The Effects of Calvinism

[Salamander]

So are you some how saying that Jesus is powerless to save the world?raying:

 

[webdog]

So are you some how saying that Jesus is powerless to save the world?raying:

That is the same question I asked a few pages back...

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Isn't Jesus still the Word??

Jesus came not into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.raise: :Fish: raise:

Something WRONG with your theology.raying:

In the sense that is presented in John 1, yes, Jesus is the Word made flesh.

In Hebrews 4, we see, however, that the Bible is the referred to as the Word of God in that it is God's written word to us:

12For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

Hebrews 4:12-13

The Bible also tells us that the Jews were entrusted with the Word of God, referring to Scripture:

1What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? 2Much in every way! First of all, they have been entrusted with the very words of God.

Romans 3:1-2

Paul exhorts Timothy to Preach the Word in the following passage:

1In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: 2Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. 3For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 5But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.

2 Timothy 4:1-5

Luke tells us that the people were gathered around Jesus as he was proclaiming the Word of God here:

1One day as Jesus was standing by the Lake of Gennesaret,[a]with the people crowding around him and listening to the word of God,

Luke 5:1

Luke also tells us that Peter and John, after being filled with the Holy Spirit, preached the Word of God:

31After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly.

Acts 4:31

13And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe.

1 Thessalonians 2:13

36Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? 37If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command. 38If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored.[i]

1 Corinthians 14:36-38

17Unlike so many, we do not peddle the word of God for profit. On the contrary, in Christ we speak before God with sincerity, like men sent from God.

2 Corinthians 2:17

1Therefore, since through God's mercy we have this ministry, we do not lose heart. 2Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 3And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. 6For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness,"[a]made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

2 Corinthians 4:1-6

6Anyone who receives instruction in the word must share all good things with his instructor.

Galatians 6:6

17Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

Ephesians 6:17

24Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church. 25I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness— 26the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the saints. 27To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Collosians 1:24-27

As to your assertion that Jesus came not to condemn the world:

5But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) 6Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? 7Someone might argue, "If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?" 8Why not say—as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say—"Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is deserved.

Romans 3:5-8

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

So are you some how saying that Jesus is powerless to save the world?raying:

I have said no such thing. Would you and webdog please quit slandering me by making things up and attributing them to me?

Joseph Botwinick

 

[skypair]

All Calvinists I know teach free will inasmuch as lost man is free to follow the will of his master, which is the sin nature, and the elect / those whom God regenerates, are free to follow the will of their master, who is God.

Joseph Botwinick

"Creative." But Calvinists admit that they are "totally depraved" to begin with as well -- so how is God their master any more that He is "Master" of the lost? All in the world that the lost are is "elect" before they are regenerated! I don't see your point at all.

skypair

 

[whatever]

"Creative." But Calvinists admit that they are "totally depraved" to begin with as well -- so how is God their master any more that He is "Master" of the lost? All in the world that the lost are is "elect" before they are regenerated! I don't see your point at all.

skypair

It's just like Joseph said. We follow our master, our sin nature, until God sets us free. After He sets us free we have a new master, God, and we freely choose to follow Him.

 

[webdog]

It's just like Joseph said. We follow our master, our sin nature, until God sets us free. After He sets us free we have a new master, God, and we freely choose to follow Him.

...then why do those who are set free still follow the old master from time to time? What kind of master would allow a slave to return to his old master on occasion?

 

[whatever]

...then why do those who are set free still follow the old master from time to time? What kind of master would allow a slave to return to his old master on occasion?

I guess God just doesn't know what He is doing?

Maybe you can tell me why.

 

[webdog]

I guess God just doesn't know what He is doing?

Maybe you can tell me why.

Maybe because the slave / master analogy is just that...an analogy, and doesn't fit freedom to choose. Ever think that unbelievers are slaves to their master (satan) because they CHOOSE to be? If you are going to use the master / slave analogy, it has to be applied across the board. If we are allowed freedom to choose while serving one master, the freedom has to be there for the other as well.

 

[whatever]

Maybe because the slave / master analogy is just that...an analogy, and doesn't fit freedom to choose. Ever think that unbelievers are slaves to their master (satan) because they CHOOSE to be? If you are going to use the master / slave analogy, it has to be applied across the board. If we are allowed freedom to choose while serving one master, the freedom has to be there for the other as well.

Of course unbelievers are slaves to their master because they choose to be. Absolutely.

But to say that because those with two natures can choose according to either nature, then those with one nature can also choose according to either nature, is just illogical. (Not to mention unbiblical.)

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Webdog,

My pastor is currently preaching on this very subject in the evening service. His main text is found in Romans 7 and 8. He is preaching on the doctrine of the mortification of sin.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[webdog]

Of course unbelievers are slaves to their master because they choose to be. Absolutely.

But to say that because those with two natures can choose according to either nature, then those with one nature can also choose according to either nature, is just illogical. (Not to mention unbiblical.)

That's not what I'm saying. It's not about who has one nature, and who doesn't. You initially stated that once we have a "new master" our freedom to choose begins, which is illogical. Why, if God's grace is irresistable, would man not choose that which were irresistable, instead of sin? It is repeatedly stated that man in an unregenerated state will only choose that which his nature allows...sin. Well, the flip side is we are "new creations" when regenerated, so why would man EVER choose sin? The Holy Spirit seems powerless to keep His "new creation" from serving the old master. The only logical (and biblical) stance is man is free to choose in EITHER state.

 

[Salamander]

I have said no such thing. Would you and webdog please quit slandering me by making things up and attributing them to me?

Joseph Botwinick

Hmmm? So asking you a question is slander?

Your "ascertain" that there are any differences in the referenced "Word" in all your verses contributed, undoubtedly enhance the fact that Jesus is the Word.

Now if you're trying to separate Jesus from the Written Word, may I suggest you are in error to do so?

Oh no! I just "slandered" you again, sorry.

The effects of Calvinism are this: less witnessing, less commitment to continue to witness, and complacency towards lost souls and seeing to it they are witnessed to regularly.

Jesus will judge the world after the Millenium, just before He judges the nations as either sheep or goat nations, until then: Jesus came not into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.raise: :Fish:

 

[Salamander]

Umm, the passage is perfectly clear, in the KJB anyway. You are servant to whom you obey, that is done by choice. But it is also accomplished by the snatching of the flesh-hook one is become ensnared with when they become addicted to sin. regardless, choice was first.

Did Eve choose to sin? Or was it ordained of God for all men to fall? She chose, God chose to redeem all who will obey His Gospel. Adam and Eve obviously chose to put on the skins of the animals instead of the fig leaves they originally tried.

Jesus condescended to reason with all men over their sin nature and offer them ALL salvation. men choose to believe and be converted by the Spirit of God or they choose not to obey.raying:

Obedience to the Gospel is the key, one does that by choice.
raise: :Fish: raise:

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Hmmm? So asking you a question is slander?

Your "ascertain" that there are any differences in the referenced "Word" in all your verses contributed, undoubtedly enhance the fact that Jesus is the Word.

Now if you're trying to separate Jesus from the Written Word, may I suggest you are in error to do so?

Oh no! I just "slandered" you again, sorry.

The effects of Calvinism are this: less witnessing, less commitment to continue to witness, and complacency towards lost souls and seeing to it they are witnessed to regularly.

Jesus will judge the world after the Millenium, just before He judges the nations as either sheep or goat nations, until then: Jesus came not into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.raise: :Fish:

How old are you? 12? Come back when you grow up a bit and learn how to have an intelligent conversation. You have not mastered that skill yet. I am finished casting pearls before swine here.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[whatever]

That's not what I'm saying. It's not about who has one nature, and who doesn't. You initially stated that once we have a "new master" our freedom to choose begins, which is illogical.

That's not what I said at all. While lost we freely choose according to our sin nature. When God gives us a new nature we freely choose according to that new nature.

Why, if God's grace is irresistable, would man not choose that which were irresistable, instead of sin?

I could explain what irresistible grace means, and more importantly what it doesn't mean, but that would take us further outside the topic. Want to go?

It is repeatedly stated that man in an unregenerated state will only choose that which his nature allows...sin. Well, the flip side is we are "new creations" when regenerated, so why would man EVER choose sin? The Holy Spirit seems powerless to keep His "new creation" from serving the old master. The only logical (and biblical) stance is man is free to choose in EITHER state.

Nope, you're missing it again. Two natures = conflicting choices. One nature = consistent choices. That's the logical and biblical stance. If you were correct then what Paul said about natural man not being able to understand spiritual things would have to go out the window. "Sure", you would have to say, "he can understand spiritual things. He just doesn't choose to."

 

[Salamander]

How old are you? 12? Come back when you grow up a bit and learn how to have an intelligent conversation. You have not mastered that skill yet. I am finished casting pearls before swine here.

Joseph Botwinick

It may be, Brother, that you are posting in the wrong topic. the "ad homenim" topic is different than this one. This one is about the effects of Calvinism.

Since you seem to advocate Calvinism, your response is just another effect transposed by the Calvinist.

Also, since your comment to the effect of "casting pearls before swine" is such of the general application, may I suggest you don't call everyone on the BB "swine"?

If I were only 12 years old, then one might consider how it is I have amazed such a "scholar" as yourself, but since I am a little older than 12, you must not be the "scholar" you think you are?

I can only suppose you to think you have "mastered" the skill of intelligent conversation, but if I did, I would have to correct myself.

Must you come across so angry every time some one asks you a question?raying:

raise: :Fish: raise:

 

[Salamander]

Umm, the natural man cannot discern the things of the Spirit for he is yet carnal, just as the Corinthians were yet carnal.

But the natural man by his conscience can discern things that are spiritual, but he has no power to recognize them as from God. He is not subject to only discern natural things limited to only sin, his conscience will not permit that unless he is reprobate.

All men cannot discern the Spirit until conviction for sin occurs, when that does occur, it is man who chooses to obey the Spirit or turn a deaf ear.

The regenerate man can discern the things of the Spirit as they that are of God, but his choices will lead him in either direction to whom it is he is the servant to: the nature of sin, or the Spirit.

For one to maintain a consistent walk with the Lord, one must obey the Spirit fully. One who isn't fully consistent in their walk will make accusations against their brethren. It wouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure out who fits that description.raying:

raise: :Fish: raise:

 

[2BHizown]

I dont think your 'sarcasm' is a fruit of the Spirit!

For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God!
James 1 : 20

Kindness and brotherly love accomplish much more for the Lord!

 

[Salamander]

I dont think your 'sarcasm' is a fruit of the Spirit!

For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God!
James 1 : 20

Kindness and brotherly love accomplish much more for the Lord!

What "sarcasm"?

And why do you exhibit wrath?

Then why the judgemental attitude?raying: