The effect of Free Will on Scripture.

[MB]

You think you had a choice but your choice was already predetermined and you could make no other choice, you received Christ because God had already done His work inside you first. Jesus is author and finisher of your faith. Without Him you could and would have done nothing but reject Christ as does everyone that God has not made born again. You must be born again first in order to to see the kingdom of heaven.

John 3 and John 6 tells us all about this, how God works His salvation inside of us.
Not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to His mercy He saved us.
Your faith is a gift from God, otherwise you would have none in Christ as the Son of God sent to save you from your sins.
Romans 12
3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

Romans 4:16-18 New King James Version (NKJV)
16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be [a]sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.”

If it is of faith that it might be by Grace Then predetermination is bunk It is not by predetermination. The man must believe.first. Determinism claims that man is saved so that he can believe isn't true at all.
Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Mat 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Everyone that receives must ask. This proves there is no predeterminism.
MB

 

[tyndale1946]

Now how many times has this discussion of free-will been brought up?... A lot... And even though you think you can, brethren you can't change your own heart!... Brother Glen

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Scott Downey]

If it is of faith that it might be by Grace Then predetermination is bunk It is not by predetermination. The man must believe.first. Determinism claims that man is saved so that he can believe isn't true at all.
Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Mat 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Everyone that receives must ask. This proves there is no predeterminism.
MB

The reason they seek is God has been doing a work in them, because no one seeks for God unless He helps them to know Him.
Jesus teaches none can know Him or the Father unless He wills that they know Him.
So then it is not your choice or your will to know God and Christ is it. The only reason you have any faith in Him is He willed it to be so.

Luke 10, Jesus Rejoices in the Spirit
21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.

22 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”

Since faith is a gift, then of course your faith is predetermined. You can not deny predestination as it is taught in scripture.

 

[Scott Downey]

James 1:17-18 New King James Version (NKJV)
17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.

18 Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.

Salvation is of the Lord.

 

[1689Dave]

The answer is there is no effect on scripture. It is scripture that effects the people who read and study it. I have the freewill to ask for Salvation therefore I asked and it was given. Very scriptural
Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Mat 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
MB

I see it as God is the mover, everything else moves according to the way he moves it. Including our choices.

 

[tyndale1946]

I see it as God is the mover, everything else moves according to the way he moves it. Including our choices.

AMEN!!!... Brother Dave

Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

 

[MB]

How do you present the passaged in Matthew 7 in conformity to Paul's statement in Romans 3: ?

9What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin,
10as it is written:

“None is righteous, no, not one;
11no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
13“Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14“Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15“Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16in their paths are ruin and misery,
17and the way of peace they have not known.”
18“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”​

19Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
​

Where is free will found in the estate of ALL people - both Jews and Greeks?

Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it..

The fact that the Jews rejected Christ shows free will to reject Christ. The fact that the Salvation of God was sent to the Gentile proves they do hear it.
These two verses proves that everyone can ask and receive.
Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Mat 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
I believe they are self explanatory and do not need any other coment.
When you put Christ and Paul at odds Christ always wins..

How do you present the passaged in Matthew 7 in conformity to Paul's statement in Romans 3: ?
May I suggest that 2 Corinthians placed your "free will" not as self expression but as that resulting cry every baby has at birth.

As a matter of fact all men are dealt a measure of faith to begin with. It's a beginning of what can take a person from lost to saved. Imagine that the same faith increased by the word of God Can save. God's word is the only means of Salvation that we have and as soon as one hears it or reads it the Spirit is there to convince and convict.

3And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. 6For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. ...

...

17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 18All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.​

MB, I have no doubt concerning your own belief, nor that you do certainly believe.

All I am suggesting is that the expression in which you call "free will" did not start the Salvation, but was the result of the Salvation. As Romans 10 states:

8But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

NIV - For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.
​

Now, don't go to seed on the idea that confession brings salvation. Rather, the phrasing indicates time and place of the confession that you are saved. That something was "inserted" in a prepositional fashion in which the result was the core determiner of life and living changed. Does not verse 8 state that The WORD was already near you, IN your heart and IN your mouth.

For example: As a child, at my mother's knee, I came to know the Savior. At that point I confessed Him as my Savior. That did not bring salvation, but was the acknowledgement of having been saved by Him for His purpose. The core change had already taken place, was already impressing upon me the need to acknowledge salvation. The Word was already in my heart, and in my mouth, and there was no being able to prevent confession of Him as my Savior.

There is unity in Matthew and Romans, but not if the exercise of "free will" is the focus, but rather His will in opening your heart and mouth
.

I have to disagree I was at the place of coming to Christ several times and rejected the Idea and the draw. It wasn't until I was completely convinced and convicted of my sins. Oh I felt the conviction everytime I was in church I was also aware of being almost convinced and still I rejected Him. It took a certain sermon and a presentation of what I didn't know. I was a hypocrite and knowing this there had to be a change of my attitude and rebellion It made me realize I needed Jesus. I asked the Lord to save me and He did.

I do not find predetermination in scripture. I could never tell someone bad news such as predetermination in that God predetermined those who would be saved leaving all others out of it. That is not an accurate picture of my Savior. It's not just a certain few who can be saved. My Lord died so the whole world could be saved. Now this is good news.
MB

 

[MB]

I see it as God is the mover, everything else moves according to the way he moves it. Including our choices.

I'm sorry to say you are wrong in how you see it.
MB

 

[1689Dave]

I'm sorry to say you are wrong in how you see it.
MB

Here's something to think about. If God loves you for a reason found in you (free will etc.), he doesn't need to save you as much as if you have nothing to love (no free will) and he hates you. (God hates the wicked Psalm 11:5) But he saves you because he is love. = you get none of the glory. But in saving you, he gives you a lovable nature. And since it is him giving it, he still receives full glory in salvation.

 

[MB]

Here's something to think about. If God loves you for a reason found in you (free will etc.), he doesn't need to save you as much as if you have nothing to love (no free will) and he hates you. (God hates the wicked Psalm 11:5) But he saves you because he is love. = you get none of the glory. But in saving you, he gives you a lovable nature. And since it is him giving it, he still receives full glory in salvation.

This your imagination God loves the whole world He created it to LOVE"Jn. 3:16. God so Loves the world" Are you saying God loves and hates at the same time ?
One of our Lords Commandments was Love thy neighbor as thy self. Does God sin? No so your interpretation must be wrong then. Our lord also said to love our enemies. But you claim God sins and hates His enemies..
MB

 

[MB]

James 1:17-18 New King James Version (NKJV)
17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.

18 Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.

Salvation is of the Lord.

Note neither verse states Salvation was given against the man's own will and verse 18 states the words might be a kind of first fruits

Eph_1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. KJV
MB

 

[Scott Downey]

Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it..

The fact that the Jews rejected Christ shows free will to reject Christ. The fact that the Salvation of God was sent to the Gentile proves they do hear it.
These two verses proves that everyone can ask and receive.
Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Mat 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
I believe they are self explanatory and do not need any other coment.
When you put Christ and Paul at odds Christ always wins..



As a matter of fact all men are dealt a measure of faith to begin with. It's a beginning of what can take a person from lost to saved. Imagine that the same faith increased by the word of God Can save. God's word is the only means of Salvation that we have and as soon as one hears it or reads it the Spirit is there to convince and convict.



I have to disagree I was at the place of coming to Christ several times and rejected the Idea and the draw. It wasn't until I was completely convinced and convicted of my sins. Oh I felt the conviction everytime I was in church I was also aware of being almost convinced and still I rejected Him. It took a certain sermon and a presentation of what I didn't know. I was a hypocrite and knowing this there had to be a change of my attitude and rebellion It made me realize I needed Jesus. I asked the Lord to save me and He did.

I do not find predetermination in scripture. I could never tell someone bad news such as predetermination in that God predetermined those who would be saved leaving all others out of it. That is not an accurate picture of my Savior. It's not just a certain few who can be saved. My Lord died so the whole world could be saved. Now this is good news.
MB

Hardness came upon the jews so that the gospel could go to the gentiles. That was God's decision, the unbelieving jews just could not believe in Christ as God had not ordained that for them. And why are you so resistant to this?

John 12
37 But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, 38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke:
“Lord, who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”
39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:
40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.”
41 These things Isaiah said [f]when he saw His glory and spoke of Him.

 

[Scott Downey]

Romans 11, regarding the unbelieving jews, and why they did not believe in Christ is because God had given them a spirit of stupor and blind eyes that can not see, and deaf ears that can not hear, down to the present day it is so.. However the ELECT did believe, while the rest were blinded by God. This is the way it is because salvation is by grace alone, the election by grace, otherwise it is a work, and God wont allow that, no sir..

4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. [a]But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:
“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Six Hour Warning
This thread will be closed sometime after 8 PM Pacific.

 

[MB]

Hardness came upon the jews so that the gospel could go to the gentiles. That was God's decision, the unbelieving jews just could not believe in Christ as God had not ordained that for them. And why are you so resistant to this?

I am not resistant to the paragraph above.What makes you think I am?

John 12
37 But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, 38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke:
“Lord, who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”
39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:
40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.”
41 These things Isaiah said [f]when he saw His glory and spoke of Him.

The verses 39 above is addressed to the Jews. Are you a Jew? How can what is meant for the Jew have any effect on me. When God has granted repentance to the Gentiles.
Act_11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
MB

 

[MB]

Romans 11, regarding the unbelieving jews, and why they did not believe in Christ is because God had given them a spirit of stupor and blind eyes that can not see, and deaf ears that can not hear, down to the present day it is so.. However the ELECT did believe, while the rest were blinded by God. This is the way it is because salvation is by grace alone, the election by grace, otherwise it is a work, and God wont allow that, no sir..

You don't know what you are talking about
There is not one Gentile ever called elect in scripture. You cannot show even one elect gentile.What applies to the elect is priesthood and a People unto God of which only Jews are elect.

4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. [a]But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:
“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”

Where does it say this applies to Gentiles? Answer; It doesn't
MB

 

[Scott Downey]

I am not resistant to the paragraph above.What makes you think I am?



The verses 39 above is addressed to the Jews. Are you a Jew? How can what is meant for the Jew have any effect on me. When God has granted repentance to the Gentiles.
Act_11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
MB

Your not even logically following your own words.
You said they exercised their free will to reject Christ.

Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it..
"The fact that the Jews rejected Christ shows free will to reject Christ."

Except scriptures say God blinded the jews so they could not believe. So really who had their wills free? The jews did not have a free will, God had modified them, so they had no free will to believe, can you even say they had the free will to not believe. Seeing God had done these things, they had no genuine free will. Everyone reacts in a certain way to the environment they are placed into. God made certain by His own actions that they did not believe in Christ. It is worthless trying to discuss with you when your being this way. God's plan is to send the gospel to the gentiles, by hardening the jews (but not all were hardened as some did believe in Christ). And then after the full number of the gentiles have been saved, after the times of the gentiles is completed, (see there is that predestination thing again), God will it says, save all of Israel.

Romans 11
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

 

[tyndale1946]

Your not even logically following your own words.
You said they exercised their free will to reject Christ.

Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it..
"The fact that the Jews rejected Christ shows free will to reject Christ."

Except scriptures say God blinded the jews so they could not believe. So really who had their wills free? The jews did not have a free will, God had modified them, so they had no free will to believe, can you even say they had the free will to not believe. Seeing God had done these things, they had no genuine free will. Everyone reacts in a certain way to the environment they are placed into. God made certain by His own actions that they did not believe in Christ. It is worthless trying to discuss with you when your being this way. God's plan is to send the gospel to the gentiles, by hardening the jews (but not all were hardened as some did believe in Christ). And then after the full number of the gentiles have been saved, after the times of the gentiles is completed, (see there is that predestination thing again), God will it says, save all of Israel.

Romans 11
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

What do you mean by ALL Israel?... You mean ALL spiritual Israel, right?... Just wanted to make sure we are on the same page here... Brother Glen

Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

[Scott Downey]

What do you mean by ALL Israel?... You mean ALL spiritual Israel, right?... Just wanted to make sure we are on the same page here... Brother Glen

Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

The scripture says 'all Israel will be saved'. Who is of the Israel of God is the answer. Called by Him to be saved. Not every jew is of Israel. Read Romans 9:6-8

 

[tyndale1946]

The scripture says 'all Israel will be saved'. Who is of the Israel of God is the answer. Called by Him to be saved. Not every jew is of Israel. Read Romans 9:6-8

I know that!... Just checking to see if we were on the same page... New blood!... Why do they always get so testy?... Welcome to the BB... Brother Glen