The Effects of Calvinism

[Salamander]

I know next to nothing about Primitive Baptists, but I would agree that some people may be saved without hearing the Gospel. I don't know for a fact that some will be saved without hearing the Gospel, but I tend to avoid putting God in a box where anything is concerned. If God wants to save someone without bringing the Gospel to him, that's up to God. He's in charge.

Naaaaaaank! There are a few Scriptures that disagree with you. II Tim 3:16 for one.raying:

No one has ever been, nor ever will be ,saved short of the Gospel.

 

[Salamander]

Well, except that Calvary was His plan and it has already been executed. And when the Bible says that no one comes to the Father except through Jesus, I find that to be an absolute. It isn't putting God in a box to say that there are no exceptions, because the verse says there are no exceptions.​

True​

I don't know of any verse that says one MUST be saved by hearing the Gospel, and no other way. I know of verses that say "faith comes by hearing, and hearing [comes by] the uttered word of God". But that isn't restrictive, it is instructive.

"No man cometh unto the Father but by me", Jesus said. He IS the Gospel.

Remember, it's easy to turn verses into rules that God breaks all the time. "It is appointed for man once to die". Yeah, but Lazarus, Dorcas, and many others died more than once. So obviously this isn't an absolute.

You've misapplied the doctrine of that particular death. It is speaking of the first death physical, that has no ability to be alive again except through the power of God. That life was temporally ended and noted as "asleep".

Once dead, physical, then the judgement is exactly right, but you must remember that Jesus told them Lazarus would be raised again to show forth the power of God.

 

[J.D.]

True, all without exception must come to the Father thru the Son. So how was it that Moses or any other O.T. saint came to the Father? Maybe whatever the means or method of bringing the OT saints to the Father is the same means or method by which some may be brought to the Father without the Gospel? One thing I do know is that the blood of Christ is the ONLY means by which God's wrath can be abated and settled, and anyone that enters God eternal kingdom must be justified through His blood. What is your take on that, Pinoybaptist?

 

[psalms109:31]

Romans 11

hebrews 11 tells how people where saved before the cross.

People who were looking for the one who would crush the serpents head.

It is all about belief of the messenger sent by God.

They believed God and it was credited to Him as righteousness.

We are saved by looking back at the cross, they are saved by looking forward to it. There is no difference between those two.

How important is the messenger?

Ezekiel 3:
18"Suppose I say to a sinful person, 'You can be sure you will die.' And you do not warn him. You do not try to get him to change his evil ways in order to save his life. Then he will die because he has sinned. And I will hold you accountable for his death.

19"But suppose you do warn that sinful person. And he does not turn away from his sin or his evil ways. Then he will die because he has sinned. But you will have saved yourself.

20"Or suppose a godly person turns away from his godliness and does what is evil. And suppose I put something in his way that will trip him up. Then he will die. Since you did not warn him, he will die for his sin. The godly things he did will not be remembered. And I will hold you accountable for his death.

21"But suppose you do warn a godly person not to sin. And he does not sin. Then you can be sure that he will live because he listened to your warning. And you will have saved yourself."

Hebrews 11 I mean, if you read this earlier

 

[Tom Butler]

This is just a thought, and is Butler theology, with no specific scripture verse to back it up.

When we look back at the cross to the finished atoning work of Christ, and the OT saints looked forward to the promised Messiah, we must remember that in the mind of God, Christ's atoning work was as finished from the foundation of the world.

In human time, the OT saints had to wait for their redemption. But their redemption was already accomplished in a way. That's why God could impute righteousness to Abraham

If this is off base, I stand ready for correction.

 

[npetreley]

This is just a thought, and is Butler theology, with no specific scripture verse to back it up.

When we look back at the cross to the finished atoning work of Christ, and the OT saints looked forward to the promised Messiah, we must remember that in the mind of God, Christ's atoning work was as finished from the foundation of the world.

In human time, the OT saints had to wait for their redemption. But their redemption was already accomplished in a way. That's why God could impute righteousness to Abraham

If this is off base, I stand ready for correction.

I don't think it's off base at all.

 

[psalms109:31]

Righteousness

The scripture clearly shows throughout scripture from the beginning to end that God imputed righteouseness because our belief in Him

#John 1:12
Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

Romans 4:3
What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

Galatians 3:6
Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

1 Thessalonians 2:10
You are witnesses, and so is God, of how holy, righteous and blameless we were among you who believed.

James 2:23
And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend.

We all are headed for destruction for we are predestined by God before even the foundation of the world, by His very word. To be condemned because we have not believed. Not because you were not chosen, because you have not believed.

Believers have been predestined for salvation by God's very word, that whosoever belielieves shall(predestined) to be saved.

It doesn't say might or maybe but shall be saved.

Don't let men give you doubt. God loved the world, that means all of you that He sent His Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall be saved.

Jesus is the only one that can save you.

The chosen people of God was cut out for unbelief.

Don't be arrogant, but afraid. If God did not spare these natural branches He will not spare us either.

We are His messengers of hope, and the blood of these people are on our hands.

Paul knew this, you can tell by His life.

So many people just through out seeds hoping to get good soil, but end up like the parable.

You have to prepare the soil. Ask any gardener and farmer, what will happen if God alone did all the work in the field.

 

[doulous]

How does your belief in the ideal of Calvinism effect your witness to others?

If you've witnessed at all, and the one you've witnessed to several times, has responded with no observable positive result, do you just give up, deciding they must not be elect?

Is there a level of the negative effects of Calvinistic beliefs that would then hinder you from further witnessing to such a person?

1. The only change in my gospel presentation is that I do not press for a "sinners prayer." I am not against prayer in that situation but do not want to give the impression that the person can say a quick prayer and get the "Jesus insurance policy."

2. If I stop witnessing to a person it has nothing to do with whether I think they are elect. How many times does this need to be said? Calvinists do not make the determination on who is elect. God does. If I stop witnessing it is usually because a person has told me they do not want to hear it or they are hostile towards the message of the cross. But even when I cannot witness, I can pray.

3. There are no negative effects of Calvinism that I can think of. I gave you my reasons for not witnessing above.

 

[Salamander]

So you think because they've become hostile that you are driving them away?

Let me ask, just how far past hell could you possibly drive them away?

I never have relinquished hope. I still witness to those who have cussed me threatened me and just brushed me off. Why, I even still witness to those who say they're "saved" but obviously they could not actually be saved or they make God a liar, and guess what?raise: :Fish: raise: He cannot lie!

 

[Salamander]

This is just a thought, and is Butler theology, with no specific scripture verse to back it up.

When we look back at the cross to the finished atoning work of Christ, and the OT saints looked forward to the promised Messiah, we must remember that in the mind of God, Christ's atoning work was as finished from the foundation of the world.

In human time, the OT saints had to wait for their redemption. But their redemption was already accomplished in a way. That's why God could impute righteousness to Abraham

If this is off base, I stand ready for correction.

Try Eph 4:8 and explain the First fruits of the Ressurrection without the Gospel, it cannot be done.raying:
The righteousness imputed to Abraham is what allowed him into Paradise, as well as the rest of the First fruits.raise: :Fish: raise:

 

[doulous]

I never have relinquished hope. I still witness to those who have cussed me threatened me and just brushed me off. Why, I even still witness to those who say they're "saved" but obviously they could not actually be saved or they make God a liar.

Good for you.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

How does your belief in the ideal of Calvinism effect your witness to others?

If you've witnessed at all, and the one you've witnessed to several times, has responded with no observable positive result, do you just give up, deciding they must not be elect?

Is there a level of the negative effects of Calvinistic beliefs that would then hinder you from further witnessing to such a person?

1. The main difference I have seen within myself since I rejected the Arminian Heresy and embraced the Biblical Doctrines of grace is that I don't spend as much time endeavoring to witness using human wisdom, and instead, tend to focus on the Word of God. If God's Word will not return void, then it is wholly sufficient for witnessing. Therefore, I find it more important to proclaim and explain Christ and him Crucifed, and not argue, debate, and try to prove it to the unregenrate as it is not something they will ever understand or embrace without the regenerating power of God working in their lives.

2. I have witnessed to several of my friends. I continue to pray for them and witness to them. I will continue to witness to them until they are either saved or dead, unless they simply tell me to go away and leave them alone. In that case I will pray for them. It is not up to me to determine who the elect are and are not. That is God's choice. It is up to me to obey my master, the Lord Jesus Christ, and proclaim the Word of God to all men. I will do so. God will reveal in his time who the elect are and who the elect are not.

3. Not for me.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[J.D.]

How does your belief in the ideal of Calvinism effect your witness to others?

If you've witnessed at all, and the one you've witnessed to several times, has responded with no observable positive result, do you just give up, deciding they must not be elect?

Is there a level of the negative effects of Calvinistic beliefs that would then hinder you from further witnessing to such a person?

1. I witness as often and as fervently as I ever have. The difference is now I lay down my head at night in peace knowing that God will use His word to His glory. I'm not worrying whether I should have used Joh 3:16 instead of Rom 6:23, or whether I should have used such-and-such illustrations, etc.

2. I never give up, but I do shut up and wait for God to open the door for a revisit. The fact that they may be elect gives me hope and the reason for never giving up. They may yet come to know the Lord, even on the death-bed. The fact that I don't know who is elect and who is not give me even more reason to witness without discrimination or fainting.

3. No. I can't think of anything in my belief system that has a negative effect on my witnessing. Calvinism does not cause people to refrain from witnessing. If there are Calvinists that don't believe in witnessing, they didn't get that from Calvinism, but from there own mind.

 

[Terry_Herrington]

I want to thank the posters in this thread. I have learned much, and it has been a pleasure to read something presented in a way that edifies rather than condemns.

I am not a Calvinist, and probably never will be, but I see that many of the preconceived notions I have held are not necessarily believed by all who consider themselves to be Calvinist.

We may well find that none of us are as correct or as incorrect as we think we are.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by NPetreley
Those who are appointed to eternal life will believe.

I agree with this 100%, too, as a non calvinist:thumbs:

If you agree with this statement 100%, then you are a Calvinist wheter you know it or not.:thumbs:

Joseph Botwinick

 

[webdog]

If you agree with this statement 100%, then you are a Calvinist wheter you know it or not.:thumbs:

Joseph Botwinick

What I agreed to was the fact that it is not my point to get the person saved, just share the Gospel. We don't know who will or who won't come to Christ, like npetreley said. I missed the "appointed" phrase initially, and took it as a normal non calvinist would...faith in Christ = appointed to salvation. I don't agree with unconditional "appointment" at all.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Npet, certainly God could save some people independently of the gospel, if he so wills. He also could save people without Jesus having to go through that messy business on Calvary, if he so willed. But one must explain away I Cor 1:21, where Paul states unequivocally that God is pleased to save people through the foolishness of preaching.

If that is putting God in a box, it is a box He put himself in.

If the Primitives are right about means, then for goodness sake, let's not take the gospel anywhere, lest people hear it, reject it and condemn themselves to Hell.

Here are the problems I see with both your arguments:

1. The Bible tells us in Romans 1 the following:

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Romans 1:18-20

From this passage, we see that God did indeed reveal himself to mankind through creation without the Gospel being preached.

also, the Bible tells us this:

1Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. 2This is what the ancients were commended for.

3By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible. 4By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.
5By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
7By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.
8By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.
11By faith Abraham, even though he was past age—and Sarah herself was barren—was enabled to become a father because he[a]considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore. 13All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. 14People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

Hebrews 11:1-16

In other words, in the Old Testament, before the Gospel was ever preached, God saved lost humanity. These Biblical passages seem to agree with Pinoy and NPetr.

2. Your conclusion is flawed as to the outcome of the Primitives being correct. We don't choose to or not to preach the Gospel based on the outcomes of our preaching. We do so because of our obedience to our Lord's commands:

The Great Commission

Acts 1:8

2 Timothy 4:1-5

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Tom Butler]

Joseph, you are right and thanks for the correction. What was I thinking? For some reason I regurgitated an old answer to the assertion that those who haven't heard the gospel preached cannot be condemned for unbelief. If that's true, let's don't preach it lest they reject it. I'll be fine as soon as the fever breaks!

I do agree that they are without excuse.

Now, let's chase this rabbit. I believe those folks will be judged, not on their rejection of Christ obviously, but on their failure to live up to their own moral code. He can't claim God is unfair because he made up his own code of right and wrong, and still couldn't keep it. Any thoughts.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Tom,

Please forgive me, but I don't think I am following you. Could you please put your argument and question in dummy language so that someone like me can understand it?

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Tom Butler]

Joseph, I am speaking of the passages in Romans 1 and 2.

Romans 1 says people are without excuse because they can see the creation, which reveals God to them. So they are without excuse for rejecting God.

But they cannot be condemned for rejecting Jesus, of whom they have never heard. And they cannot be condemned by the Law, of which they had no knowledge. So how will they be judged? Since "they are a law unto themselves" (2:14), that is, they have their own moral code, or sense of right and wrong, that is the basis of their judgment. And since they cannot adhere perfectly to their own law, they will be condemned.

That's what I was trying to say in my earlier post, but it needed setting up better.

Tom