The drawing of God.

[utilyan]

John 6

52Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?”53So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.

It sounds like these guys are being offered the flesh of Jesus to eat, else there would not be anything to say NO to.

In other words. These people who reject Jesus have been drawn and a offer is given to them.

“This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” This is the response, to the peoples what do we have to do?



In the end they all leave Jesus, Do you think this whole chapter is about gloating on the reprobates?


I believe Calvinist Jesus would have been more efficient. Showed up......blindfold yourselves......smokem if you gottem.....God will regenerate you and if God doesn't like you he won't, have a great day.

 

[The Biblicist]

"This text also denies "all" is universal without distinction but rather it explicitly states "your children"

I usually don't get involved in calvinism debates, but this is silly talk.

All your children is all your children without distinction. The all refers to your children.

So all the world would refer to all the world without distinction. All men is all mankind without distinction.

Well, it would appear that your observations are quite obvious from the wording of the texts. But I guess what is obvious to some is not obvious to others, or so it would appear.

 

[The Biblicist]

Then there are the Catholics who can't understand plain metaphors even when they are spelled out in no uncertain terms by Christ (vv. 35, 47-48, 68).

 

[The Biblicist]

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that has heard, and has learned of the Father, comes to me.
46 Not that any man has seen the Father, save he which is of God, he has seen the Father.

Verse 46 is a further clarification of verse 45. This instructing by the Father is not external and visible as no man has seen the Father, but it is the Father teaching within the heart invisibly. This is precisely what Ezekiel and Jeremiah describe as the internal and unseen work of God whereby he gives the covenant elect a new heart and a new spirit. This is the instruction by the Father through the Holy Spirit within man by revelation that no man can convey to them (Jer. 31:33-34)

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, said the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, said the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. - Jer. 31:33-34

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you shall keep my judgments, and do them. - Ezek 36:26-27


For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, said the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he said, A new covenant, he has made the first old. Now that which decays and waxes old is ready to vanish away. - Hebrews 8:10-13

 

[Calminian]

That is because the Father is the One sending, and He is only sending those whom He has called. ....

I'm curious though about the meaning of called in the sequence of salvation. In the context of Romans, it seems to be in the sense of naming rather than drawing. For instance, in Romans 9:7 it says, "nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” In that sense, called carries the idea of named. In fact the NASB translates translated the word named.

IOWs I don't think called carries the idea of being drawn, but rather being named, which logically could be after God's drawing and after faith. We trust God and He calls us his own.

Rom. 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called [named, called His own], these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.​

Looking a this carefully, I don't think the actual drawing of the Spirit is mentioned in this sequence at all.

 

[SovereignGrace]

“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber. But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep. To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.”[John 10:1-5]

Jesus knows each and every sheep in such an intimate manner He calls them by their name(s). And in this divine calling, He draws them.

 

[Iconoclast]

I'm curious though about the meaning of called in the sequence of salvation. In the context of Romans, it seems to be in the sense of naming rather than drawing. For instance, in Romans 9:7 it says, "nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” In that sense, called carries the idea of named. In fact the NASB translates translated the word named.

IOWs I don't think called carries the idea of being drawn, but rather being named, which logically could be after God's drawing and after faith. We trust God and He calls us his own.

Rom. 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called [named, called His own], these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.​

Looking a this carefully, I don't think the actual drawing of the Spirit is mentioned in this sequence at all.

Jesus said it is the unseen work of the SpiritJn 3:3-5...it is like the wind, you see the effects but not the wind itself...
Certainly the flesh does not do what happens in romans 8 golden chain of redemption...are you just objecting to , object?

 

[The Biblicist]

I'm curious though about the meaning of called in the sequence of salvation. In the context of Romans, it seems to be in the sense of naming rather than drawing. For instance, in Romans 9:7 it says, "nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” In that sense, called carries the idea of named. In fact the NASB translates translated the word named.

IOWs I don't think called carries the idea of being drawn, but rather being named, which logically could be after God's drawing and after faith. We trust God and He calls us his own.

Rom. 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called [named, called His own], these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.​

Looking a this carefully, I don't think the actual drawing of the Spirit is mentioned in this sequence at all.

Actually, being called in Romans 8:29 refers to the creative command of God as in 2 Cor. 4:6 where Paul identifies the act of regeneration as the result of divine fiat similar to Genesis 1:3. The gospel is energized with God's power and becomes a command that creates us in Christ Jesus (Eph. 2:10) or brings us into spiritual union with God. Paul tells the Thessalonians that they can know they are the elect of God (1 Thes. 1:4) by the way the gospel came to them. The gospel did not come to them "in word only but in power and in the Spirit and in much assurance" (1 Thes. 1:5) transforming them inside out unto the same character of men who preached the gospel to them.

The sequence is that the gospel is brought by man to our minds,but when it pleases God He energizes that word into a creative command that calls "the light of knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ" within the darkened heart thus disspelling the metaphorical darkness by this metaphorical light (2 Cor. 4:6). That light of knowledge becomes the "substance" of saving faith as well as the "hope" of saving faith, thus creating a believing heart within the elect and it is with that heart man believeth unto righteousness. Therefore, faith cometh by hearing (inner hearing) and hearing by the rhema (command) of God" - Rom. 10:17. However, when the command of men to repent is without the command of God there is no faith (Rom. 10:18).

 

[utilyan]

Then there are the Catholics who can't understand plain metaphors even when they are spelled out in no uncertain terms by Christ (vv. 35, 47-48, 68).

I'm sure these pagans didn't understand plain metaphors either:

Acts 17

26and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’


God appointed their times and boundries for the purpose that they would seek God even grope for him.

 

[BobRyan]

John 6

52Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?”53So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.

It sounds like these guys are being offered the flesh of Jesus to eat, else there would not be anything to say NO to. .

They bungled the meaning of his message and rejected the Gospel altogether.
Like those at his trial claiming he said he would destroy the building of the temple and rebuild it in 3 days.
like the disciples in Matt 16

Matt 16
8 But Jesus, aware of this, said, “You men of little faith, why do you discuss among yourselves that you have no bread? 9 Do you not yet understand or remember the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets full you picked up? 10 Or the seven loaves of the four thousand, and how many large baskets full you picked up? 11 How is it that you do not understand that I did not speak to you concerning (literal) bread? But beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” 12 Then they understood that He did not say to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

So as you say - the faithLESS disciples took Him too literally while rejecting his message in John 6.

Thus He draws all men - but even among His own followers not everyone accepts.

But notice what the faithFUL disciples say ...

John 6
61 But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, “Does this cause you to stumble? 62 What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” ...66 As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore. 67 So Jesus said to the twelve, “You do not want to go away also, do you?” 68 Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God.

Peter does not say 'you have the flesh of eternal life" but in keeping with the vs53 statement where eating the flesh is worthless and the Word is Life - "63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life."

Goes back to John 1 "the WORD became flesh and dwelt among us" and in John 6 "I am the BREAD that came down out of heaven"

 

[MennoSota]

I'm sure these pagans didn't understand plain metaphors either:

Acts 17

26and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’


God appointed their times and boundries for the purpose that they would seek God even grope for him.

Go further, utilyan. God appointed their times, their boundaries...and...their seeking that they might grope for him and find him.
Our existence is only because God exists. What sort of free will exists in light of the verses you quoted?

 

[steaver]

In John 6:44 we read, "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws Him...". So, soteriology speaking*, those who do not come cannot come. Why? Because they have not been called by the Father, so that the Father can give them to the Son.

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"

 

[MennoSota]

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"

Do you imagine the verse you quoted teaches free will? If so you have a vast imagination.

 

[utilyan]

Go further, utilyan. God appointed their times, their boundaries...and...their seeking that they might grope for him and find him.
Our existence is only because God exists. What sort of free will exists in light of the verses you quoted?

The word "MIGHT". Here God is doing something with the persuasive purpose that someone MIGHT seek him.

God is not so weak that he must mind rape ,threaten, irresistibly force or intimidate.

Your view of power is flawed because you have based it on fear.

If a guy with a gun came in a room with all of us who read this thread, and then shot one of us and turns to say "I'm going to let you live I'm just going to shoot some others". You would be happy and thank the fellah, asking if you can help him or spread his message. You would gloat about it and call the killer a great person because its a miracle he would decide to even spare anyone.

That's the kind of person YOU ARE.

Have that guy try that around me, Nope. I am not a coward.

You don't understand power.

A cry of a infant can make mountains shake. You never going to know what real fear is till you lose someone you love ,if at all, doesn't work much for a person who only cares for themselves.

 

[utilyan]

Do you imagine the verse you quoted teaches free will? If so you have a vast imagination.

Its impossible for him to have a imagination unless he were allowed free reign to create it.

You would claim we have as much free will as the rock outside.

Do you complain to a rock because it imagines being a pickle?




A Calvinist with common sense would have nothing to say, because there is no one there to say it to. Even if a soul is restrained to a binary choice whats behind the choice freely makes the choice. If he can't then GOD IS DRIVING, and GOD is the only soul behind the whole thing.


See Calvinism is trying to be bit like hinduism were everyone in a sense is already divine and God......already elect from before the foundation of the world, and your not really trying aquiring anything, you just need the ENLIGHTENMENT of gnostic understanding that you have been chosen.


Even when you argue and debate with me? Did I have a choice?

According to YOU, You are not arguing with UTILYAN, He never had a say in any of his actions. You are arguing with GOD ALMIGHTY.

 

[Revmitchell]

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"

Reformed folks apply passages like John 6 and John 17 to all the elect. To do so is to rip it out of its context. Those who the Father gave Jesus at the time that He said this was the disciples only not all the elect.

 

[MennoSota]

God is not so weak that he must mind rape ,

You lost me with the comment above.
Utilyan, you seem to imagine that you have something within you in which God is obligated to you and owes you a favor.
The Bible totally rejects your opinion.
I watch as you rush toward hell with your hands over your ears. I pray that God might mercifully stop you. I have no idea if He will and I know that He is not obligated to save you from your self.

 

[Yeshua1]

Its impossible for him to have a imagination unless he were allowed free reign to create it.

You would claim we have as much free will as the rock outside.

Do you complain to a rock because it imagines being a pickle?




A Calvinist with common sense would have nothing to say, because there is no one there to say it to. Even if a soul is restrained to a binary choice whats behind the choice freely makes the choice. If he can't then GOD IS DRIVING, and GOD is the only soul behind the whole thing.


See Calvinism is trying to be bit like hinduism were everyone in a sense is already divine and God......already elect from before the foundation of the world, and your not really trying aquiring anything, you just need the ENLIGHTENMENT of gnostic understanding that you have been chosen.


Even when you argue and debate with me? Did I have a choice?

According to YOU, You are not arguing with UTILYAN, He never had a say in any of his actions. You are arguing with GOD ALMIGHTY.

God choose to exercise his free will to save Saul, could saul have resisted Him and stayed lost?

 

[MennoSota]

Its impossible for him to have a imagination unless he were allowed free reign to create it.

You would claim we have as much free will as the rock outside.

Do you complain to a rock because it imagines being a pickle?




A Calvinist with common sense would have nothing to say, because there is no one there to say it to. Even if a soul is restrained to a binary choice whats behind the choice freely makes the choice. If he can't then GOD IS DRIVING, and GOD is the only soul behind the whole thing.


See Calvinism is trying to be bit like hinduism were everyone in a sense is already divine and God......already elect from before the foundation of the world, and your not really trying aquiring anything, you just need the ENLIGHTENMENT of gnostic understanding that you have been chosen.


Even when you argue and debate with me? Did I have a choice?

According to YOU, You are not arguing with UTILYAN, He never had a say in any of his actions. You are arguing with GOD ALMIGHTY.

You do not comprehend free will. It has been explained to you more times than I can count. You are blind and deaf to God's call. No one can help you. May God have mercy on your soul.

 

[The Biblicist]

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"

Yes, the problem is in man not God. The unregenerate man "always resists the Holy Spirit" (Acts 7:51) because the natural mind is at enmity with God and is not subject to the law and neither indeed can be (Rom. 8:7).

Nothing but man's own depraved resistant will is responsible for his damnation and nothing but the free grace of God is responsible for the salvation of the elect.