The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective

[MarysSon]

How?

How do you explain that Christ said the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church [Matthew 16:18], yet you have the eternal consecrated Church ending in the first century - before Sacred Scripture was complied - only to be 're-established' some 1500 years later in the church of anarchy? What about the living stones that built up the first century Church, do they lay in a rubble heap somewhere?

JoeT

I think we have a communication gap.

You stated:
"How do you explain that the same Church called "The Way" is universally called the Catholic Church by the end of the 2nd century?"

I agree with you - but it was called the "The Catholic Church" by the end of the first century.

 

[robycop3]

As the recent spat with 3rdAngel shows, Catholics and Baptists do indeed have some common belief's. We both worship on Sunday, we both believe in the Trinity, we both believe in Jesus Christ as the Savior and we both believe in getting baptized. Now from some of those points we have different doctrinal differences - but at least it's a start to common understanding. Even though we differ, you folks are in the main just like us in trying to live holy and pleasing lives for the Lord within the context of our particular religious faith tradition.

far as that goes, we have some common beliefs with such cults as JW & LDS.

The probs we have with the RCC is not about common beliefs, but with the RCC's MAN-MADE false doctrines such as mariolatry, purgatory, office of pope with his Dagon-head mitres, creation of man-made saints, etc.

 

[Reformed1689]

Unfortunately, they are all self-separated from that ONE Church - in dire need of coming home.

No. The Roman Catholic Church separated itself from the one church.

 

[Reformed1689]

Time for a Bible lesson . . .

1 Cor. 3:10-15
"According to the grace of God given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But each one must be careful how he builds upon it, for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day (judgment) will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each one’s
work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person WILL be saved, but only as through fire."

This event (the Day) is taking place AFTER we die.
a) This cannot be Heaven because the person will SUFFER ‐ and there is NO suffering in Heaven.
b) This cannot be Hell because the person will be SAVED ‐ and there is NO salvation in Hell.
c) This is describing a THIRD state – a state of Final Purification.

Waiting for your response . . .

This is takling about the final judgement. This is not difficult.

 

[Reformed1689]

How?

How do you explain that Christ said the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church [Matthew 16:18], yet you have the eternal consecrated Church ending in the first century - before Sacred Scripture was complied - only to be 're-established' some 1500 years later in the church of anarchy? What about the living stones that built up the first century Church, do they lay in a rubble heap somewhere?

JoeT

Yes. But what you FAIL to understand is the Church is not an organization. It is the body of believers that follow Scripture.

 

[Reformed1689]

we both believe in getting baptized.

You can't count baptism. Your baptism is not found in Scripture.

Even though we differ, you folks are in the main just like us in trying to live holy and pleasing lives for the Lord within the context of our particular religious faith tradition.

Muslims can even make that claim.

 

[robycop3]

Christ built ONE Church.
Every protestant group is not a "church" by that definition, but an ecclesial community which is related to that ONE Church.

Unfortunately, they are all self-separated from that ONE Church - in dire need of coming home.

And umpteen dozen denoms, cults, & sects claim to be that one church. Well, it's sure not the RCC, which follows both some of the commands of God plus the traditions of men, despite Jesus' scathing admonition to some Pharisees for doing the exact same thing.

Mark 7: 1Then the Pharisees and some of the scribes came together to Him, having come from Jerusalem. 2 Now when they saw some of His disciples eat bread with defiled, that is, with unwashed hands, they found fault. 3 For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they wash their hands in a special way, holding the tradition of the elders. 4 When they come from the marketplace, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other things which they have received and hold, like the washing of cups, pitchers, copper vessels, and couches.5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, “Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands?”6 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:

‘This people honors Me with their lips,But their heart is far from Me.7 And in vain they worship Me,Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men—the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition.

 

[MarysSon]

No. The Roman Catholic Church separated itself from the one church.

Never heard of the "Roman" Church.
I know the Catholic Church has been here since Christ and His Apostles built it 2000 years ago.

When was this "Roman" Church established?

 

[MarysSon]

This is takling about the final judgement. This is not difficult.

Can you address points A and B??

a) This cannot be Heaven because the person will SUFFER ‐ and there is NO suffering in Heaven.
b) This cannot be Hell because the person will be SAVED ‐ and there is NO salvation in Hell.

What is happening there?

 

[MarysSon]

And umpteen dozen denoms, cults, & sects claim to be that one church. Well, it's sure not the RCC, which follows both some of the commands of God plus the traditions of men, despite Jesus' scathing admonition to some Pharisees for doing the exact same thing.

Mark 7: 1Then the Pharisees and some of the scribes came together to Him, having come from Jerusalem. 2 Now when they saw some of His disciples eat bread with defiled, that is, with unwashed hands, they found fault. 3 For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they wash their hands in a special way, holding the tradition of the elders. 4 When they come from the marketplace, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other things which they have received and hold, like the washing of cups, pitchers, copper vessels, and couches.5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, “Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands?”6 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:

‘This people honors Me with their lips,But their heart is far from Me.7 And in vain they worship Me,Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men—the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition.

And umpteen denoms cults and sects don't have the historical proof.
BIG difference.

Ummmmmmm, NOT sure why you posted this passage. It is referring to the JEWISH leaders - not Christ's Catholic Church.
By the way - when do YOU suppose the Catholic Church started if NOT 2000 years ago??

Historical documentation, please . . .

 

[JoeT]

Yes. But what you FAIL to understand is the Church is not an organization. It is the body of believers that follow Scripture.

The Church is not an organization? Really? Even in your group of like minded people is there no organization? Why does the same man stand up and preach to the same people each Sunday? Have you disagreed with your preacher? Did you standup with decorous speech to set him straighten him out about your faith? Why is your faith the not same as the preacher's, isn't one Christian faith as good as another?

Even if you can satisfy yourself with an answer, which I'm almost sure you'll avoid, why do you suppose Luke went to such extremes has to give Christ's heredity as being in the house of David, a potential king or son of David. King of what, an invisible Church? Why do you suppose they placed a placard on the cross, "King of the Jews", because His invisible kingdom was a threat to the Romans, or the Jews?

Why do you suppose Christ came to us, establish His Kingdom on earth and then say 'adios amigos, I'm off to better things' its a far better I leave you then you've ever been left before? Did Christ abandon you leaving only a metaphor, or a symbol?

He didn't abandon you, He leaves His Body, the Church, and the Paraclete, the Holy Spirit.

JoeT

 

[MarysSon]

far as that goes, we have some common beliefs with such cults as JW & LDS.

The probs we have with the RCC is not about common beliefs, but with the RCC's MAN-MADE false doctrines such as mariolatry, purgatory, office of pope with his Dagon-head mitres, creation of man-made saints, etc.

Oy . . .

Complete and total RUBBISH.
Time for a history lesson . . .

First of all - the Bishop’s miter didn’t develop into its present form until the late Middle Ages – which is LONG after all of the “Dagon worshippers” were all dead and gone. Before that, it was a shorter version.

Dagon worshippers also forbade the eating of fish, which is something the Catholic Church has NEVER done. In fact, we’ve been accused by you anti-Catholics for eating TOO MUCH fish during Lent and that the Church had a financial interest in the fish industry. Another asinine and unsubstantiated charge . . .

Your confusion stems from the fact that you are ignorant of the customs and practices of Early Christianity.

Next time you’re driving on the freeway, pay attention to some of the cars with the Christian “Fish” symbol on the back. This symbol is an ancient CHRISTIAN symbol for Christ called. “ICHTHUS”. The letters inside the fish are the Greek letters which are the initials of the words I (ēsous) Ch (ristos) th (eou) hy(ios) s (ōtēr) meaning “Jesus Christ Son of God Savior”.

The fact that some ancient pagan culture did something first doesn’t mean that it was “adopted” by a later culture. They just happen to use the same symbol for different things.

Case in point – the Protestant “altar call”. An altar is a place of sacrifice – and Protestants reject the idea of sacrificing anything to God on an altar. Are they “adopting” Catholic doctrine – or does it have a different meaning??

Another example is the wedding ring, which has roots in paganism. Were YOU parttaking in “pagan worship” when you slipped a ring on your wife’s finger??

So, the next time you feel the need to post something as unfounded as this ridiculous charge – do your homework . . .

 

[Reformed1689]

Never heard of the "Roman" Church.
I know the Catholic Church has been here since Christ and His Apostles built it 2000 years ago.

When was this "Roman" Church established?

Again, we need to distinguish the current Roman Catholic Church and their false teachings. So go away if you want to start on this diatribe again. It's not going to fly.

 

[Reformed1689]

The Church is not an organization? Really?

Yes, really.

Even in your group of like minded people is there no organization?

Yes, those are people who are a part of the church, but their group is not the church. The people are.

Even if you can satisfy yourself with an answer, which I'm almost sure you'll avoid, why do you suppose Luke went to such extremes has to give Christ's heredity as being in the house of David, a potential king or son of David.

To show that Christ fulfilled prophecy.

 

[Reformed1689]

a) This cannot be Heaven because the person will SUFFER ‐ and there is NO suffering in Heaven.

There is no suffering in heaven AFTER this moment. After THIS moment He wipes away every tear.

You guys are either all brainwashed or you are the same tribe over at Christianity board peddling this same nonsense and false teaching.

 

[Reformed1689]

And umpteen denoms cults and sects don't have the historical proof.

Neither does the church based in Rome.

 

[MarysSon]

There is no suffering in heaven AFTER this moment. After THIS moment He wipes away every tear.

You guys are either all brainwashed or you are the same tribe over at Christianity board peddling this same nonsense and false teaching.

Can you show me where the Bible says there is ANY suffering in Heaven??
Chapter and verse, please . . .

 

[MarysSon]

Neither does the church based in Rome.

Wanna bet??

Ignatius of Antioch, FIRST century Bishop and student of the Apostle John wrote this on the way to his martyrdom in Rome at the beginning of the 2nd century:

Ignatius of Antioch
Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the CATHOLIC CHURCH (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).

Funny - I don't see ONE reference to any Protestant denominations . . .

 

[MarysSon]

Again, we need to distinguish the current Roman Catholic Church and their false teachings. So go away if you want to start on this diatribe again. It's not going to fly.

There is only ONE Catholic Church.

If you're not a Catholic Christian, you're a Protestant Christian or you belong to one of the Orthodox Churches.
There is NO other kind of Christian.

 

[Reformed1689]

Can you show me where the Bible says there is ANY suffering in Heaven??
Chapter and verse, please . . .

First, you need to define suffering. In the passage you are talking about what is the suffering? It is the loss of works that were worthless.

Now, that being said, Revelation 21 is where it talks about no more pain and suffering in a place. God wipes away the tears. This means there must be tears to wipe away.