The doctrine of the Trinity

[convicted1]

I agree with you, and I agree with the Johannine comma.

The three are One. I never said I deny the tri-unity of God.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbsup::thumbs:

 

[evangelist6589]

Well I wrote my letter and took some time on it and also edited it. I said I would follow up with a phone call and this pastor welcomed me the first time we spoke. People can pray he will hear the letter. I also used this illustration but at a much smaller size that is. No idea how to make the image smaller on this site, but MS Word did the job!

 

[The Biblicist]

Another difficulty for the "3 co-equal" doctrine is in John 6:57 "Just as the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever eats Me will live because of Me."

So how is it that Jesus is God, and was with God, and is immortal, yet it is the Father alone who has immortality?

Jesus came forth FROM God (John 16:27-28)


Jesus is the WORD of God (Rev 19:13). And what does scripture say about the Word of God?

“I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance." (Isaiah 45:23)

Sounds very similar to what Paul wrote in Philippians 2:10-11 "so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father"

Also consider Isaiah 55:11 "So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it."

And Jesus, the Word of God, declared that He was sent by the Father (John 5:23, 36, 37, 6:44, 57, 8:16, 18, 42, 10:36, 12:49, 17:21, 25, 20:21)

This one is also very interesting - "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me." (John 14:24)

We also see in Hebrews 11:3 "By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible"

And God said 'Let there be light'

Look at Psalm 33:

6 By the word of the Lord the heavens were made,
And by the breath of His mouth all their host.
7 He gathers the waters of the sea together as a heap;
He lays up the deeps in storehouses.
8 Let all the earth fear the Lord;
Let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of Him.
9 For He spoke, and it was done;
He commanded, and it stood fast


Jesus is the very Word of God, who proceeds FROM the Father. By whom the heavens were made. Everything visible and invisible (John 1:1-4, Colossians 1:15-17)


continued....

Again, "Jesus Christ" is the designation for the Incarnate Son of God. He speaks as a man in some contexts and he speaks as God in some contexts without contradiction because he is both. As a man, he said, "I go to your God and my God." As a man he lived dependently upon the Father. As a man he grew in wisdom and knowledge. As a man he grew weary and tired.

In John 6 the contextual subject is partaking of Christ by faith for eternal life as one would partake of food (Jn. 6:35; 47; 67-69) for physical life. Partaking of food is the metaphor being used. As a man "I live because of the Father" but as God life dwelt within him as well (Jn. 1:4). As God "ye live because of me" due to partaking of me by faith.

In the Godhead their is a progression from the Father to the Son to the Spirit and there is both rank and order between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

The explanation of the incarnation poses as many problems as does an explanation of the Trinity. Many of these problems can be resolved by correctly identifying from what perspective Jesus Christ speaks. Is he speaking from His perspective as man or as God.

 

[JamesL]

Again, "Jesus Christ" is the designation for the Incarnate Son of God. He speaks as a man in some contexts and he speaks as God in some contexts without contradiction because he is both. As a man, he said, "I go to your God and my God." As a man he lived dependently upon the Father. As a man he grew in wisdom and knowledge. As a man he grew weary and tired.

In John 6 the contextual subject is partaking of Christ by faith for eternal life as one would partake of food (Jn. 6:35; 47; 67-69) for physical life. Partaking of food is the metaphor being used. As a man "I live because of the Father" but as God life dwelt within him as well (Jn. 1:4). As God "ye live because of me" due to partaking of me by faith.

In the Godhead their is a progression from the Father to the Son to the Spirit and there is both rank and order between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

The explanation of the incarnation poses as many problems as does an explanation of the Trinity. Many of these problems can be resolved by correctly identifying from what perspective Jesus Christ speaks. Is he speaking from His perspective as man or as God.

As a man? As God?

Oh, right. Another doctrine - hypostatic union. Leads to a lot of "in His humanity" statements. Or "in His divinity". But again, where does scripture make such statements?

Scripture makes a very plain, clear statement that the Father alone possesses immortality, as I mentioned previously. That is in harmony with Jesus' own assertion that the Father has granted Him to have life within Himself.

There's no need for trying to shift back and forth through a philosophical position that is at odds with scripture

And there shouldn't have to be a string of 6 or 8 philosophical doctrines to relieve tension. Just keep making up another doctrine every time somebody thinks up another difficulty.

That's what the Roman Catholic church is famous for. We should do better than that.


I will try to continue tonight. Gotta get to work now

 

[The Biblicist]

As a man? As God?

Oh, right. Another doctrine - hypostatic union. Leads to a lot of "in His humanity" statements. Or "in His divinity". But again, where does scripture make such statements?

The scripture is perfectly clear on this subject in many places. For example John 1:1 with John 1:14,18 is indisputably clear on this subject that he is both God and man and that the divine preexistent uncreated Word TABERNACLES in humanity through virgin birth.

John 1:4 makes it perfectly clear that the uncreated eternal Word has life in Himself, but obviously the humanity he takes upon does not have that because it had to be born into existence through virgin birth.

What is it you don't understand about these verses? It appears you are a denier of the hypostatic union as you have the tone of a scoffer instead of merely an investigator and questioner? Is that true?

 

[JonC]

As a man? As God?

Oh, right. Another doctrine - hypostatic union. Leads to a lot of "in His humanity" statements. Or "in His divinity". But again, where does scripture make such statements?

Scripture makes a very plain, clear statement that the Father alone possesses immortality, as I mentioned previously. That is in harmony with Jesus' own assertion that the Father has granted Him to have life within Himself.

JamesL, I'm sure that you've already worked through what I am going to suggest, but I'll suggest it anyway. Perhaps those verses do not plainly deny the eternity of Jesus, but instead shift a focus to the submissiveness of the Son to the Father. There is a sense where Jesus did not exist, as a man, eternally. But there is no sense that He did not exist eternally. Either way, Biblicists is right. To deny the Trinity or the hypostatic union (hypostatic, BTW, deals with the issue you had with the term "person" as well) is to deny Scripture.

 

[The Biblicist]

The scripture is perfectly clear on this subject in many places. For example John 1:1 with John 1:14,18 is indisputably clear on this subject that he is both God and man and that the divine preexistent uncreated Word TABERNACLES in humanity through virgin birth.

John 1:4 makes it perfectly clear that the uncreated eternal Word has life in Himself, but obviously the humanity he takes upon does not have that because it had to be born into existence through virgin birth.

What is it you don't understand about these verses? It appears you are a denier of the hypostatic union as you have the tone of a scoffer instead of merely an investigator and questioner? Is that true?

John 1:1 provides us three phrases to prove the absolute deity of Christ as the uncreated Word. In all three phrases the imperfect tense "hen" is used that denotes continuity in past time without reference to either a beginning or ending point. In contrast, the humanity of Christ in verse 14 uses the Aorist tense verb "erchomai" which means "became" or something previously non-existent coming into existence.

The first phrase declares the eternal existence (immortality) as the uncreated "Word" prior to the "beginning" of any created thing (vv. 2-3). In regard to His eternal being "In the beginning hen (was existing) the Word." Time is a measuring ruler for anything created (vv. 2-3). Time begins with what is created as time cannot measure eternity. John is clearly declaring His IMMORTALITY or ETERNAL EXISTENCE as UNCREATED!

Life and death are two opposing forms of EXISTENCE. The Word existed ETERNALLY and that is IMMORTALITY - ceaseless existence in union with God. The second phrase declares this eternal existence is in union with "God" thus denying that "the Word" is all that God is. The preposition "meta" literally means "face to face" and conveys EQUALITY. John is clearly declaring that the ETERNAL or IMMORTAL uncreated Word is not all of what God is, but is equal to what God is. There is more to God than The Word but the Word is equal to God. Thus the third phrase declares The Word is "God".

John 1:4 declares this eternal uncreated Word who is immortal or uncreated existence abides in equal union with God and This God IS life and is the Light of men.

Now there is a progression within the Godhead as well as order of authority as the Father sends the Son and the Son sends the Spirit. The Father is the "head" of the Son (1 Cor. 11:3) as the man is "head" of the woman. However, headship has nothing to do with nature as the woman is equally human as the man regardless if he is her metaphorical "head" or not, just as the Son is equally God as the Father. Thus life or immortality is in eternal progression from the Father to the Son to the Spirit but both the Son and Spirit were never less than immortal uncreated eternal in existence.

Likewise "God is love" and there is an eternal progressive of love in the Godhead. There is the lover (The Father) and the beloved (the Son) and the spirit of love (The Holy Spirit) but at no point in the existence of God does this love have a beginning or ending but is eternal. However, there is a progression within the Godhead.

 

[annsni]

Scripture makes a very plain, clear statement that the Father alone possesses immortality, as I mentioned previously.

So when will Jesus die?

 

[The Biblicist]

So when will Jesus die?

He may argue that Jesus as any other man is given eternal life and wont die spiritually but that does not make him immortal but did die on the cross.

I think the better question might be, so when does the "pre-existent Word" of John 1:1 die since he existed preivous to all created things (Jn. 1:1a, 2-3) and then "tabernacled" in a human nature (Jn. 1:14,18)? When did "the Word" ever cease to exist or ever will cease to exist?

 

[Greektim]

While it may not be perfect it is a good one and it paints a picture.

It is not a good one. It gives a flawed view. That's not good.

 

[Greektim]

One Creation but in Trinity - space, time and matter. Three different aspects but Take one aspect away and this present creation ceases to exist as it is.

Matter = energy, motion and phenomena. Three different aspects but Take one away and Matter ceases to exist

Time = past, present and future. Three different aspects but remove one and time ceases to exist.

Space = length, breadth and depth. Three different aspects but remove one and space ceases to exist.

The Godhead is revealed in Creation - Romans 1:20.

Again this is flawed because it is parts of the whole. Each person is not a part of God. They are wholly and fully God in themselves.

And I don't believe the Trinity is revealed in nature. That is why every illustration breaks down. Rom. 1:20 doesn't say that God's triune nature was revealed in the natural world he created. Only his "is eternal power and divine nature" were revealed in nature. His godness basically.

 

[The Biblicist]

Again this is flawed because it is parts of the whole. Each person is not a part of God. They are wholly and fully God in themselves.

And I don't believe the Trinity is revealed in nature. That is why every illustration breaks down. Rom. 1:20 doesn't say that God's triune nature was revealed in the natural world he created. Only his "is eternal power and divine nature" were revealed in nature. His godness basically.

No, it is not flawed for the simple reason the whole ceases to exist without any given part and the part ceases to exist without the whole. In that respect it is a perfect analogy or illustration of the Trinity.

For example, remove any single part that makes up matter and matter ceases to exist. however, the existence of any single part demands the existence of the whole.

For example, remove any single part from time and time ceases to exist. Time flows from the future and therefore to deny one aspect is to deny the whole and to demand the whole is to demand each aspect.

For example, remove any single part from space and space ceases to exist.

I illustrate this by taking a piece of chalk and drawing a line on the chalk board and then show its three dimensional existence by the length of line, the breadth of the line and the thickness of the line and then I ask a child to come up and remove only one aspect without removing any other aspect or to produce only one aspect without producing all three aspects simeltaneously. It can't be done, the whole is dependent on the part and the part on the whole.

Likewise, the Trinity is One but yet three and you cannot deny any of the three without denying the whole (from a Biblical perspective), just as you cannot deny the whole without denying any aspect of the three.

So it is not flawed at all but a perfect analogy and creation does reveal the Trinity in many many other ways other than these three basic elements of the one creation.

 

[HankD]

Again this is flawed because it is parts of the whole. Each person is not a part of God. They are wholly and fully God in themselves.

And I don't believe the Trinity is revealed in nature. That is why every illustration breaks down. Rom. 1:20 doesn't say that God's triune nature was revealed in the natural world he created. Only his "is eternal power and divine nature" were revealed in nature. His godness basically.

So there we have it at the BB, a similar discussion, debate , argument which lasted about 300 years in the passage of time.

When it ended the Nicene Creed (long form) rose to the Gold Standard and the source of most of trinitarian christendom's definition of the Holy Trinity probably as well as it can be expressed in human language.

http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/creeds/nicene.htm

HankD

 

[OldRegular]

Another difficulty for the "3 co-equal" doctrine is in John 6:57 "Just as the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever eats Me will live because of Me."

So how is it that Jesus is God, and was with God, and is immortal, yet it is the Father alone who has immortality?

You are simply ignoring Scripture. First the man Jesus Christ had two natures, human and divine. The human nature of Jesus Christ was not immortal, if by immortal you mean eternal. It had a beginning in Mary's womb. The divine nature of Jesus Christ was eternal as clearly shown in the following Scripture.

John 1:1-3
1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2. The same was in the beginning with God.
3. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Read further and you will see that the WORD took upon Himself the nature of man! I would also note that you need to discern between those things Jesus Christ states regarding His human nature and His Divine nature. For example Jesus Christ tells the Jews:

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Jesus Christ was speaking of His Divine nature preceding Abraham. Notice also He applies the Divine "I AM", the Name of God, to Himself.

 

[OldRegular]

Again this is flawed because it is parts of the whole. Each person is not a part of God. They are wholly and fully God in themselves.

You are correct!

The Trinity
by Matt Slick

God is a trinity of persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Father is not the same person as the Son; the Son is not the same person as the Holy Spirit; and the Holy Spirit is not the same person as the Father. They are not three gods and not three beings. They are three distinct persons; yet, they are all the one God. Each has a will, can speak, can love, etc. These are demonstrations of personhood. They are in absolute perfect harmony consisting of one substance. They are coeternal, coequal, and copowerful. If any one of the three were removed, there would be no God.

From: http://carm.org/trinity

 

[The Biblicist]

You are correct!

You and Greektime are simply wrong. Creation does reveal the Godhead in a perfect analogy. Not in regard to persons but in regard to the nature of a trinity.

There is one universe/creation made up of space, matter and time - it is a Triunity as the whole cannot exist without one part and one part cannot exist without the whole as it is created. Yet space is not matter or time or vice versa.

Space, matter and time are trinities.

Space is length, breadth and depth. Try drawing a line on a chalk board and attempt to erase just one. Can't be done. Try to draw just one without the other two. Can't be done. Yet length is never breadth or depth or vice versa.

Matter is engery, motion and phenomena. Eliminate one and you eliminate the whole, and one cannot exist without the whole existing. Yet energy is not motion or phenomena or vice versa.

Time is future, present and past. Time flows from the future where one exists all exist and where one ceases to exist all cease to exist. Because all of time was once future and all of time was once present and all of time was once past. For example, time now was something in the time future but no longer in time future as it is time now, however, now has passed is no longer now but time past. Yet future is never past or present and vice versa.

 

[OldRegular]

Now as to Scripture that proves the Trinity:

Deuteronomy 6:4. Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

The above Scripture shows that there is only one God!

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Genesis 1:26. And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

The above Scripture shows God speaking of Himself as more than one!

The above Scripture shows us that if man is a person then God is a person.

*******************

Genesis 1:1, 2
1. In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

The above Scripture indicates the identity of two persons in the being of God! More about the Spirit of God later.

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John 1:1-3
1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2. The same was in the beginning with God.
3. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

The above Scripture shows that there are definitely three persons in the being of God.

*********************************

John 1:14. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The above Scripture shows us the the Word is the Incarnate God, Jesus Christ.

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John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

In the above Scripture we see the God the WORD indicating His union with God the Father.

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John 14:16. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:26. But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Luke 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

The above Scripture show that the believer is indwell with the Comforter, the Holy Spirit.

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Hebrews 9: 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

The above Scripture shows the eternal nature of the Holy Spirit!

***************************************************************

Recapitulating we have:

Deuteronomy 6:4. Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Genesis 1:26. And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

John 1:1-3
1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2. The same was in the beginning with God.
3. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Hebrews 9: 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

One GOD in Three Persons: God the Father, God the Word, God the Holy Spirit, all Eternal, all God, Blessed Trinity!

 

[The Biblicist]

You and Greektime are simply wrong. Creation does reveal the Godhead in a perfect analogy. Not in regard to persons but in regard to the nature of a trinity.

There is one universe/creation made up of space, matter and time - it is a Triunity as the whole cannot exist without one part and one part cannot exist without the whole as it is created. Yet space is not matter or time or vice versa.

Space, matter and time are trinities.

Space is length, breadth and depth. Try drawing a line on a chalk board and attempt to erase just one. Can't be done. Try to draw just one without the other two. Can't be done. Yet length is never breadth or depth or vice versa.

Matter is engery, motion and phenomena. Eliminate one and you eliminate the whole, and one cannot exist without the whole existing. Yet energy is not motion or phenomena or vice versa.

Time is future, present and past. Time flows from the future where one exists all exist and where one ceases to exist all cease to exist. Because all of time was once future and all of time was once present and all of time was once past. For example, time now was something in the time future but no longer in time future as it is time now, however, now has passed is no longer now but time past. Yet future is never past or present and vice versa.

There are many more examples of a perfect trinity in nature. Not in regard to persons but in regard to the nature of a trinity.

For example the triangle is a perfect example of a trinity. It is three but yet one. Remove one point and the trinity ceases to exist. However, the whole demands the existence of each point. This is a perfect analogy of the nature of a trinity.

 

[OldRegular]

You and Greektime are simply wrong. Creation does reveal the Godhead in a perfect analogy. Not in regard to persons but in regard to the nature of a trinity.

You jumped the GUN. Reread my response to Greektim!

 

[OldRegular]

There is one universe/creation made up of space, matter and time - it is a Triunity as the whole cannot exist without one part and one part cannot exist without the whole as it is created. Yet space is not matter or time or vice versa.

Space, matter and time are trinities.

Space is length, breadth and depth. Try drawing a line on a chalk board and attempt to erase just one. Can't be done. Try to draw just one without the other two. Can't be done. Yet length is never breadth or depth or vice versa.

Matter is engery, motion and phenomena. Eliminate one and you eliminate the whole, and one cannot exist without the whole existing. Yet energy is not motion or phenomena or vice versa.

Time is future, present and past. Time flows from the future where one exists all exist and where one ceases to exist all cease to exist. Because all of time was once future and all of time was once present and all of time was once past. For example, time now was something in the time future but no longer in time future as it is time now, however, now has passed is no longer now but time past. Yet future is never past or present and vice versa.

I believe you are pushing the idea that nature demonstrates the Trinity to the extreme. I doubt that you know enough about space, matter, or time to draw the conclusions you have!