The disasterous failure of the early church

[saturneptune]

I have a question. If Jesus' life is the model for Christians. And we see that as he was baptised (not that he needed it but for "all righteousness to be fulfilled" and as an example for us) that the Holy Spirit descended upon him. Do you think it can be looked at that upon our belief and subsequent baptism (under normal circumstances not that circumstance may change)that the Holy Spirit at that time descends upon us in which a "Pentecost" experience is not necissary going forward? It also seems to me that upon reciept of faith even before baptism with Cornelius that the Holy Spirit descended whereby the special circumstance for Peter was to provide a sign in which even gentiles are called to the kingdom. But in both cases the Holy Spirit is fully revealed at the begining for us at Faith with its gifting. Reminder this is just my speculation not a laying down of Doctrine for me.

If you are concerned about how Jesus Christ was baptised and the manner in which it was done, then why do you belong to a denomination that does not follow this model, aside from the spiritual gifts?

 

[Yeshua1]

May I ask what scripture provides you with a basis to claim that every detail of Christ's life was a "model" for us? How about his virgin birth? How about walking on water? How about......? What makes you think that the Holy Spirit coming upon him at baptism is a "model" for us any more than hearing a voice out of heaven speak to him is a model for us?



However, is not the promise of the Spirit baptism to those who are already baptized believers (Mt. 3:11; Acts 1:5)?

No, for we ALL have partaken of SAME Spirit, and that we ALl have already been baptised by god at the rebirth!

 

[Yeshua1]

He was only in the NT.
He was working long before the Holy Spirit replaced Jesus.
He was working before Jesus did His foist miracle.

I don't know if these 4 men did any S-W-M.
If they did NOT, it was because they did NOT believe in them.

Belief in the Lord's S-W-M diminished gradually over the 1800 years
until at the end of the 1800's there was NO belief left.

Then, the Lord revitalized modern-day Pentecost (for the end of the end times).

But then, Satan is involved in the affairs of man also ... as he always has been (allowed to).
.

Are you part of the latter day rain/restoration of the 5 fold ministries groups?

 

[evangelist-7]

Are you part of the latter day rain/restoration of the 5 fold ministries groups?

Sorry, I didn't know there were such as those.
I'ze not part of any group ... except the born-again and then Spirit-baptized group.

Honestly, I'd have to say that the Spirit taught me about 95% of all I know spiritually.

Here's some things I know for sure

The following were to be carried on forever after the apostles died off ...

1 -- true believers were to be born-again
2 -- some true believers were to be ANOINTED for special ministry (through the baptism with the Holy Spirit)
3 -- #2 believers were to LEAD the church, i.e. the 5-fold ministry, Eph 4:11 (esp. the apostles and the prophets)
4 -- #2 believers were to have strong FAITH in God's S-W-M
5 -- #2 believers were to expect God's S-W-M to accompany their preaching of the gospel

John 20:
30 And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book;
31 but these (signs) are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God,
and that believing you may have life in His name.

"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever" (Hebrews 13:8)

My apologies go out to Biblicist and others for repeating the same things over and over and over and over ...
.

 

[Yeshua1]

Sorry, I didn't know there were such as those.
I'ze not part of any group ... except the born-again and then Spirit-baptized group.

Honestly, I'd have to say that the Spirit taught me about 95% of all I know spiritually.

Here's some things I know for sure

The following were to be carried on forever after the apostles died off ...

1 -- true believers were to be born-again
2 -- some true believers were to be ANOINTED for special ministry (through the baptism with the Holy Spirit)
3 -- #2 believers were to LEAD the church, i.e. the 5-fold ministry, Eph 4:11 (esp. the apostles and the prophets)
4 -- #2 believers were to have strong FAITH in God's S-W-M
5 -- #2 believers were to expect God's S-W-M to accompany their preaching of the gospel

John 20:
30 And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book;
31 but these (signs) are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God,
and that believing you may have life in His name.

"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever" (Hebrews 13:8)

My apologies go out to Biblicist and others for repeating the same things over and over and over and over ...
.

Do yoyu see the church having modern day prophets/Apostles that have the means to give forth revelations from God as the OT prophets/NT Apsotles were gifted to do?

That they can write with infallible understandings on the bible and the doctrines of the faith as they could?

 

[The Biblicist]

No, for we ALL have partaken of SAME Spirit, and that we ALl have already been baptised by god at the rebirth!

Scripture please rather than a mindless unsupported reptitious hindu like mantra.

 

[evangelist-7]

Do you see the church having modern day prophets/Apostles that have the means
to give forth revelations from God as the OT prophets/NT Apsotles were gifted to do?
That they can write with infallible understandings on the bible and the doctrines of the faith as they could?

Oh yes, in the past few decades (right now, I don't know), there definitely have been
apostles, prophets, evangelists every bit as spiritually powerful as in NT times.

But, whatever these men and women say, write, do ... must come directly from the Holy Spirit!
(My wife is one prime example.)
If they do this, why not be as powerful as they were 2000 years ago?

'Tis all very simple when one gets the false teachings of Satan, the church, individuals, etc. out of the way.

Meaning people like you.
Hey, you CAN come into the knowledge of the Truth!
You certainly seem eager to figure all of this out ... I.E. you seem to be OPEN to discovering the Truth.
Please tell me if I'm wrong ... if so, I will stop wasting my time.
.

 

[The Biblicist]

Oh yes, in the past few decades (right now, I don't know), there definitely have been
apostles, prophets, evangelists every bit as spiritually powerful as in NT times.

But, whatever these men and women say, write, do ... must come directly from the Holy Spirit!
(My wife is one prime example.)
If they do this, why not be as powerful as they were 2000 years ago?

'Tis all very simple when one gets the false teachings of Satan, the church, individuals, etc. out of the way.

Meaning people like you.
Hey, you CAN come into the knowledge of the Truth!
You certainly seem eager to figure all of this out ... I.E. you seem to be OPEN to discovering the Truth.
Please tell me if I'm wrong ... if so, I will stop wasting my time.
.

You are one spiritually messed up puppy!

 

[Yeshua1]

Scripture please rather than a mindless unsupported reptitious hindu like mantra.

Ask and ye shall receive!

English Standard Version (©2001)
For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

 

[evangelist-7]

English Standard Version (©2001)
For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—
and all were made to drink of (or by) one Spirit.

Yes, this is definitely what happens when people become born-again ...
with the Holy Spirit coming INSIDE of them (ref. many verses)
and staying there forever (John 14:16-17) until they die.

They all become one in Christ Jesus.

They were all baptized BY the Holy Spirit ... but dey wuz NOT baptized BY Jesus.
.

 

[The Biblicist]

Ask and ye shall receive!

English Standard Version (©2001)
For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

You have just jerked a scripture out of its context and applied it to something it says nothing about.

The promised baptism in the gospels prior to Pentecost did not have "one body" as the element but the Spirit as the element. The baptizer was Christ not the Spirit. Read Mt. 3:11.

The preposition "en" is used consistently from verse 3 to verse 13 and should not be translated "in" but rather "by" or better yet "under the leadership of" as the contrast is first made in verses 2-3 between the LEADERSHIP or being LED BY demonic spirits verus the Holy Spirit.

 

[DHK]

Honestly, I'd have to say that the Spirit taught me about 95% of all I know spiritually.
.

Which spirit? ??

 

[Yeshua1]

You have just jerked a scripture out of its context and applied it to something it says nothing about.

The promised baptism in the gospels prior to Pentecost did not have "one body" as the element but the Spirit as the element. The baptizer was Christ not the Spirit. Read Mt. 3:11.

The preposition "en" is used consistently from verse 3 to verse 13 and should not be translated "in" but rather "by" or better yet "under the leadership of" as the contrast is first made in verses 2-3 between the LEADERSHIP or being LED BY demonic spirits verus the Holy Spirit.

So you do not see all christians having same holy spiorit, that we are all one in Christ and connected to him thru/by the Spirit?

And you do not see that the Baptism in/of the Holy spirit is something that God has donne on behalf of all christians, as that initial Act of God placed them into a spiritual union with christ?

Are you arguing here for a baptism /act/work of the Spirit apart and addition to what happens when a sinner becomes a saint?

And how can God grant 'extra' to a water baptised saint when All have the same amount of the Spriit and are all in Christ, with each one having ALl spireitual blessings by/in him already?

 

[billwald]

>Most Christians don’t want to hear that God has anointed others
with powerful spiritual gifts … when they have not been.
This attitude has resulted in a weak and powerless church over the years.

>Yes, this is the condition of the church today … but it started some 1800 years ago!

The initial post made a serious error. God had continually blessed some people with powerful spiritual gifts and confirmed these people with miracles. We don't know about these people because the torch has been passed to South America, Asia, and Africa. God gave up on Europe centuries ago.

 

[DHK]

>Most Christians don’t want to hear that God has anointed others
with powerful spiritual gifts … when they have not been.
This attitude has resulted in a weak and powerless church over the years.

>Yes, this is the condition of the church today … but it started some 1800 years ago!

The initial post made a serious error. God had continually blessed some people with powerful spiritual gifts and confirmed these people with miracles. We don't know about these people because the torch has been passed to South America, Asia, and Africa. God gave up on Europe centuries ago.

The "Gnostics" always claimed to have "higher knowledge." They got it from some mystical source. What is your source for this revelation of yours?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

When you learn to address me appropriately, I might consider trying to have an adult, rational discussion with you -- if that is even possible.

Anointing certain people for special purposes is another matter entirely than trying to set up two classes of Christians -- those who have received "the baptism" with the implication of spiritual superiority, and those who have not received " the baptism". That is totally unscriptural.

The youth of today have a lax understanding of proper manners.

 

[evangelist-7]

The initial post made a serious error.
God had continually blessed some people with powerful spiritual gifts and confirmed these people with miracles.
We don't know about these people because the torch has been passed to South America, Asia, and Africa.
God gave up on Europe centuries ago.

Yes, I went a bit overboard.
Some people did continue with God's S-W-M, but it gradually died out to basically zero by 1900,
which is da point I was trying to make.
.

 

[evangelist-7]

The youth of today have a lax understanding of proper manners.

I'm 72 ... you includin' me in that group?

P.S. -- God's evangelists are not real big on manners?

2nd P.S. -- Was Jesus? (Sorry, that's too deep for some of you.)
.

 

[evangelist-7]

Do you see the church having modern day prophets/Apostles that have the means
to give forth revelations from God as the OT prophets/NT Apostles were gifted to do?

That they can write with infallible understandings on the bible and the doctrines of the faith as they could?

I made some grievous errors in post #45 while answering this!

I was not thinking of the OT prophets at all.
I was not thinking of the NT apostle Paul.
I was not thinking of John the Baptist (pre-Christian).
Gee, I wasn't thinking much at all ... and I apologize for that.

The only thing I was thinking about was ...
the Holy Spirit has been speaking powerfully to God's anointed believers throughout history (since Abram)!
.

 

[billwald]

>>The initial post made a serious error. God had continually blessed some people with powerful spiritual gifts and confirmed these people with miracles. We don't know about these people because the torch has been passed to South America, Asia, and Africa. God gave up on Europe centuries ago.


>The "Gnostics" always claimed to have "higher knowledge." They got it from some mystical source. What is your source for this revelation of yours?

Personal conversation with missionaries, some of whom are Baptists.