The difference between Calvinists and Armenians (as I see it)

[webdog]

Hello npetreley,


Its really no loophole as you know. many have shot this down on here and books have been wrote about it for nearly 200 years since McCabe came up with this idea. Time goes by..and the other side thinks othes have forgotten about it...or they find it as if it is a new idea...and it starts all over. This short posting does not give to a good debate on it, for they change focus. One time God is NOW..next God is later...the next time God is in time...next He is out of time. If they really believed in the NOW...it would be hyper-Calvinism. They can't seem to see this.

You just continue to deny God's true omnipresence, and have shot nothing down here. Sorry for the reality check.

 

[webdog]

Thats right..Paul was hit in the head..for he was not looking for God...now was he? He was CHOOSEN by God...can i have a amen???

Chosen, yes, to be an apostle. He responded (as we can) to this. We are not discussing that point...different topic for a different thread. We are discussing your belief that not all have heard the Gospel.

 

[Jarthur001]

Based on Romans 1 and Ecclesiastes 3:11, I lean towards "yes". You say no, but that cannot be stated as fact.

And so...stay at home....believe all have heard. No need to send a preacher. You KNOW they all heard.

hey Wan....you over there in China!! Your on your own bud. Good luck///I hope you find God. You should...the Bible already says..you know about Him

Come now..i know you do not believe that.

Once you go to a mission feild..you see 1st hand the blindless of the unsaved. It breaks your heart for you want to do something...but you can't. You can't force them. All you can do is share. You go one time..and no matter if your freewill or Calvinist,,it will change you forever.

This is why Calvinist started missions. To Go tell those that had never heard. The Holy Spirit will draw...where does the Holy Spirit live? Can we save them? No...God saves. We are told to go. No matter if one comes or non come. Its not about numbers...its about love for our God.

 

[webdog]

And so...stay at home....believe all have heard. No need to send a preacher. You KNOW they all heard.

*sigh* I never said "all have heard", or there is no need for missionaries. I believe before everyone dies, all will have heard the Gospel presented at some point. Ever hear of the Gospel in the Stars?

 

[Jarthur001]

You just continue to deny God's true omnipresence, and have shot nothing down here. Sorry for the reality check.

I have said many times God indeed is omnipresence and that is why i am a Calvinist.

You claim omnipresence and yet talk as if God is atemporal.

Omnipresence....God Choose in the past...God saved me today...and God takes me home tomorrow. God is in ALL of Time doing His work.


You claim....God did this all at one moment..that my friend is atemporal.
Your view says....forknowing/election happens when God saw you and knew you would believed and thereby elected you all in that moment. This is outside of Time...or atemporal.

 

[Jarthur001]

*sigh* I never said "all have heard", or there is no need for missionaries. I believe before everyone dies, all will have heard the Gospel presented at some point. Ever hear of the Gospel in the Stars?

WAN....hang in there bud...someway somehow, it will come to you.

If you can't find it...look to the stars!!!

Mean time...Gods word says...HOW? HOW?

How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in?
And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard?
And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?
And how can they preach unless they are sent?

As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

And that my friends is what the debate is all about.


IN Christ...James

 

[Brother Bob]

Now, you don't want to believe the Bible. You've made up a whole new religion (although it's not new at all, it's as ancient as every other perversion of the Bible) and you're grinding away at it, probably to convince yourself it's true. I seem to recall that you said in one of these threads that when you made your so-called decision for Christ, you didn't actually feel saved. Maybe there's a reason for that. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, but it's something you might want to give some more thought to take your mind off this barrel organ tune you keep grinding.

You are making up things now Npet, I never said I didn't feel saved and unless you can provide a post with me saying such you owe me an apology.
Also, I am not saying God looks into the future, that is what you are saying. I am saying God is Omnipresence and that He is infinite and that He don't have to look into the future for he is there when you believe He sees you believe, He sees you in your mother's womb, He sees you before the world began. You just can't get it in between those two ears of yours just How powerful God is and keep looking at God as if He were man. He is not man Npet and you need to learn that. I have not questioned your Salvation and you have no business what so ever questioning mine. You can't win the debate so you stoop to the level of trying to say maybe I am not saved now. Well, who am I to argue with a pre-chosen one?

 

[Brother Bob]

How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in?
And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard?
And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?
And how can they preach unless they are sent?

So, Calvinist believe now that Salvation is in a two legged preacher. I thought all the time they believed that the saved were already chosen and didn't really need anything but just sit back and wait. Now they are saying they must have a two legged preacher. No works on their own but they must have the works of a preacher. Amazing!!

Salvation is between a man and God. Under the Law you had to have a high preist but now we have one sitting on the right hand of God and my Bible teaches me that He will put His laws in our hearts and minds.

 

[Brother Bob]

And so...stay at home....believe all have heard. No need to send a preacher. You KNOW they all heard.

If you theory is right there is no need to hear a preacher. Why should you have to hear a preacher if you are already chosen. You are saying God chose you before the foundation of the world but you need the "works" of a preacher to be saved? Maybe Wan is one of the chosen and God is just waiting until the time He sees fit to make it known as He did you.

Man, I am a preacher for 34 years and all this time I didn't know I had the power of Salvation!!!! peace,

 

[Jarthur001]

So, Calvinist believe now that Salvation is in a two legged preacher. I thought all the time they believed that the saved were already chosen and didn't really need anything but just sit back and wait. Now they are saying they must have a two legged preacher. No works on their own but they must have the works of a preacher. Amazing!!

Salvation is between a man and God. Under the Law you had to have a high preist but now we have one sitting on the right hand of God and my Bible teaches me that He will put His laws in our hearts and minds.

Bob,

This is why I have said, you do not understand Calvinism. I did not change. This has always been the case Bob. You just now got it????

They do believe.....we must GO TELL.... it is all in Gods hands. He choose who will hear and believe, and not you. Did you pick to be born on your family?

I thought all the time they believed that the saved were already chosen and didn't really need anything but just sit back and wait.

AND again..this is where you are wrong. I have said..others have said...all Calvinist (other then Hyper) believe in preaching the Word. Go back and read how many times this has been said. You act is if this is the 1st time you have heard this. I always say it. Every Calvinist I know says it. I will say it again. We are told to GO into all the world and preach. Who stated missions? Calvinist!!!

Missionaries

Jonathan Edwards
(1703-1758)

David Brainerd
(1718-1747)

William Carey
(1761-1834)

Robert Moffat

David Livingstone

John G. Paton

John R. Mott


All were Calvinist!!

Now they are saying they must have a two legged preacher.

again..we have always said it. It is clear you do not read the post.

Amazing!!

It is amazing you just found this out. Now do you believe as we?

I can not believe this is the 1st time you have read this. Come now Bob..all of us have said this.




I hope you now understand.


In Christ...James

 

[The Archangel]

To All...

I really hate to stir-up a can of worms. But all of this talk and debate and rancor about election (and election is something I believe in whole-heartedly) leads me to ask a question:

What about Israel?

God chose them, right? If it is the case that God chose the Nation of Israel (which the Bible CLEARLY teaches), why is it so unfair for Him to choose individuals?

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[Jarthur001]

If you theory is right there is no need to hear a preacher. Why should you have to hear a preacher if you are already chosen. You are saying God chose you before the foundation of the world but you need the "works" of a preacher to be saved? Maybe Wan is one of the chosen and God is just waiting until the time He sees fit to make it known as He did you.

Man, I am a preacher for 34 years and all this time I didn't know I had the power of Salvation!!!! peace,

Bob,

How many times must we say...

No one is born saved...they are elected to salvation.
We are told to GO TELL!!! Going does not save, God does.

You are saying God chose you before the foundation of the world but you need the "works" of a preacher to be saved?

No!! I'm saying Gods word says HE choose me from the foundation of the world. And....I have no idea how He will save others. It maybe though a preacher...or it maybe thought another means. Now again...can you take pride that you were born with more grace? How did God save you? Who sent the good news to you? Was it God? I bet it was.

Maybe Wan is one of the chosen and God is just waiting until the time He sees fit to make it known as He did you.

I agree. The fact is..we do not know How God will save, if indeed he will save Wan. All we know, is that God had grace on us, and we are told to go tell. The Holy Spirit draws .....and where is the home of the Holy Spirit? So...when we share...is it us sharing or God? If you try to save someone...they will be lost in the end. If God saves them..it always works.

Man, I am a preacher for 34 years and all this time I didn't know I had the power of Salvation!!!!

And Bob...you don't. It is Gods work. God choose to tell you about the Gospel. You was given more grace then Wan. Will Wan be saved? I do not know. God does. All we are told..is...GO TELL.



In Christ...James

 

[Jarthur001]

I really hate to stir-up a can of worms. But all of this talk and debate and rancor about election (and election is something I believe in whole-heartedly) leads me to ask a question:

What about Israel?

God chose them, right? If it is the case that God chose the Nation of Israel (which the Bible CLEARLY teaches), why is it so unfair for Him to choose individuals?

Blessings,

The Archangel

Indeed....


And many forget this. One nation out of many many many nations. All the other nations did not have God to give them blessings. Was it because they were holy? In no way. They were not good sinners just as all of us. WHY? Because God wanted to choose them. My little girl got this on her own when she was 5 years old. She came to me and asked...why did God choose the jews...if they kept sinning all the time. she had no idea how deep that was. The grace of God...is all you can say.



In Christ...James

 

[Brother Bob]

Bob,

This is why I have said, you do not understand Calvinism. I did not change. This has always been the case Bob. You just now got it????

They do believe.....we must GO TELL.... it is all in Gods hands. He choose who will hear and believe, and not you. Did you pick to be born on your family?

Quote:
I thought all the time they believed that the saved were already chosen and didn't really need anything but just sit back and wait.
AND again..this is where you are wrong. I have said..others have said...all Calvinist (other then Hyper) believe in preaching the Word. Go back and read how many times this has been said. You act is if this is the 1st time you have heard this. I always say it. Every Calvinist I know says it. I will say it again. We are told to GO into all the world and preach. Who stated missions? Calvinist!!!

No, I know the Calvinist believe in preaching. This is where you do not understand me. Under the Law they had a high preist who was the only one allowed behind the second veil to offer up and offering for the sins of the people. That is what Jesus fulfilled for He became our High Preist for ever and sat down on the right hand of God in the Holiest place of all.
I preach all the time that you do not have to go to someone like me or all the preachers on here anymore to be saved for Salvation is between you and the Lord. All I and others do is preach the word but as far as Salvation, the Bible says Salvaltion is of the Lord.
I preach you have to go to the High preist but not one here on earth. You Calvinist have jumped on us over and over about works Salvation and now you say it takes the works of another to save you. Your doctrine is getting worse rather than better.
If for one moment you think God needs you or me to save someone then you are mistaken and badly mistaken. I will defend everyone's right to go to the Lord for themselves until the day I die for it is the "word of the Lord".
"Go ye not from house to house saying (know ye the Lord) for they shall know me from the least unto the greatest. I will be interested in knowing if the other Calvinist believe that in order to be saved they must have a two legged preacher. I know they believe in going into all the world and preach the Gospel but I didn't know they believed you had to have the "works" of another to be saved when they are all time saying this in not a "works" Salvation. peace

 

[Brother Bob]

What about Israel?

God chose them, right? If it is the case that God chose the Nation of Israel (which the Bible CLEARLY teaches), why is it so unfair for Him to choose individuals?

You fail to mention that He was going to use Israel to make a way for all people. It was part of His plan and He was right there when Jacob was born and saw Jacob and Essau while they were still in their mother's womb and said the elder shall serve the younger but He said in thee shall all nations be blessed. When He chose Israel, He chose a way where we all could have a right to the tree of life. Deep? yes itis deep much deeper than you just stated.



Mic 4:2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

 

[Jarthur001]

No, I know the Calvinist believe in preaching. This is where you do not understand me. Under the Law they had a high preist who was the only one allowed behind the second veil to offer up and offering for the sins of the people. That is what Jesus fulfilled for He became our High Preist for ever and sat down on the right hand of God in the Holiest place of all.
I preach all the time that you do not have to go to someone like me or all the preachers on here anymore to be saved for Salvation is between you and the Lord. All I and others do is preach the word but as far as Salvation, the Bible says Salvaltion is of the Lord.
I preach you have to go to the High preist but not one here on earth. You Calvinist have jumped on us over and over about works Salvation and now you say it takes the works of another to save you. Your doctrine is getting worse rather than better.
If for one moment you think God needs you or me to save someone then you are mistaken and badly mistaken. I will defend everyone's right to go to the Lord for themselves until the day I die for it is the "word of the Lord".
"Go ye not from house to house saying (know ye the Lord) for they shall know me from the least unto the greatest. I will be interested in knowing if the other Calvinist believe that in order to be saved they must have a two legged preacher. I know they believe in going into all the world and preach the Gospel but I didn't know they believed you had to have the "works" of another to be saved when they are all time saying this in not a "works" Salvation. peace

Bob,

It is not i that says GO TELL. It is Gods word. Romans 10...read it.

Notice I have never said this will save Wan. Wan maybe saved....but that is not up to me. God says GO TELL.

Wan may get hit over the head just as Paul. I do not know, but God does. But it is not for me to know. God only tells me to GO TELL.

Is it works? It can be. If its in works...its wrong. If its in love...then it will show when I tell Wan the Good News. We are to love God so much that we would have it no other way. GO TELL in love.

I will be interested in knowing if the other Calvinist believe that in order to be saved they must have a two legged preacher.

No one said a preacher would save. That is not the point. Wan had no preacher...you had a preacher...or someone to tell you. Did someone share with you? Or maybe one day...without knowing of God...not knowing of Christ...not knowing of hell...maybe one day...not knowing of Heaven.....not knowing you were a sinner...maybe one day you just woke up and got yourself save. I know better then that.

Who told you about God? Why has Wan not heard? That my friend is Gods grace. And you can have no pride in that..for you did not choose to be Bob. Wan did not choose to be Wan. God placed you in KY....did He not?

 

[Jarthur001]

You fail to mention that He was going to use Israel to make a way for all people. It was part of His plan and He was right there when Jacob was born and saw Jacob and Essau while they were still in their mother's womb and said the elder shall serve the younger but He said in thee shall all nations be blessed. When He chose Israel, He chose a way where we all could have a right to the tree of life. Deep? yes itis deep much deeper than you just stated.



Mic 4:2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

and you failed to say..

2I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,

3And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

4Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever.

how long?

 

[Brother Bob]

Who told you about God? Why has Wan not heard? That my friend is Gods grace

How do you know that Wan has not heard, this I do not understand? If God says they "shall" know me then how is it you can say that Wan doesn't know Him or heard of Him or anything? peace enough said about Wan,

 

[Brother Bob]

2I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,

God sees Esau sell his birthright.

God chose Israel as He chose Apostle to preach to the Gentile to fulfill His plan of Salvation to all men.

4Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever.

how long?

Means what it says for Edom/Esau is a type and figure of the lost and the lost is lost forever. amen,

Esau was a type of the sinful flesh which will never inherit Heaven but must be changed.

 

[Jarthur001]

How do you know that Wan has not heard, this I do not understand? If God says they "shall" know me then how is it you can say that Wan doesn't know Him or heard of Him or anything? peace enough said about Wan,

Bob,

1st I'm going out of town tomorrow. Pray that God will keep me safe on the road.

2nd...Pray that I have a chance to talk with a few folks I have on my mind. There are 2 families I will be around that need God in their life.

3rd...Your have to debate with others...or take the weekend off and take your wife out on a date.

BUT TONIGHT............one more about WAN.

I have never been to China and I do not know Wan. Yet I have been other places and I know there are Toms, Marys, Karens, Roy's and Bobs that do not knew of God. I don't know Wan, but I know there is a Wan there in China and in Ohio and down the road from me. There are Wans all over the place. Some have heard the Word and others have not. It is God that elects...not I. You and I are to preach or share to all that we can. Be it China, Ohio, or WV.

I'll try to be back on later. I need to pack.


In Christ...James