I'm not sure where works based salvation came in....but what I was saying GreekTim said better.
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The doctrine of the Trinity
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I'm not sure where works based salvation came in....but what I was saying GreekTim said better.
Cals and Arms agree on much more then what seperates us in the area of major doctrines though!
Doctrine of the Trinity is just that - doctrine. It is not plainly taught in scripture. If it were, everybody should agree. Does that mean it's not true? Not at all. Just that scripture doesnt plainly give us a creedal formula
If you want to go the "3 Persons" route, then it is of UTMOST importance to be ready to aswer.....what is a "person" ??
People use this creedal jargon without any thought whatsoever. Where does scripture use "3 Persons" to describe the essence of God? Just one verse, anybody?
Unfortunately, people agree with the doctrine first, then try to make scripture fit the doctrine. If you really adhere to what scripture says, you cannot contain it in a catchy little cliché
What does "3 Persons" mean? Here are a few options:
3 beings
3 spirits
3 personalities
3 manifestations
3 modes
Before you go down the road of regurgitating a doctrine, you should at least know what it is you're saying
Am I a Trinitarian? Nope. Not in the "3 Persons" kind of sense. Why? Because nobody will define "person" in such a way that doesn't conflict with scripture.
And if you're trying to teach someone else this "persons" doctrine, you owe it to that person to make it clear what you're saying. Don't leave the poor fella to his own imagination to fit it together.
If you believe God is 3 beings, then say so. If you believe He's 3 manifestations, then say so.
Eggs and water don't cut it in my mind, either. An egg can be split into parts, and water modes aren't all stable in the same parameters. And 3 beings = 3 Gods.
So what is a Person?
If you want to go the "3 Persons" route, then it is of UTMOST importance to be ready to aswer.....what is a "person" ??
People use this creedal jargon without any thought whatsoever. Where does scripture use "3 Persons" to describe the essence of God? Just one verse, anybody?
Unfortunately, people agree with the doctrine first, then try to make scripture fit the doctrine. If you really adhere to what scripture says, you cannot contain it in a catchy little cliché
What does "3 Persons" mean? Here are a few options:
3 beings
3 spirits
3 personalities
3 manifestations
3 modes
Before you go down the road of regurgitating a doctrine, you should at least know what it is you're saying
Am I a Trinitarian? Nope. Not in the "3 Persons" kind of sense. Why? Because nobody will define "person" in such a way that doesn't conflict with scripture.
And if you're trying to teach someone else this "persons" doctrine, you owe it to that person to make it clear what you're saying. Don't leave the poor fella to his own imagination to fit it together.
If you believe God is 3 beings, then say so. If you believe He's 3 manifestations, then say so.
Eggs and water don't cut it in my mind, either. An egg can be split into parts, and water modes aren't all stable in the same parameters. And 3 beings = 3 Gods.
So what is a Person?
The doctrine of the Trinity is plainly taught in scripture, it is a primary doctrine, and anything other than that is heresy.
Why don't you tell us your belief about the Father, Son, Holy Spirit and God.
As someone else said, each part is not an egg yet we know that the Father is fully God, Jesus is fully God and the Holy Spirit is fully God. I don't think I've heard of a good analogy ever - it's just not something that we have an example of in our nature.
Book, chapter, and verse, please?
Philippians 1:2
Titus 2:13
Acts 5:3–4
John 3:16
John 16:10
John 14:26
Acts 2:33
Mark 1:10–11
John 1:1
Matthew 3:17, 17:5
John 5:19, 11:41–42; 17:1ff
I could go on and on but I am sure you get the point.
Titus 2:13
Acts 5:3–4
John 3:16
John 16:10
John 14:26
Acts 2:33
Mark 1:10–11
John 1:1
Matthew 3:17, 17:5
John 5:19, 11:41–42; 17:1ff
I could go on and on but I am sure you get the point.
While it may not be perfect it is a good one and it paints a picture.
I do get the point. There isn't a plain teaching in scripture that God is "3 Persons". You start with a doctrine, reference one and two verses at a time to try to compile them into a cohesive, neatly packaged doctrine.
Care to define "Person" ???
What?????? You would question the doctrine of the trinity? Are you serious? Not even WinMan would do such a thing!
How about when Apostle John and paul call Jesus God, Jesus calls His father God, and peter calls the Holy Spirit God?
However YOU want to define it, there are 3 persons in the Bible who are called each one God, and there is only ONE God!
There should be NO poster who denies the trinity posting on this Board!
First, I have to ponder some difficulty with the "3 Persons" view. Not philosophical problems, because I really don't care if a view upsets my philosophy. If it's truth, truth must trump my understanding, or how I feel. And if truth is in conflict with what's always been promulgated, then truth must win there, too.
The first difgicilty is that it's worse than pulling teeth to try and pry a definiton out of people. It's a simple request, to simply define "person". Why should anyone be expected to give a nod to something, if nobody knows for sure what's being said? Define "person" so there's no ambiguity.
But I think most people don't want to be real clear, out of fear they'll be labeled a heretic. It's just more comfortable to just agree
But there are scriptural difficulties with 3 Persons existing eternally co-equal. Plain scriptural statements that put this doctrine in an impossible bind
Not denying the deity of Christ or the Holy Spirit, not trying to make scripture say something that conforms to Modalism or anything of the sort
That is not the point. When you have Jesus interacting with the Father you can see distinct and differing persons. They are their own entity, personality, and being. When you see Jesus interacting with the Holy Ghost you again see two distinct and differing persons.
Your standard appears to be that if you do not have scripture say "this is what a person is" then it is not clear on the issue. That could not be farther from the truth. The clarity on this doctrine comes from the many passages of scripture that shows each person of the Godhead interacting with each other. It comes from the many passages of scripture showing each person of the Godhead living and acting independently of each other.
So whatever your personal standard for what a person is or what is clear in scripture is not a common one and it is certainly not orthodox.
James you are not alone with your difficulties concerning the definition of the Trinity.
It took the Church Fathers almost 300 years to fully develop the doctrine.
Athanatius was the champion of that development.
Take a look at the Creed (I know Baptists have no creeds) which bears his name.
Every point has a scripture and believe me you can spend a life time studying the doctrine of the Trinity.
http://www.crcna.org/welcome/beliefs/creeds/athanasian-creed
granted the word "person" is difficult to define not because of fear but because it lends itself to a difficulty of definition.
Define love. It's difficult as well and one must observe look at what it effects and what affects it.
A person has emotion, intellect and will which communicates with like beings.
Each of those characteristics have had volumes written about them as they are related to theology and in particular, God Himself and we are created in His image (persona).
The word for person in trinitarianism has a root in the book of Hebrews
Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
person - hupostasis a very important word in the study of the Trinity.
The Trinity is unique, there is nothing/nobody like our God in the universe and nothing to which or to whom He can be compared.
You are a person, I am a person (mortal), each of the members of the Trinity is an eternal Omni-Everything person.
I believe it was John Owen who did a good job on the doctrine.
Take the time to study it. It will take a long time, as well it should.
You will find differences of opinions.
HankD
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John Piper has some good stuff on this subject:
"The personhood of each member of the Trinity means that each Person has a distinct center of consciousness. Thus, they relate to each other personally — the Father regards Himself as “I” while He regards the Son and Holy Spirit as “You.” Likewise the Son regards Himself as “I,” but the Father and the Holy Spirit as “You.”"
http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/what-is-the-doctrine-of-the-trinity
"The personhood of each member of the Trinity means that each Person has a distinct center of consciousness. Thus, they relate to each other personally — the Father regards Himself as “I” while He regards the Son and Holy Spirit as “You.” Likewise the Son regards Himself as “I,” but the Father and the Holy Spirit as “You.”"
http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/what-is-the-doctrine-of-the-trinity
From Got Questions:
"Person can be defined as “a center of self-consciousness.” A person has a mind, emotions, and a will, can communicate with others, and is capable of performing actions. When we speak of the concept of personhood as it relates to the Trinity, we are describing self-distinctions in God. All three Persons of the one triune God possess the complete attributes of deity. All three Persons are truly divine, yet eternally distinct from one another. The divine Persons can and do communicate with each other (John 17:1-26; Hebrews 1:8-9). Essentially, God has three centers of self-consciousness. Yet this one Being (the triune God of Scripture) possesses one indivisible essence. There is only one Being that is God, and this one Being is tri-personal, with each of the three Persons having full possession of the divine nature.
Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/Tritheism-Trinity.html#ixzz3JZXmHzCN"
"Person can be defined as “a center of self-consciousness.” A person has a mind, emotions, and a will, can communicate with others, and is capable of performing actions. When we speak of the concept of personhood as it relates to the Trinity, we are describing self-distinctions in God. All three Persons of the one triune God possess the complete attributes of deity. All three Persons are truly divine, yet eternally distinct from one another. The divine Persons can and do communicate with each other (John 17:1-26; Hebrews 1:8-9). Essentially, God has three centers of self-consciousness. Yet this one Being (the triune God of Scripture) possesses one indivisible essence. There is only one Being that is God, and this one Being is tri-personal, with each of the three Persons having full possession of the divine nature.
Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/Tritheism-Trinity.html#ixzz3JZXmHzCN"
It is one thing not to understand it and quite another thing to deny it. It seems to me that you are saying you don't understand it.
The Scriptures do provide plenty, in fact overwhelming evidence of the Triune nature of God. It does grammatically. It does so by attributing the same non-communicable attributes that make God to be God equally to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit. It does so by direct address or explicitly calling the Son God and the Holy Spirit God rather than referring to al Three as "god's". It does so by claiming that the "Godhead" is revealed in creation and it is overwhelming revealed in Creation as this Creation is a Triunity in many different ways.
If we want to talk about "persons" we are obviously speaking of three distinct centers of consciousness that are co-eternal, co-equal and yet one is not the other and all three claim all attributes that belong to "one God."
The Scriptures does not teach "three beings" or "three gods" but one God who consists of three distinctions that cannot be confused with each other but are co-equal, co-eternal but stand in an orderly relationship to each other from Father to Son to Spirit in regard to position or rank. The very statement that God "is love" requires a trinity (1) A lover, (2) A beloved; (3) A spirit of love. The Biblical evidence is overwhelming and yet no human being is able to explain it fully.
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