The doctrine of the Trinity

[OldRegular]

The first thing God spoke into existence was light [Genesis 1:3] which is energy. I have often thought that all matter [mass occupying space] was then created from that light.

The 1st Law of Thermodynamics once said that energy can neither be created or destroyed or the energy of the universe is constant. With the advent of certain discoveries in the last century or so {fission, fusion,} that law is sometimes stated that the total energy, mass of the universe is constant.

 

[quantumfaith]

The first thing God spoke into existence was light [Genesis 1:3] which is energy. I have often thought that all matter [mass occupying space] was then created from that light.

The 1st Law of Thermodynamics once said that energy can neither be created or destroyed or the energy of the universe is constant. With the advent of certain discoveries in the last century or so {fission, fusion,} that law is sometimes stated that the total energy, mass of the universe is constant.

OR,

I know you and I are not on the same page....but I see in that statement of Genesis "and God said let there be light"...to be the original Big Bang event. That instantaneous creation of the beginning kernel of the universe from nothing (ex nihlio).

 

[OldRegular]

OR,

I know you and I are not on the same page....but I see in that statement of Genesis "and God said let there be light"...to be the original Big Bang event. That instantaneous creation of the beginning kernel of the universe from nothing (ex nihlio).

The more the Big Bang is studied the more problems are identified. I read some stuff and if I were younger and better in math I would read more. However, nothing has impressed me as much as and God said let there be light. I recall years ago that Nobel winner in physics Charles Townes a SC native and Furman graduate was asked about his views on creation. He quoted the above Scripture.

QF we are not on the same page on a lot of things but we are on the same page that really counts!

 

[quantumfaith]

The more the Big Bang is studied the more problems are identified. I read some stuff and if I were younger and better in math I would read more. However, nothing has impressed me as much as and God said let there be light. I recall years ago that Nobel winner in physics Charles Townes a SC native and Furman graduate was asked about his views on creation. He quoted the above Scripture.

QF we are not on the same page on a lot of things but we are on the same page that really counts!

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[convicted1]

The more the Big Bang is studied the more problems are identified. I read some stuff and if I were younger and better in math I would read more. However, nothing has impressed me as much as and God said let there be light. I recall years ago that Nobel winner in physics Charles Townes a SC native and Furman graduate was asked about his views on creation. He quoted the above Scripture.

QF we are not on the same page on a lot of things but we are on the same page that really counts!

I'll join Brother QF....

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


Though mine's prettier...I gave you four 'thumbsup' and he only gave you three plain ole 'thumbs'...LOL...J/K....

 

[quantumfaith]

The first thing God spoke into existence was light [Genesis 1:3] which is energy. I have often thought that all matter [mass occupying space] was then created from that light.

The 1st Law of Thermodynamics once said that energy can neither be created or destroyed or the energy of the universe is constant. With the advent of certain discoveries in the last century or so {fission, fusion,} that law is sometimes stated that the total energy, mass of the universe is constant.

OR, it just occurred to me. Was it not that the first created action of God "the heavens and the earth"?

Are you making for some reason the distinction that "spoke" was not mentioned in this creative act?

 

[OldRegular]

OR, it just occurred to me. Was it not that the first created action of God "the heavens and the earth"?

Are you making for some reason the distinction that "spoke" was not mentioned in this creative act?

I considered that question/problem when I first began to believe that light was the first thing created by God. The Scripture reads:

Genesis 1:1-3
1. In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

I believe the above can be understood as follows:

Genesis 1:1 is simply a statement that creation "ex nihlio" is an action of God.

Genesis 1:2 simply tells us the state of the earth absent the creative activity of God. Could this simply mean that before God created light the earth did not exist. Verse 2 does seem to indicate that space may have existed before light but I am not sure. Certainly before light there seems to be darkness and something called "the deep" and "the face of the waters".

If these three verses are intended to be a chronology of God's creative activity then He would have created darkness prior to light but that seems to contradict what Scripture tells us about God. Of course verse 2 may simply tells us that nothing existed prior to the creation of light.

I simply believe that Verse 3 tells us much about the creative activity of God.

 

[quantumfaith]

I considered that question/problem when I first began to believe that light was the first thing created by God. The Scripture reads:

Genesis 1:1-3
1. In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

I believe the above can be understood as follows:

Genesis 1:1 is simply a statement that creation "ex nihlio" is an action of God.

Genesis 1:2 simply tells us the state of the earth absent the creative activity of God. Could this simply mean that before God created light the earth did not exist. Verse 2 does seem to indicate that space may have existed before light but I am not sure. Certainly before light there seems to be darkness and something called "the deep" and "the face of the waters".

If these three verses are intended to be a chronology of God's creative activity then He would have created darkness prior to light but that seems to contradict what Scripture tells us about God. Of course verse 2 may simply tells us that nothing existed prior to the creation of light.

I simply believe that Verse 3 tells us much about the creative activity of God.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Greektim]

I like the illustration of water, being able to be liquid,solid, and gas,, yet still H2O

as well as the example of time being comprised of past,present,future, or how about length width and height making up the physical dimensions of something.

or how about the universe being space,matter,and time?

And that is modalism... heresy.

 

[Sapper Woody]

The best illustration I believe shows the trinity is man himself. No analogy is flawless, and this one certainly has its holes, but you can't use a finite example to describe an infinite being.

Take man, though. Body, mind, soul. My body is 100% me. Apart from the rest of me (mind and soul) people will still say it's me. "That's where he's buried." My soul is 100% me. When I die and my soul is in Heaven, it will be 100% me in Heaven. My thoughts, my personality, and my likes/dislikes are 100% me. My mind without the other two is still me.

This is where I think my analogy stands up better than the three dimensional discussion. I think an analogy in which all three parts are capable of solo existence, yet are all still parts of a whole works better.

If you erase length, you get rid of breadth and height. They are incapable of being apart. I think the Godhead is the opposite. Each is capable of solo existence, while simultaneously being unable to be separate.

 

[percho]

How about, Yahweh, Elohim of us, Yahweh one, having brought fourth through a virgin woman, his only begotten Son. That Son, being the Word of God spoken to the fathers by the prophets and now spoken unto us by Son?

Who died for our sins.

By which we received the Holy Spirit of promise.

The Word of God, that is the incorruptible seed, that begets us again, unto a lively hope.

Is that the Word of the God that was with the God from the beginning?

Brought forth as the only begotten Son of the Father?


I will ask again. Why does that have to be a trinity of God persons.

 

[percho]

The first thing God spoke into existence was light [Genesis 1:3] which is energy. I have often thought that all matter [mass occupying space] was then created from that light.

The 1st Law of Thermodynamics once said that energy can neither be created or destroyed or the energy of the universe is constant. With the advent of certain discoveries in the last century or so {fission, fusion,} that law is sometimes stated that the total energy, mass of the universe is constant.

I believe God spoke himself, Light, into the presence of the darkness that was upon the face of the deep. He then divided himself Light from the Darkness. And called the Light good.


For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. from 1 John 3:8

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

What was going to be required for there to be an only begotten Son of God, to destroy the works of the devil? Where was the devil when God said, "Let there be light"?

What were all three persons doing at this moment? Before it was said, "Let there be light," had God already made a promise, the hope of eternal life and had God already determined that the Christ would shed his sinless blood?

Was the purpose of the shedding of the blood, that through death he could destroy him who had the power of death, that is the devil and thus bring redemption from death?

What death? What Son of God, that would be the heir of God? Why would, God the Son, need to be an heir of anything? Why joint heirs with Christ, the Son of the living God?
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. ?

Just what was the God doing when he said, "Let there be light"?

 

[percho]

Something someone wrote in another thread, piqued my interest relative to this thread.

The Archangel, wrote;

I'm fairly well an A-mil guy... But, in reality, there is far too much ink and electrons spilled over this issue as if it were a doctrine on the same level as, the trinity, the divinity of Christ, the resurrection of Christ, etc. It simply does not rise to that level of importance.

What is so important about the doctrine of, the resurrection of the Anointed, relative to the doctrine of, the trinity?

Considering the doctrine of trinity, why resurrection, what is the necessity of resurrection, there being the trinity?

Especially relative to resurrection in the concept of Acts 2:27,31?


By that I mean what of who was resurrected from where, in what manner?

Almost the same question a man might ask; How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

Is the soul raised up from Hades in body incorruptible?


Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead; Gal 1:1

καὶ γὰρ ὁ πατὴρ τοιούτους ζητεῖ τοὺς προσκυνοῦντας αὐτόν πνεῦμα ὁ θεός καὶ τοὺς προσκυνοῦντας αὐτὸν ἐν πνεύματι καὶ ἀληθείᾳ δεῖ προσκυνεῖν From John 4:23,24 TR Who is speaking this?

 

[The Biblicist]

Dr. Morris states precisely what I have stated. Furthermore, Dr. Morris also acknowledges that there is no PERFECT model of the Trinity that can be found in nature but there is SUFFICIENT models that the "Godhead" can be "clearly seen" by those who examine nature.


These trinities pervading the creation may not be perfect reflections of the Creator. But they are good and realistic models of the tri-une God who made them. - Dr. Henry Morris

Paul is not speaking about persons with SCIENCE DEGREES in Romans 1:18-32 but the common ordinary observer of creation. A Triangle is a very simple and clear analogy of a Trinity although not a PERFECT analogy.

Three irrefutable facts are:

1. God is Triune IN NATURE
2. The NATURE of the triune Godhead is clearly seen in nature
3. The triune nature of time, space and matter is SUFFICIENT to make that clearly manifest.

The triune nature of time, space and matter does not teach modualism nor tritheism. The triune nature of time, space and matter has no other similarity than trinitarianism in regard to any doctrine about God, and therefore provides a SUFFICIENT similarity to the Trinitarian nature of God.

 

[OldRegular]

Three irrefutable facts are:

1. God is Triune IN NATURE
2. The NATURE of the triune Godhead is clearly seen in nature
3. The triune nature of time, space and matter is SUFFICIENT to make that clearly manifest.

The triune nature of time, space and matter does not teach modualism nor tritheism. The triune nature of time, space and matter has no other similarity than trinitarianism in regard to any doctrine about God, and therefore provides a SUFFICIENT similarity to the Trinitarian nature of God.

Thankfully God exist outside of time, space, and matter!

 

[Yeshua1]

Thankfully God exist outside of time, space, and matter!

yes, as he alone is Eternal, as ALL others things such as those were created by Him...

 

[Yeshua1]

And that is modalism... heresy.

Yes, as God is just ONE Being, but has been eternally expressed in 3 seperate and distinct persons...

 

[OldRegular]

Yes, as God is just ONE Being, but has been eternally expressed in 3 seperate and distinct persons...

I believe "expressed in 3 seperate and distinct persons" is misleading.

The LORD our God is one LORD [Deuteronomy 6:4] yet God exists eternally as three separate and distinct persons.

 

[The Biblicist]

Thankfully God exist outside of time, space, and matter!

Of course God transcends His creation but that does not mean His creation does not reveal God's triune nature as it clearly does to anyone who eyes to see.

 

[OldRegular]

Three irrefutable facts are:

1. God is Triune IN NATURE
2. The NATURE of the triune Godhead is clearly seen in nature
3. The triune nature of time, space and matter is SUFFICIENT to make that clearly manifest.

The triune nature of time, space and matter does not teach modualism nor tritheism. The triune nature of time, space and matter has no other similarity than trinitarianism in regard to any doctrine about God, and therefore provides a SUFFICIENT similarity to the Trinitarian nature of God.

Is it not misleading if not incorrect to say: " God is Triune IN NATURE"?

In the Triune Godhead there are three persons, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, but only one nature.

****************************************************************************

The 1644 London Baptist Confession reads as follows:

The Lord our God is but one God, whose subsistence is in Himself; whose essence cannot be comprehended by any but himself, who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light, which no man can approach unto; who is in Himself most holy, every way infinite, in greatness, wisdom, power, love, merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth; who giveth being, moving, and preservation to all creatures.

1 Cor. 8:6, Isa. 44:6, 46:9, Exod. 3:14, 1 Tim 6:16, Isa. 43:15; Ps. 147:5, Deut. 32:3; Job 36:5; Jer. 10:12, Exod. 34:6,7, Acts 17:28; Rom. 11:36.

II.

In this divine and infinite Being there is the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; each having the whole divine Essence, yet the Essence undivided; all infinite without any beginning, therefore but one God; who is not to be divided in nature, and being, but distinguished by several peculiar relative properties.

The 1689 Confession reads as follows:

Chapter 2: Of God and of the Holy Trinity

1. The Lord our God is but one only living and true God; whose subsistence is in and of himself, infinite in being and perfection; whose essence cannot be comprehended by any but himself; a most pure spirit, invisible, without body, parts, or passions, who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; who is immutable, immense, eternal, incomprehensible, almighty, every way infinite, most holy, most wise, most free, most absolute; working all things according to the counsel of his own immutable and most righteous will for his own glory; most loving, gracious, merciful, long-suffering, abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin; the rewarder of them that diligently seek him, and withal most just and terrible in his judgments, hating all sin, and who will by no means clear the guilty.
( 1 Corinthians 8:4, 6; Deuteronomy 6:4; Jeremiah 10:10; Isaiah 48:12; Exodus 3:14; John 4:24; 1 Timothy 1:17; Deuteronomy 4:15, 16; Malachi 3:6; 1 Kings 8:27; Jeremiah 23:23; Psalms 90:2; Genesis 17:1; Isaiah 6:3; Psalms 115:3; Isaiah 46:10; Proverbs 16:4; Romans 11:36; Exodus 34:6, 7; Hebrews 11:6; Nehemiah 9:32, 33; Psalms 5:5, 6; Exodus 34:7; Nahum 1:2, 3 )

2. God, having all life, glory, goodness, blessedness, in and of himself, is alone in and unto himself all-sufficient, not standing in need of any creature which he hath made, nor deriving any glory from them, but only manifesting his own glory in, by, unto, and upon them; he is the alone fountain of all being, of whom, through whom, and to whom are all things, and he hath most sovereign dominion over all creatures, to do by them, for them, or upon them, whatsoever himself pleaseth; in his sight all things are open and manifest, his knowledge is infinite, infallible, and independent upon the creature, so as nothing is to him contingent or uncertain; he is most holy in all his counsels, in all his works, and in all his commands; to him is due from angels and men, whatsoever worship, service, or obedience, as creatures they owe unto the Creator, and whatever he is further pleased to require of them.
( John 5:26; Psalms 148:13; Psalms 119:68; Job 22:2, 3; Romans 11:34-36; Daniel 4:25, 34, 35; Hebrews 4:13; Ezekiel 11:5; Acts 15:18; Psalms 145:17; Revelation 5:12-14 )

3. In this divine and infinite Being there are three subsistences, the Father, the Word or Son, and Holy Spirit, of one substance, power, and eternity, each having the whole divine essence, yet the essence undivided: the Father is of none, neither begotten nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father and the Son; all infinite, without beginning, therefore but one God, who is not to be divided in nature and being, but distinguished by several peculiar relative properties and personal relations; which doctrine of the Trinity is the foundation of all our communion with God, and comfortable dependence on him.
( 1 John 5:7; Matthew 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14; Exodus 3:14; John 14:11; 1 Corinthians 8:6; John 1:14,18; John 15:26; Galatians 4:6 )

1 Cor. 1:3; John 1:1, 15:26, Exod. 3:14; 1 Cor. 8:6