OldRegular
Well-Known Member
You are acting like a spoiled child!
You are acting like a spoiled and petted child!
Pathetic! Now you are having a temper tantrum.
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The doctrine of the Trinity
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Pathetic! Now you are having a temper tantrum.
There are some theologians that believe the names "father" and "Son" and "holy Spirit" are anthropormorhic expressions confined to the covenant of redemption and for the purpose to express the relationship and work of redemption in terms of our existence. Rather than expressions of the essential nature of God.
What is pathetic and childlike is your attempts to take the readers away from the text and what it says "CLEARLY SEEN" and confuse and divide by things that have no bearing on the clear meaning of the text. The text is not dealing with mathematic theories or speculative theories but with what is "CLEARLY SEEN" in creation and can be clearly perceived by man to understand the nature of God.
If you think that a "line" drawn on a chalk board is not a "line" you need to look in the mirror before condemning others as childish. If chalk on a board is not taking up space by its length, width and depth and if that is not three dimensional in your estimation you need to go back to school and learn the basics that little children understand in grade school.
More importantly, the OP was a request to provide for a specific need. Romans 1:20 does not refer to unseen mathematic equations or variant speculative theories but things "CLEARLY SEEN" in creation. The illustrations I provided are simple and clearly understood and seen and are some of the best examples provided by creation of the trinity principle. You are clearly not interested in truth but in simply causing division, chaos and confusion.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
You should read HankD's definition before you proceed.
Hank presents the commonly accepted definition of matter.
Rocks are uncommon in the area where I live unless one wants to call a grain of sand a "very, very small rock"! However, I do have one marking the corner of my property. I wou;d say it weighs about 100 pounds. It has set there in one place for ~47 years. It is matter because, as Hank states, it has mass and occupies space. [Actually if you could see that rock on an atomic scale you would see that there is very little matter but mostly space occupying the volume of air the rock displaces.]
However, that rock has not moved in that time of ~47 years though I am sure that electrons still orbit the nucleus of the atom. I don't know what the other atomic particles are doing. So that mass which occupies space does not have motion.
I must assume it has no "engery", either that or it is totally lethargic since it has not moved. It would have some potential energy if I rolled it up the hill so it could roll down if needed, converting the potential "engery" to kinetic "engery". Or I could pick it up and drop it on my foot and feel all that potential "engery" converted to kinetic "engery", but it is too heavy.
Now I have seen that rock routinely for ~47 years, more in the summer when I cut the grass, but as for it having "phenomena" I really haven't noticed any. But then!
The basic building blocks of creation are examples of the trinity principle.
1. Time is divided into three aspects - future, present and past - not four or five or two. Yet all three are TIME singular. In our present system if one never came into existence none would come into existence and if one does come into existence all come into existence and yet future is not present or past or vice versa.
2. Matter in this present creation is made up of three basic aspects - energy, motion and phenomena - not four, or five or two. Yet all three are essential for the existence of matter. Remove one and all are removed, create one and all are created in regard to this present creation.
3. Space that exists in this creation is occupied by mass which is at minimum three dimensional in character - length, width and depth.
There can be no matter without space, as it must have space to exist. There can be no matter without time, because matter is not eternal.
There can be no time without space and matter because time measures created things and both space and matter in this creation are created things.
There can be no space without time because space in this creation is not eternal but measured by time. There can be no space without matter as matter is what occupies space in this creation.
The illustration of a chalk line on chalk board is three-dimensional in the sense that width, depth and length are three dimensions in space that take up space.
1. Time is divided into three aspects - future, present and past - not four or five or two. Yet all three are TIME singular. In our present system if one never came into existence none would come into existence and if one does come into existence all come into existence and yet future is not present or past or vice versa.
2. Matter in this present creation is made up of three basic aspects - energy, motion and phenomena - not four, or five or two. Yet all three are essential for the existence of matter. Remove one and all are removed, create one and all are created in regard to this present creation.
3. Space that exists in this creation is occupied by mass which is at minimum three dimensional in character - length, width and depth.
There can be no matter without space, as it must have space to exist. There can be no matter without time, because matter is not eternal.
There can be no time without space and matter because time measures created things and both space and matter in this creation are created things.
There can be no space without time because space in this creation is not eternal but measured by time. There can be no space without matter as matter is what occupies space in this creation.
The illustration of a chalk line on chalk board is three-dimensional in the sense that width, depth and length are three dimensions in space that take up space.
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I responded to the OP! However, you have posted absolutely nothing that shows that the Triune Nature of God is demonstrated in Romans 1:20 by your juvenile remarks about time, space, and matter! As I said earlier you are in over your head so stop digging!
Whether it is a rock or it is you, the same substance - billions of atoms which consists of energy and motion are manifested in a special phenomena and that is what the unaided physical eye sees. Remove any aspect of energy, motion or phenomena the rock and you cease to exist.
Anyone can look through a telescope and see "space" which is not merely what mass occupies but provides more area than what is occupied by mass. Again, that is what is CLEARLY SEEN through a telescope or microscope.
It is in constant motion all 47 years but you have not noticed it. Your eyes are simply not sufficiently powerful enough to see it is in motion, or to see the energy as you only see the phenomena manifested to your eye.
That is simply not true. It may be true to your physical eye but it is certainly not scientifically true when a microscope aids the human eye.
Again, you are confusing visible phenomena to the unaided physical eye with reality.
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If you are not well educated suffienitly or have sufficient common sense to see that creation does in fact provide many obvious examples of the trinity principle than that is your problem not mine.
Time is an essential element of creation that all human beings perceive in a three distinct aspects but yet singular "time."
Matter is an essential element of creation and human beings from a very early time perceived it is made up of Atoms composed of energy and motion which take different visible phenomena to the unaided human eye.
Space is something obvious to all humans and at minimum has three dimensions for the mass that occupies it.
The simple illustration of a chalk line on a black board is a very simple and clearly seen illustration of the Triune principle that any child can easily see and grasp.
Such illustrations are found throughout this creation and the very laws it operates by unless you are blinded by some delusional thinking.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I am sufficiently educated and have enough common sense not to hand out a bunch of "bull" about the Triune nature of God being taught as you claim. Your effort reminds me of a sermon in which the preacher tried to say the earth had four bulges because Scripture mentions the four corners of the earth.
You have posted absolutely nothing that shows that the Triune Nature of God is demonstrated in Romans 1:20 by your juvenile remarks about time, space, and matter! As I said earlier you are in over your head so stop digging!
Lots of blather but no critical response to disprove anything I have said. I will let the reader determine who is over their head.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Quantum faith made a critical comment on your concept of 3 dimensional space and you ignored him.
It is pointless to make a critical response to one who believes matter is energy, motion and phenomena. Unless that is a figment of your imagination you need at least a source because I suspect it is new to everyone on this Forum!
Do you believe the Christ to be, anthropormorhic?
Or was the Word morpe of God and self emptied, as the morpe of the servant of God, man?
http://www.icr.org/first-cause
http://www.hissheep.org/messages/secrets_of_the_universe.html
Here are some scientists and theologians you can call stupid and dummies.
"In the beginning (time) God created the heavens (space) and the earth (Matter)" - Genesis 1:1
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: - Rom. 1:20
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No! He is Jesus Christ born of the virgin Mary, and the incarnation of the Second Person of the Godhead.
Yes, the Word is in the form of God because He is God and when he incarnated he did not give up being God but simply emptied himself of the EXTERNAL GLORY of God.
convicted1
Guest
Would you please expound on what you mean when you said "Christ emptied Himself of His external glory of God?"
I've a Dake's Annotated study bible, and he used the term "emptied Himself". I am not Dake-ite, just have his study bible, and I am not sure I can go along with this, as to how I understand it. But please expound. Thanks.
Christ speaks of "the glory" he had with the Father before coming to earth as being the same "glory" of the Father:
Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Christ speaks of returning to the Father to share that same glory and desiring that his disciples shall SEE that glory:
Joh 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
He speaks of coming again in that visible manifest glory:
Lu 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
There are moments in his incarnated state that this glory is revealed in LIMITED form to some but for the most part it is HIDDEN behind the veil of His human nature.
Joh 11:40 Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?
What is hidden from man by the veil of his humanity is "the glory of God". However, at times when the power of God is manifested by his works the glory of God is manifested in a LIMITED fashion. However, prior to His incarnation nothing veiled it and after His ascension nothing veils it and at his return nothing shall veil it.
In the incarnation Christ "emptied himself" of that manifest glory, as no unglorified man could look directly upon the "glory of God" and live.
quantumfaith
Active Member
Wisdom, thank you Convicted for expressing such a simple and obvious truth.
Some things are so easy to understand that only educated idiots fail to grasp them.
1. Time is one but yet three - past, present, future
2. Matter is one but yet three - energy, motion, phenomena
3. Space is one but yet three - length, breadth, depth
4. A triangle is one but yet three
5. An atom is one but yet three - electron, proton, nucleus
6. The Sun is one yet three - energy, heat, light
7. Man is one yet three - spirit, soul, body
There are some less perfect illustrations or expressions of trinity in nature such as water is one but manifest in three forms (vapor, liquid, solid) as well as literally scores of other expressions of trinities in creation that can be clearly seen.
OF COURSE NONE OF THESE TRINITARIAN MODELS ARE PERFECT ILLUSTRATIONS or PERFECT LIKENESSES OF THE TRINITY as they are materialistic in nature and God is one of a kind, BUT THEY ARE SUFFICIENT MODELS TO REVEAL THE TRIUNE NATURE OF THE CREATOR THAT CAN BE "CLEARLY SEEN" IN NATURE - Rom. 1:20
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convicted1
Guest
You're waaaaay too kind, Brother Dave. :love2:
Time, Space, and Matter
Evidence for Creation › Evidence for God › The Triune Universe» Next
There is an immeasurably and unimaginably huge universe out there (even though the most important part of it appears to be here). The physical universe is "temporal"—its physical characteristics are defined qualitatively and quantitatively in and by time, space, and mass/energy (usually abbreviated as just "matter").
Any effort to determine the cause of the universe is purely hypothetical. No human was there to observe the processes, so any attempt to understand events of pre-history (especially original events) must, therefore, be based on "belief systems," or presuppositions. While the theories and ideas may be many, the presuppositions can only be of two sorts: 1) there is an infinite series of causes, going back into infinite time, with no ultimate Cause; or 2) there exists an uncaused First Cause that was "outside" or transcendent to the universe.
Many scientists today conduct their research based on their presupposition or belief that nothing exists beyond the natural world—that which can be seen around us—and thus they do not accept that any ultimate Cause exists.
Scientists at ICR hold to the presupposition that the "uncaused First Cause" is the Creator who exists outside of the physical creation He made. Time is not eternal, but created. To ask what happened in time before time was created is to create a false paradox without meaning. There was no "before" prior to the creation of the triune universe of time, space, and mass/energy.
Yet even more amazing (and the universe is amazing) is the historic fact that the Creator-God, after purposefully creating the time-space-matter universe, chose to enter it in the God-human person of Jesus Christ—for the sole purpose of providing a means by which humanity could have a personal relationship with the Creator.
"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth” (John 1:14). - http://www.icr.org/first-cause
Is Dr. Morris an uneducated man in science and way over his head??? Let the armchair scientists on this forum ridicule his credentials - and make sure you read all that he has to say before blathering as there is more to come.
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