible 1560
Bishops' Bible 1568

The King James Versions (KJVs) use 'falling away'.

The Modern Versions (those made since 1901) generally 'Apostacy' or 'Rebellion' (NIV, TNIV, LB, NLB, ASV, NASB, etc) save for a fewbased on the Textus Receptus (TR) that use 'falling away' (nKJV) or

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Originally Posted by BobRyan

2Thess 2 makes that very clear that our "gathering together to him" does NOT happen before the great apostacy before the great falling away being described in 2Thess 2 as lead by the man of sin.

Impossible to miss that point for the careful reader of 2Thess 2.

GE:
Affirmed!
Now harmonise that, with your "Just the "Dead in Christ" according to 1Thess 4" --- impossible.

Besides, where do you find the word or the idea it's "Just the "Dead in Christ" according to 1Thess 4"?

When Christ comes, ALL the dead shall be raised --- is what Christ said, and what the WHOLE NT teaches. Paul in 1Ths4 teaches NO different. We have been over this how many times, but you just shunt aside and DO NOT READ or pay attention WHATEVER another has to say. It's just You, Bob Ryan, and your Church and your prophetess, and away with the rest!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Read 2Thes2 from verse 6b on to verse 15 and see with you own eyes what happens to the reprobate wicked --- and WHEN!

 

[BobRyan]

Bro. Ed, I admit I'm not an expert on end times, but the "falling away" in my opinion is not the rapture but a great apostasy. The word for "falling away" is apostasia or apostasy, a departure from the faith.

That is true -- "our gathering together to him" is never called "falling away".

Hebrews 6:6
and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

So NASB calls it "apostacy"

NASB 2Thess 2

3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God

 

[Ed Edwards]

The only beings invited to the rapture2 (resurrection1 followed by a resurrection1) will be Christians*, Jesus, Archangels, and Angels.

*note: Christians = those gentiles who believe Yeshua is the Messiah & those Messanic Jews who believe Yeshua is the Messiah.

Bro. Ed, I admit I'm not an expert on end times, but the "falling away" in my opinion is not the rapture but a great apostasy. The word for "falling away" is apostasia or apostasy, a departure from the faith.

Ed Edwards: Yes, I agree, that is an opinion.

BobRyan: // That is true -- "our gathering together to him" is never called "falling away". //

Ed Edwards: // actually it is called that in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3. What other terms are used in 2 Thessalonians 2 that describe what is called 'our gathering together to him' in verse 1? Why would Paul say I'm going to talk about 'our gathering together to him' and then never mention it? The only place I've found that so far is in the phrase 'falling away' in verse 3.

and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Alas my Adventist Friend, you don't understand Hebrews 6:1-6. Here is a short explanation:
-----------------------------------
can't find it, I've written it a couple of times???

-----------------------------------

BobRyan: // So NASB calls it "apostacy" BobRyan: //

3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God

NASB is wrong. I though when the editors of the NASB 'updated' it in 1995 they would get it correct.

1. These pre-KJV Bibles all have some form of 'departure' in 2 Thess 2:3

Wycliffe Version 1382
Tyndale 1534
Coverdale 1535
Great Bible 1539
Geneva Bible 1560
Bishops' Bible 1568

2. As a former Software Quality Assurance expert, I am here to tell you that to figure out what is good and what is bad one needs a testable outcome. So that is the way we figure out of the software performs the specified functions: test and see.

2A. 'an apostasy' is untestable - An apostasy is a falling away from the faith, a departure from the faith. How many are falling away? Remember, when God reaches some number (if this really is the measure of what it happening) then ZAP! God is going to let the Antichrist be revealed (shown) among men.

2B. 'a falling away' of the Saints from the earth - that is going to be so testable everybody will hear the noise of the archangels, the Sound of mighty trumpets, the COME UP HERE of Jesus. It is so noisy it will LITERALLY wake the dead. Note to my death friends: If you are a Christian, the first noise you hear on earth will be Jesus calling your out of the grave to fall away from this earth like a dry fig OR if you are still alive, it will still be the first thing that Jesus

(note to others who don't believe my pre-atribulation rapture2 & pre-mill 2ed coming of Jesus theology: feel free to show your own hopes for our deaf friends)

 

[Ed Edwards]

Read 2Thes2 from verse 6b on to verse 15 and see with you own eyes what happens to the reprobate wicked --- and WHEN!

Read Revelation 20 and see with you own eyes what happens to the reprobate wicked --- and WHEN. After the physical future Millennial Messanic Kingdom.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

ED: NASB is wrong………All VALID English Language Bibles​

Collectively and Individually

contain and are


​

the Inerrant and Perfect​

Written Word of God​

preserved by Divine Appointment​

for the generation in which they are translated.​

​

HP: Can you stop vacillating between two opinions long enough for someone to actually debate your comments? Either “all valid English language Bibles are the inerrant and perfect written Word of God preserved by Divine appointment” or they are not. How can you now pick out a translation and say that it is wrong? Are you saying that God is wrong, His Word is wrong, or you are simply confused as to what is the inerrant Word of God and what you really believe?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

ED: Read Revelation 20 and see with you own eyes what happens to the reprobate wicked --- and WHEN. After the physical future Millennial Messanic Kingdom.

HP: I must have missed the part about “the physical future millennial Messianic Kingdom.” Where was that mentioned??

 

[Ed Edwards]

HP: I must have missed the part about “the physical future millennial Messianic Kingdom.” Where was that mentioned??

EE: that exact phrase isn't on the internet till today.

Earlier I got close:
-------------------------

Found at:

http://www.baptistboard.com/archive/index.php/t-12150-p-2.html

On my birthday 2005 I said:

// Phi 4:21 Salute euery Saint in Christ Iesus:
the brethren which are with me, greet you.

A 'saint' is one who is 'in Christ Iesus'.

Thus there are O.T. saints - national Israeli who
believed in the coming Messiah.

Thus there are N.T. saints - mostly Gentiles who
beleive that Jesus was raised from the dead.

Thus there will be Tribulation saints - mostly
national Jewish Israeli who see that their Messiah
is Jesus.

Thus there will be physical Millinnial saints -
Jews and Gentiles together who believe that Jesus
is Lord and Savior. //


To bad i mispelled Millennial - ah well

The Bible talks about three different Kingdom's of God. Others believe in one, two, or three kingdom's of God. So I like to add terms so people will know which Kingdom I'm talking about.

 

[Ed Edwards]

HP: Can you stop vacillating between two opinions long enough for someone to actually debate your comments? Either “all valid English language Bibles are the inerrant and perfect written Word of God preserved by Divine appointment” or they are not. How can you now pick out a translation and say that it is wrong? Are you saying that God is wrong, His Word is wrong, or you are simply confused as to what is the inerrant Word of God and what you really believe?

I have two opinions, both Bible based and non-conflicting.

The other is that

More than one Bible (translation or version) enhances the Bible experience.

One Bible can have an error, and we can figure that out using several versions.
There is but one Bible based opinion that I have.

Someone (I suspect the 'deceiver') has duped many people into the lie: If there is one tinny boo-boo in your Bible then your whole Bible is WRONG. Sorry, I don't buy that untruth. God has preserved the Bible for this generation as well as the other ones. God has preserved His Holy Written Word(s): The Word of God in many Bibles - in the 'ALL SCRIPTURE'. The KJV with the 'Easter' error in it one place clearly has the right termonology in the NASB. The NASB has an oops 'apostasy' in 2 Thess 3:3 but the KJVs have it right: 'falling away'. Go check some other Bibles and you will see - the common part is right.

​

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

ED: Bible talks about three different Kingdom's of God.

HP: Where?

Ed: Others believe in one, two, or three kingdom's of God. So I like to add terms so people will know which Kingdom I'm talking about.

HP: So am I understanding you correctly that when (or if) the Bible makes no clear distinction between kingdoms, you simply add in your own descriptions needed to satisfy or clarify your own conjecture?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Ed: I have two opinions, both Bible based and non-conflicting.

All VALID English Language Bibles
Collectively and Individually
contain and are
the Inerrant and Perfect
Written Word of God
preserved by Divine Appointment
for the generation in which they are translated.​

And the second is like unto it:
More than one Bible (translation or version) enhances the Bible experience.

HP: How do you enhance the Word of God by a translation that is in error? Who made the error, and are you suggesting by your first opinion that God is the Author of error or that error is “Inerrant and perfect written Word of God” and that error is “preserved by Divine appointment??”