The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective

[MarysSon]

Yeah but we need to distinguish your church from the Universal Catholic Church.

I am very well aware. But again, full communion with the Bishop of Rome distinguishes you as the RCC. You are arguing semantics. Sorry, not going to let you get by with that deception. This is what Catholics revert to when they know they have lost the theological point.


No, it is distinguishing what exactly we are talking about. I am fully aware of liturgical rites.


Yes, but that is not the same catholic church in the Bible.

Yes, just not the Roman Catholic Church.

Again, you are trying to argue semantics. Not going to let that deception fly.

No “deception” here – just the historical facts.

The Catholic Church IS the Universal Church. Your attempt to “distinguish” one from the other is redundant.

And, apparently you are NOT familiar with Liturgical Rites or you wouldn’t call a Byzantine Catholic or a Melkite Catholic or Maronite Catholic a “Roman” Catholic. You are either being purposely ignorant or just obstinate.

As for it NOT being the same Catholic Church of the Bible – that’s where you are wrong. We have the Letters of St. Ignatius of Antioch – a FIRST CENTURY Bishop – who calls the Church, “The Catholic Church”. This is used as a title and not as a mere description in his Letter to the Smyrnaeans.
Ignatius was a student of the Apostle John and wrote this letter while John was still presumably alive.

Study your Bible – AND your history . . .

 

[MarysSon]

Once again, Catholics make up their own doctrine, in this case they think Celibacy > God's commands about a Bishop being the husband of one wife. God clearly COMMANDS that Bishops be the husband of one wife. Catholics decide "No thanks, I know better than God, we just need to be celibate". It is a laughable interpretation.

Please show me God said that a Priest should be a single, celibate man.

Your ignorance is astounding.
You know almost nothing about 1st century culture – yet you comment about it like you are an “expert”.

Allow me to educate you . . .

Nobody was “commanded” to be the husband of one wife in the NT. They were told that if they were going to be a Bishop – they should ONLY be the husband of one wife.

Polygamy was rampant among the Gentiles that Paul was writing to in the NT. He was a letting them know that this was NOT going to fly with leaders of the Church.

As for celibacy – Paul RECOMMENDED it as a more excellent way to serve God for those capable of it:

1 Cor. 7:8-9
“To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is well for them to remain single as I am. But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to be aflame with passion”.

1 Cor. 7:27-34
“Are you free from a wife? Do not seek marriage. . . . The unmarried man is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to please the Lord; but the married man is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please his wife, and his interests are divided. And the unmarried woman or girl is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to be holy in body and spirit; but the married woman is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please her husband”.

Paul concludes that, he who marries “does well; and he who refrains from marriage will do better” (7:38).

So much for your false accusations . . .

 

[Walter]

No “deception” here – just the historical facts.

The Catholic Church IS the Universal Church. Your attempt to “distinguish” one from the other is redundant.

And, apparently you are NOT familiar with Liturgical Rites or you wouldn’t call a Byzantine Catholic or a Melkite Catholic or Maronite Catholic a “Roman” Catholic. You are either being purposely ignorant or just obstinate.

As for it NOT being the same Catholic Church of the Bible – that’s where you are wrong. We have the Letters of St. Ignatius of Antioch – a FIRST CENTURY Bishop – who calls the Church, “The Catholic Church”. This is used as a title and not as a mere description in his Letter to the Smyrnaeans.
Ignatius was a student of the Apostle John and wrote this letter while John was still presumably alive.

Study your Bible – AND your history . . .

History means nothing to him. He is rabidly anti -Catholic and will refuse to admit that the eastern rites you listed have married priests. I have debated some of these chuckleheads for years and they are not willing to hear anything different than what they already believe about The Catholic Church

 

[Reformed1689]

You constantly imply it by your lack of respect for the early Church Fathers and Catholic Tradition.

I don't have respect for unbiblical traditions. You are correct.

David will now locate the explicit prohibition against abortion in the Bible!

Thou shall not kill. Doesn't get more explicit than that.

LOL. You are not a scholar. On the other hand, I have been a Teaching Fellow in Scripture and Classical History at Harvard.

I'm not a scholar? How do you figure? You don't know me.

Even your ancestors well understood this which is why they are Protestant, protesting the Church and Reformers seeking to reform the Church.

They protested the ROMAN Catholic Church. The church run by Rome.

We were true church? Well thats funny from a once saved always saved camp. You say we had it right once, when was that and when and what did we depart from?

You were once PART of the true church.

Purgatory being a "PLACE" or taking TIME are speculations probably brought on by Jewish teaching of purgatory.

Nope. I already showed you it is in the CCC.

 

[MarysSon]

History means nothing to him. He is rabidly anti -Catholic and will refuse to admit that the eastern rites you listed have married priests. I have debated some of these chuckleheads for years and they are not willing to hear anything different than what they already believe about The Catholic Church

That is precisely the pride of the Pharisees that Jesus condemned when He rebuked them:
John 9:41
"If you were blind you would have no sin; but since you say 'We see', your sin remains."

 

[Walpole]

Jesus stated that salvation was paid for in full, accomplished, so why the need for it?

Do you think the consequences of your sin was paid in full and thus you are clean enough to stand before God right now?

 

[JoeT]

Pretty sure nowhere in Scripture does it say anything at all about the Roman Catholic Church.

You know, that's true. Sacred Scripture refers to the Church as "The Way". This is the first name of the Catholic Church then little by little the adjective used to describe her was turned to a noun. [Matthew 3:3; John 14:6; Acts 24:14] Conversely, your way leads to whom? John Smyth, a man? The Didache, otherwise known as "The Lord's Teaching Through the Twelve Apostles to the Nations" the oldest Catholic catechism of the Church,The Way, yet found, circa 90 A.D., even before the 73 books were ever bound into one text, Catholicism was there, organized, sanctified an eternal Body of Christ. The Didache begins "There are two ways, one of life and one of death". Obviously, there is one way leading to salvation left to you and another leads where?


JoeT

 

[JoeT]

Do you think the consequences of your sin was paid in full and thus you are clean enough to stand before God right now?

I'm a bit puzzled, where does it say that both the guilt and the punishment of sin is removed after Baptism? Take for example King David. We see he was forgiven, but yet had to suffer the punishment after he made a contrite confession. [Cf. 2 Kings 12:13]. Is it that Protestants don't have to take responsibility for their acts because Jesus paid the penal price?

JoeT

 

[Reformed1689]

You know, that's true. Sacred Scripture refers to the Church as "The Way". This is the first name of the Catholic Church then little by little the adjective used to describe her was turned to a noun. [Matthew 3:3; John 14:6; Acts 24:14] Conversely, your way leads to whom? John Smyth, a man? The Didache, otherwise known as "The Lord's Teaching Through the Twelve Apostles to the Nations" the oldest Catholic catechism of the Church,The Way, yet found, circa 90 A.D., even before the 73 books were ever bound into one text, Catholicism was there, organized, sanctified an eternal Body of Christ. The Didache begins "There are two ways, one of life and one of death". Obviously, there is one way leading to salvation left to you and another leads where?


JoeT

Yeah there are only 66 books. The Apocryphal books are not Scripture.

 

[JoeT]

Yeah there are only 66 books. The Apocryphal books are not Scripture.

You're evading the substance of the argument, creating a diversion. I don't care that you don't recognize deuterocanonical books. For the sake of this discussion, I'll concede to 66 Books. You had indicated an assurance that "Scripture [doesn't] say anything at all about the Roman Catholic Church". In response, I agreed but pointed out that it was called by another name which is indeed in Scripture.

"Sacred Scripture refers to the Church as "The Way". This is the first name of the Catholic Church then little by little the adjective used to describe her was turned to a noun. [Matthew 3:3; John 14:6; Acts 24:14] Conversely, your way leads to whom? John Smyth, a man? The Didache, otherwise known as "The Lord's Teaching Through the Twelve Apostles to the Nations" the oldest Catholic catechism of the Church,The Way, yet found, circa 90 A.D., even before the 73 [or 66] books were ever bound into one text, Catholicism was there, organized, sanctified an eternal Body of Christ. The Didache begins "There are two ways, one of life and one of death". Obviously, there is one way leading to salvation left to you and another leads where?"

Practice the manly art of responding directly to the proposition. How do you explain that the same Church called "The Way" is universally called the Catholic Church by the end of the 2nd century?

JoeT

 

[Reformed1689]

You're evading the substance of the argument, creating a diversion. I don't care that you don't recognize deuterocanonical books. For the sake of this discussion, I'll concede to 66 Books. You had indicated an assurance that "Scripture [doesn't] say anything at all about the Roman Catholic Church". In response, I agreed but pointed out that it was called by another name which is indeed in Scripture.

"Sacred Scripture refers to the Church as "The Way". This is the first name of the Catholic Church then little by little the adjective used to describe her was turned to a noun. [Matthew 3:3; John 14:6; Acts 24:14] Conversely, your way leads to whom? John Smyth, a man? The Didache, otherwise known as "The Lord's Teaching Through the Twelve Apostles to the Nations" the oldest Catholic catechism of the Church,The Way, yet found, circa 90 A.D., even before the 73 [or 66] books were ever bound into one text, Catholicism was there, organized, sanctified an eternal Body of Christ. The Didache begins "There are two ways, one of life and one of death". Obviously, there is one way leading to salvation left to you and another leads where?"

Practice the manly art of responding directly to the proposition. How do you explain that the same Church called "The Way" is universally called the Catholic Church by the end of the 2nd century?

JoeT

You want an answer? Here it is. The Roman Church of today, known as "The Catholic Church" is not the same church on the Way found in Scripture. You are a false church with false teachings.

 

[Adonia]

You want an answer? Here it is. The Roman Church of today, known as "The Catholic Church" is not the same church on the Way found in Scripture. You are a false church with false teachings.

And your church is not a false one also? Remember, there wasn't a Baptist around until John Smythe in the 17th century.

 

[Reformed1689]

And your church is not a false one also? Remember, there wasn't a Baptist around until John Smythe in the 17th century.

It depends on the church.

 

[JoeT]

You want an answer? Here it is. The Roman Church of today, known as "The Catholic Church" is not the same church on the Way found in Scripture. You are a false church with false teachings.

When did it change?

JoeT

 

[robycop3]

Like the rabbis, Paul locates Paradise in the 3rd Heaven 2 Corinthians 12:2-3), thus implying the existence of multiple heavens and raising the question of the 2 lower heavens. Since, once again, Paul continues to embrace his Jewish view, then the suffering of the 2nd Heaven (2 Enoch 8:1-3; cp. 7:1ff) serves as precedent for the later Catholic concept of Purgatory. Catholics pray for souls in Purgatory, and so, Christ is present there to answer their prayers. Paradise is the preferred initial arrival point for the newly deceased.

the atmosphere is thw 1st heaven. Space is the 2nd heaven. The supernatural world is the 3rd heaven.

The whole purgatory doctrine is phony as a Chevy Mustang. It's just another of the many RC man-made false doctrines.

 

[MarysSon]

It depends on the church.

Christ built ONE Church.
Every protestant group is not a "church" by that definition, but an ecclesial community which is related to that ONE Church.

Unfortunately, they are all self-separated from that ONE Church - in dire need of coming home.

 

[MarysSon]

Practice the manly art of responding directly to the proposition. How do you explain that the same Church called "The Way" is universally called the Catholic Church by the end of the 2nd century?

JoeT

Actually, by the end of the first century.

 

[MarysSon]

the atmosphere is thw 1st heaven. Space is the 2nd heaven. The supernatural world is the 3rd heaven.

The whole purgatory doctrine is phony as a Chevy Mustang. It's just another of the many RC man-made false doctrines.

Time for a Bible lesson . . .

1 Cor. 3:10-15
"According to the grace of God given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But each one must be careful how he builds upon it, for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day (judgment) will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each one’s
work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person WILL be saved, but only as through fire."

This event (the Day) is taking place AFTER we die.
a) This cannot be Heaven because the person will SUFFER ‐ and there is NO suffering in Heaven.
b) This cannot be Hell because the person will be SAVED ‐ and there is NO salvation in Hell.
c) This is describing a THIRD state – a state of Final Purification.

Waiting for your response . . .

 

[Adonia]

It depends on the church.

As the recent spat with 3rdAngel shows, Catholics and Baptists do indeed have some common belief's. We both worship on Sunday, we both believe in the Trinity, we both believe in Jesus Christ as the Savior and we both believe in getting baptized. Now from some of those points we have different doctrinal differences - but at least it's a start to common understanding. Even though we differ, you folks are in the main just like us in trying to live holy and pleasing lives for the Lord within the context of our particular religious faith tradition.

 

[JoeT]

Actually, by the end of the first century.

How?

How do you explain that Christ said the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church [Matthew 16:18], yet you have the eternal consecrated Church ending in the first century - before Sacred Scripture was complied - only to be 're-established' some 1500 years later in the church of anarchy? What about the living stones that built up the first century Church, do they lay in a rubble heap somewhere?

JoeT